Cube Size: 605
Breakdown: 80 Each Color, 50 Multicolor, 80 Land, 55 Artifacts 10 Testing Cards 10 "Fatties"
Standard or Theme Cube: Standard
Snow Lands: No
Average # Players: 5-8
Powered?: No
Portal?: Yes
"Un-" Cards: No
Banned Cards for Power-Level: Yes (More than any non-Pauper cube you'll ever see)
Banned Cards for Time Constraints: No
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Sideboards?: Yes
Even Color Balance: Yes
Perfect Creature/Non-Creature Balance: No
Gold Balance: Allied Colors get 5 cards, Enemy Colors get 4
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Yes/Yes/Yes
Color Triggers as Gold: Yes
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No
Cube CMC: 3.13 (Gonna have to work on that)
Commentary
There's a great deal of explaining to do. This Cube was designed by two people. We don't play Magic in any significant fashion anymore, and Cube has become more of a game of its own. The source of this disconnect is the fact that we both stopped playing for the same reasons, and upon building a Cube we sought to remedy those issues we had with the game to preserve the game we enjoyed. I guess it would just be best to get into the fundamental decisions we made.
There are no Planeswalkers in this Cube. Both of us quit primarily because of the way Planeswalkers warped the game. We both feel that their introduction to the game has fueled a mad frenzy of power creep in creatures and further devalued spells, especially enchantments. I'll try not to proselytize to much, but I feel this is the best decision we have made, and having now seen Planeswalkers being just as dominant and warping in people's Cubes as they are in constructed I believe that any environment without them has better balance, is more interactive, and more skill intensive. People complain about the design of this or that Planeswalker, but I think the root of the problem is that Planeswalkers are fundamentally flawed in their design, and the whole game suffers for it.
The second major difference is that damage still uses the stack. When the rules changes were announced and damage no longer used the stack, that was the real severing point for my playgroup. We had already lost interest in Planeswalker: The Gathering, and now there was an additional gap between the game we liked and the one that actually existed. Since none of us have interest in learning the new rules, revaluing cards based on them, or adjusting our habits, we simply won't. In our world Mogg Fanatic and Ghost Council of Orzov are still full powered, and cards like Ember Hauler, Sacrifice effects, and tricks like Curfew are all more powerful than you're probably used to. That's just the way it is. For similar reasons Mana Burn still exists to us. It rarely comes up, but we all find it flavorful and it occasionally forces minor play decisions which is a nuanced tactical element that we enjoy.
The final issue is one of power level. Neither of us have ever been fans of high power level in cards or formats. (We both count Kamigawa among our favorite sets for Limited and Constructed) I generally feel high powered cards actually take more fun and skill out of the game than they add. It's fair to say we come down on the far end of the 'Powered/Unpowered' debate, but further more many cards being printed today are simply so much more powerful than those being printed before the cycle of power creep started that they are nearly as overpowered as the old broken staples. Everything in between gets left behind. So we decided to make sweeping bans, more than any other non-Pauper Cube you'll ever see. A power cap has been established and is enforced on each color, each effect, each cmc. It can float, and we can change it as we see fit, but many of the most powerful new cards to get printed simply won't be included because they are way above our power level. Usually this is an issue with creatures since they just keep getting better and better, but it has come up with other things. Mana is a related issue, we also feel that the availability of efficient mana fixing has become to prevelant and to powerful as wizards rushes to sell as many packs of gold cards as possible (yall ready for hook-line-sinker, return to rav?!?! lolololcashcow) The mana situation will be discussed in more depth later, but for now suffice it to say that we have crafted an environment that favors two color or two with a splash decks, and makes a four color deck something that must be really worked for and worth it. (The mana is also tied into our desire for each color to have identity by way of a strict color pie, but again more on that later)
No doubt these changes will seem like the petulance of a stubborn child to some of you. Perhaps like the nasal whining of a disgruntled table top playgroup. I image myself in your head, reading my words, and hear flashes of all the chicken littles over the years of Magic. They'd been around since 6th Edition changes and before, cropping up when card frames changed, tournament attendance dropped, arcane spells were printed, against anything new and strange. The truth is we were ptq grinders at heart. All we ever wanted was to be presented with balanced and dynamic metagames, and have a crack at them. We wanted Modular card design and room for exploration, not linear themes and the support cards to prop them up. A puzzle and the tools to test it, not a script with variance. To some extent we are like all the others calling out 'the sky is falling', because for us it was the end. Magic certainly wasn't ending (though I do fear for the long term health of the game, if not it's profitability), but it was ending for us. The game that Wizards presented simply ceased being fun for us, so we left. When we began building a Cube though we quickly approached it as a chance to recapture the game we actually enjoyed. Magic now has a past and present self. Two different games that emphasis two different aspects of an underlying system. We simply choose to play the older game.
In order to recreate the relative game balance and color interactions of the game we liked we instituted the aforementioned relative power level ceiling and began building a world out of new cards and old that would behave as though it were the old game. It became something of a time capsule. However the first list was clunky, full of washed up stars of metagames past, many of whom were quickly washed away. The possibilities of treating Cube not as a part of Magic but as it's own game in which we could craft our own meta became intoxicating. What we have now is less homage to the past, and more fantasy meta. We're always looking for new cards, and we keep finding them because as we've found when you eliminate a percentage of the top tier cards you simultaneously make playable a while range of not only cards but entire strategies. The payoff if well worth the sacrifice. More unique cards come to the forefront giving each color more identity, placing a higher emphasis on role playing cards in a deck, drafting an ad hoc theme, and (we believe) skill in both deck crafting and gameplay. This applies to the mana as well. Mana is the most important aspect of Magic, and strict controls on the fixing available gives you a tight reign on archetypes, colors, and even specific cards. As it stands some of the most powerful cards we have are (some on the watch list alongside a mana drain that was a high mistake and about to be cut) Tradewind Rider, BitterBlossom, Recurring Nightmare, and SoFI/SoLS.
So that's how this odd Cube came to be with its damage on the stack and huge banned list that includes Planeswalkers. I am fully aware that my voice is that of a minority, an outlier, that the changes to the game are viewed mostly favorably by the larger playing community. I'll always have in mind just how odd the constraints of my Cube are, and take it into account when giving advice to others on Cube, but I hope it won't keep me from benefiting from the serious Cube discussion that goes on here. Hope you all enjoy the glimpse of another Cube world, and I hope it amused or interested you. Feel free to leave feedback or questions. I'll be adding more extensive card choice and theme explanations to each color over time, as well as a change log with topical discussion, but for now it's just small blurbs.
yeah, yeah, i'm getting to that. here's a start:
All Planeswalkers
All 6 Titans (Wurmcoil)
All Power (including Sol Ring, Grim Monolith and the like)
Fetchlands (it might make sense if you'd read the commentary)
Recurring Nightmare
Bitterblossom
No longer updating my Cube here. CubeTutor is p sweet.
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Could you give us a list of banned cards/ mechanics, since this would make it easier for us when we make suggestions later.
This is tough because I really didn't have a list in mind as I made it, I just sort of evaluated on a case by case basis as I went along. I'll try to clarify and include something in the OP later on if I can.
While we already had a 6 man draft where 5 of the players ended up splashing this color, some of the best decks that were drafted with my cube have almost been mono U.
You don't necessarily have to enable a whole "Combo-Reanimator.dec", but creatures will end up in the graveyard anyway and getting them back for 2-3 mana can be a huge tempo swing, especially if they have some useful etb triggers. Lets say you evoke Turn 2 Shriekmaw and just get it back with Necromancy. Or abusing Recurring Nightmare with Palinchron and another critter.
There are so many synergistic cards in the cube, that sooner or later someone will get some combo deck going and even if I am not pushing this, there were decks that have been able to win without casting a single creature.
I definitely see your point, and I'm not averse to a few reanimation spells (Makeshift Mannequin and the less popular Beacon are in already) I'd just really rather not have something like Entomb. Cards like Necromancy are certainly going to be "in the Bullpin" so to speak, to be potentially swapped in.
Speaking of Recurring Nightmare, what do you think of it for this Cube? I love the card and it's obviously great, but I'm worried it might be to far above the power level for the rest of the Cube. I know it's a tough call to make without experience with this Cube (from either of us) but do you think you could hazard an educated guess?
I have solved that problem through counting those lands in their appropriate color, meaning that you could add a spell for it instead of a crappy land / play more than 2 lands in other colors.
Yeah, I saw that. Definitely an option I'll consider. Green does have a couple more playable non basics worth inclusion, but really I'm happy with the 10 card suite except that one stupid Black spot. : -(
Maybe we'll get a decent one sometime soon.
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Sry that I can't give a better comment on this, because i am about to meet with some of my friends.
You could replace the black cycle land with an old copy of Dark Ritual, that has "Mana Source" as its card type.
But before I leave, here is a list of all the broken card links:
* Eight and a Half Tails » Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (by approximate card name)
* Yosei, Morning Star » Yosei, the Morning Star (by approximate card name)
* Condem » Condemn (by approximate card name)
* O-Ring » Oblivion Ring (by approximate card name)
* Wrath » Wrath of God (by approximate card name)
* Kira, Great Glass Spinner » Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (by approximate card name)
* Man O'War » Man-o'-War (by approximate card name)
* Meloku » Meloku the Clouded Mirror (by approximate card name)
* Ancestral Visions » Ancestral Vision (by approximate card name)
* Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni » Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni (by approximate card name)
* Zo-Zu, The Punisher » Zo-Zu the Punisher (by approximate card name)
* Arc Slogger » Arc-Slogger (by approximate card name)
* Sakura Tribe Elder » Sakura-Tribe Elder (by approximate card name)
* Debtor's Knell » Debtors' Knell (by approximate card name)
* Boggart Ram Gang » Boggart Ram-Gang (by approximate card name)
* Ana Battle Mage » Ana Battlemage (by approximate card name)
* Talisman Dominance » Talisman of Dominance (by approximate card name)
* Everflow Chalice » Everflowing Chalice (by approximate card name)
* Sword of L&S » Sword of Kaldra (by approximate card name)
* Sword of F&I » Sword of Fire and Ice (by approximate card name)
* Mind Slaver » Mindslaver (by approximate card name)
* Stomping Grounds » Stomping Ground (by approximate card name)
* Brushlands » Brushland (by approximate card name)
* Scalding Tarns » Scalding Tarn (by approximate card name)
* Creeping Tar Pits » Creeping Tar Pit (by approximate card name)
* Savanah Lions » Savannah Lions (by similar pronounciation)
* Stonecloacker » Stonecloaker (by similar pronounciation)
* DoJ » Day of Judgement (by similar pronounciation)
* Vendillion Clique » Vendilion Clique (by similar pronounciation)
* Oona's Proweler » Oona's Prowler (by similar pronounciation)
* Royal Assasin » Royal Assassin (by similar pronounciation)
* Cemetary Reaper » Cemetery Reaper (by similar pronounciation)
* Thoughtsieze » Thoughtseize (by similar pronounciation)
* Sulfiric Vortex » Sulfuric Vortex (by similar pronounciation)
* Sulphurous Blast » Sulfurous Blast (by similar pronounciation)
* Incindiary Command » Incendiary Command (by similar pronounciation)
* Noble Heirarch » Noble Hierarch (by similar pronounciation)
* Grand Arbiter Augustine IV » Grand Arbiter Augustin IV (by similar pronounciation)
* Quasali Pridemage » Qasali Pridemage (by similar pronounciation)
* Trusty Machette » Trusty Machete (by similar pronounciation)
* Jitte » Jihad (by similar pronounciation)
* Eratic Portal » Erratic Portal (by similar pronounciation)
* Nevynirral's Disk » Nevinyrral's Disk (by similar pronounciation)
* Stripmine » Strip Mine (by similar pronounciation)
* Ice Flow » Ice Floe (by similar pronounciation)
* Treetop Villiage » Treetop Village (by similar pronounciation)
* Halamir Depths » Halimar Depths (by similar pronounciation)
Unfortunately, the following card names could not be identified:
* Tradwind Riders
* Mind Wretch
* Raind of Tears
* Dryad Sophisticare
* Vines of the Vastwood
* Cetravolver
* Karpusal Forest
* Dread Sanctuary
Oh man! You just saved me so much time! I thought I was going to have to go through and find these mistakes by hand. I knew there were many, as I use notepad for my Magic stuff to avoid OpenOffice whining about misspellings all the time. (Not to mention my spelling isn't stellar to begin with)
Thanks again for your help!
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
I looked over your multicolor, since that tends to be where I have the most to say, and saw a couple of omissions I'd like to point out. I don't know if they're banned, but if so feel free to ignore them. When I suggest cuts, I'll try to suggest multiples in case I hit a pet card, and I'll list them in the order I'd cut them.
Nemesis of Reason has been nothing but awesome for us. There's precious little removal that can take care of him and he wins in 3-4 turns. I'd cut Memory Plunder here, as it's often just too hard to cast. If not it, then Moroii.
I looked over your multicolor, since that tends to be where I have the most to say, and saw a couple of omissions I'd like to point out. I don't know if they're banned, but if so feel free to ignore them. When I suggest cuts, I'll try to suggest multiples in case I hit a pet card, and I'll list them in the order I'd cut them.
Thanks for your input! There are pet cards in currently, but they won't last so no worries. This is basically just a first draft, and I expect to make a great deal of changes still before I even finish assembling it.
Since combing the Cube section I've been glad to hear the consensus on Absorb. I didn't include it because I didn't think it would be good enough, but that was before I realized it was actually possible to get a deck with a critical mass of counters to make them good, and before I realized how much good burn there is in Red.
Wall of Denial was an intentional exclusion. I find it to be so overwhelmingly simple that it's aggravating. It's the best wall ever, and was engineered to be so. That kind of card is grating to me. Ultimately the decision whether or not to include it will be up to the playgroup, as it is a notable exclusion, but I don't think I'm alone in my distaste for it as a card among my friends.
Vedalken Outlander --> Absorb is a pretty easy switch to make though.
Nemesis of Reason has been nothing but awesome for us. There's precious little removal that can take care of him and he wins in 3-4 turns. I'd cut Memory Plunder here, as it's often just too hard to cast. If not it, then Moroii.
Memory Plunder is a card I like, but I knew it wasn't solid. Wrexial and Nemesis were both on the short list of U/B and I'm glad to hear a card as cool as Nemesis has enjoyed good results!
Memory Plunder --> Nemesis of Reason is another easy swap.
I think I kind of neglected B/G after the initial run at it because Pulse seems like an auto include, and Scarab seems significantly worse than his T2 days with the awful new damage rules.
I didn't even have Leech on my "bullpin" list. You really think he'd work out that well? Even above cards like Nath of the Gilt Leaf,Life/Death, and Lord of Extinction?
Grave-Shell Scarab --> Maelstrom Pulse
Your R/B section is missing a card. Is that intentional?
No, Blightning just got left off as I was copy/paste-ing.
While I'm looking at that section though, I noticed a lot of positive mention of Void on the threads, and it sounds like it could easily replace Wrecking Ball. I'd also kind of like to include Shanbling Remains in there, but am unsure what to cut.
Excluded partially because I am sick of it beating face in extended, and partially because it's just a boring an uninteresting card to me. I'd much rather have Thornscape Battlemage in the slot, but again this is the kind of thing that'll be decided by a vote amongst the play group.
Thanks for all your suggestions! : -)
I'll try to adress eidolon's post later tonight, but in case I don't get to it before you start on your expanded post I'll save you some time by letting you know that the following won't make it in:
Echo
Shadow
Planeswalkers
The aggressive 1 and 2 drops in green.
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Void is difficult. I added it recently and haven't seen it do much YET, but I'm hopeful. I'd still play it over Fulminator Mage, who is really just a bad Stone Rain without damage stacking, or Wrecking Ball. Sorry I can't be of more help there. (Seriously, if you think Grave-Shell Scarab got bad, wait until you play with that mage.)
Lord of Extinction is only good if you play a lot of multiplayer, and even then he's not great (no evasion). Nath could be good, but I've never played him, so I don't know. (Even cold, I'd wager he's better than Vulturous Zombie/Plague Boiler) However, I don't think he could hold a candle to the Leech. I guess it depends on how viable you want aggro decks to be, but a 4/4 for 2 is just too good IMO. Leech's power scales down the more players you add, so if this cube is all about multiplayer you could forgo him, but otherwise I think he needs to come in. As far as things that might persuade me to expand my multicolor section, he's at the top of that list.
Void is difficult. I added it recently and haven't seen it do much YET, but I'm hopeful. I'd still play it over Fulminator Mage, who is really just a bad Stone Rain without damage stacking, or Wrecking Ball. Sorry I can't be of more help there. (Seriously, if you think Grave-Shell Scarab got bad, wait until you play with that mage.)
Mage I now see as a versatility card. He's either a mediocre stone rain or a mediocre dude. I thought he'd be nice backup to the LD support in Black and Red. If he proves to be as bad as you say, I can easily imagine him losing out to Shambling Remains.
Lord of Extinction is only good if you play a lot of multiplayer, and even then he's not great (no evasion). Nath could be good, but I've never played him, so I don't know. (Even cold, I'd wager he's better than Vulturous Zombie/Plague Boiler)
Vulturous Zombie is a card I have fond memories of from Ravnica and am sort of hoping it turns out playable. I'm not sure why no one loves Plague Boiler though. Pernicious Deed seems so good that even a crappy version seems playable.
However, I don't think he could hold a candle to the Leech. I guess it depends on how viable you want aggro decks to be, but a 4/4 for 2 is just too good IMO. Leech's power scales down the more players you add, so if this cube is all about multiplayer you could forgo him, but otherwise I think he needs to come in. As far as things that might persuade me to expand my multicolor section, he's at the top of that list.
No card is ruled out because of cost. I'm fine with some well made proxies being in until the real deal is obtained. (If it even is in some cases)
I really just didn't think there was enough aggro support in BG, even with all the cards you listed above. I mean, it's a 560 card pool and Green was intentionally denied some of its choice 1 and 2 drops. And without him being a 4 of like in constructed he doesn't seem like the kind of card BG midrange would really be looking for. I'll keep him in mind though, and he may wind up in.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Neither Shambling Remains nor Fullminator mage is good enough for the cube,, may I introduce our goblin friend in Murderous Redcap, he is a house.
Plague Boiler is bad because it takes so long to activate, you drop on turn 3, the fastest you can sweep is on turn 5 assuming no mana accel. And it dies to disenchant :/, its just too slow and unreliable.
Also I think thats the problem with aggro support, aggro guys are not "interesting" because they are not trying to be cute, they are just going to beat face. Although I don't think I would want to draft aggro in your cube due to the inability to close the game out while ahead because of your card choices, so as long as you are happy with people just duking it out with a variety of midrange/control deck I think its fine not to include aggro dudes.
Lastly, agree with everything eidolon232 said, especially the changes.
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I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
Oddly enough I was thinking about posting an update to this thread yesterday anyway.
It's not quite done yet, but I assure you this is still a live Cube and I have recently begun working on revamping it due to renewed interest from my playgroup, and some decisions we made about what we want it to be like.
Cabal Pit doesn't seem to bad. We'll have to see what the land section looks like when this all shakes out though before I can determine if it's in, as we may be adding cycling lands instead of a second "color aligned" land.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Have you considered adding Aether Adept? It acts like Man 'O War and has been decent here.
I haven't updated this in some time.
I will be soon though, and AEther adept is a definite include.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
this Cube and entire OP was just updated from the like 1.5.03 list to the 2.5.23 list or something. anyway, hope you liked my words about magic
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
A little formatting in that spoilered list of thoughts would make it much more readable.
I won't argue against anyone using their cube to get the play environment that you like, but having played on both sides of that rules change, getting rid of damage on the stack creates many more interesting decisions than damage-on-the-stack ever did. Damage-on-the-stack was just a techy rules interaction that it was always correct to exploit.
To each their own, though. I'd love to see Mogg Fanatic get errata so that it works comparably. New text would basically be like this:
Updated Mogg Fanatic - R
Creature - Goblin
Sacrifice ~: Choose one or both, deal 1 damage to target creature or player, or deal 1 damage to target creature blocking or blocked by ~.
1/1
A little formatting in that spoilered list of thoughts would make it much more readable.
unlucky you reading it right away, i wrote that all earlier and just threw it on here. to sick of cube work right now to finish everything.
as for damage, i've heard all the arguments for it and have even played with it, suffice to say i remain unconvinced of it's superiority. i accept that i am the tiny minority, but fortunately don't have to give half a **** since our playgroup is probably the only one who'll ever be interested in playing the format and it's what they all know so oh well.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
I like unconventional lists like this, but have no idea how to look at it really. Are there any unconventional allstars which have really shined in your cube, i.e. cards that aren't generally considered among the top 20 in each color but thrive in your particular environment?
The problem with not using the official rules is that new cards are designed to work under the current rules and their powerlevel might change significantly under different rules.
not so much a problem. we pour over new blocks for an update just like everyone else. many cards are deemed to good because new cards are full of power creep, but some are very good without being bonkers, and can often help fill roles different colors want, and bring the power level into equilibrium.
for instance ember hauler is a house with damage on the stack and red wanted the solid 2 drop anyway.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
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Obligatory Stolen Basic Info Section!
Cube Size: 605
Breakdown: 80 Each Color, 50 Multicolor, 80 Land, 55 Artifacts 10 Testing Cards 10 "Fatties"
Standard or Theme Cube: Standard
Snow Lands: No
Average # Players: 5-8
Powered?: No
Portal?: Yes
"Un-" Cards: No
Banned Cards for Power-Level: Yes (More than any non-Pauper cube you'll ever see)
Banned Cards for Time Constraints: No
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Sideboards?: Yes
Even Color Balance: Yes
Perfect Creature/Non-Creature Balance: No
Gold Balance: Allied Colors get 5 cards, Enemy Colors get 4
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Yes/Yes/Yes
Color Triggers as Gold: Yes
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No
Cube CMC: 3.13 (Gonna have to work on that)
Commentary
There's a great deal of explaining to do. This Cube was designed by two people. We don't play Magic in any significant fashion anymore, and Cube has become more of a game of its own. The source of this disconnect is the fact that we both stopped playing for the same reasons, and upon building a Cube we sought to remedy those issues we had with the game to preserve the game we enjoyed. I guess it would just be best to get into the fundamental decisions we made.
There are no Planeswalkers in this Cube. Both of us quit primarily because of the way Planeswalkers warped the game. We both feel that their introduction to the game has fueled a mad frenzy of power creep in creatures and further devalued spells, especially enchantments. I'll try not to proselytize to much, but I feel this is the best decision we have made, and having now seen Planeswalkers being just as dominant and warping in people's Cubes as they are in constructed I believe that any environment without them has better balance, is more interactive, and more skill intensive. People complain about the design of this or that Planeswalker, but I think the root of the problem is that Planeswalkers are fundamentally flawed in their design, and the whole game suffers for it.
The second major difference is that damage still uses the stack. When the rules changes were announced and damage no longer used the stack, that was the real severing point for my playgroup. We had already lost interest in Planeswalker: The Gathering, and now there was an additional gap between the game we liked and the one that actually existed. Since none of us have interest in learning the new rules, revaluing cards based on them, or adjusting our habits, we simply won't. In our world Mogg Fanatic and Ghost Council of Orzov are still full powered, and cards like Ember Hauler, Sacrifice effects, and tricks like Curfew are all more powerful than you're probably used to. That's just the way it is. For similar reasons Mana Burn still exists to us. It rarely comes up, but we all find it flavorful and it occasionally forces minor play decisions which is a nuanced tactical element that we enjoy.
The final issue is one of power level. Neither of us have ever been fans of high power level in cards or formats. (We both count Kamigawa among our favorite sets for Limited and Constructed) I generally feel high powered cards actually take more fun and skill out of the game than they add. It's fair to say we come down on the far end of the 'Powered/Unpowered' debate, but further more many cards being printed today are simply so much more powerful than those being printed before the cycle of power creep started that they are nearly as overpowered as the old broken staples. Everything in between gets left behind. So we decided to make sweeping bans, more than any other non-Pauper Cube you'll ever see. A power cap has been established and is enforced on each color, each effect, each cmc. It can float, and we can change it as we see fit, but many of the most powerful new cards to get printed simply won't be included because they are way above our power level. Usually this is an issue with creatures since they just keep getting better and better, but it has come up with other things. Mana is a related issue, we also feel that the availability of efficient mana fixing has become to prevelant and to powerful as wizards rushes to sell as many packs of gold cards as possible (yall ready for hook-line-sinker, return to rav?!?! lolololcashcow) The mana situation will be discussed in more depth later, but for now suffice it to say that we have crafted an environment that favors two color or two with a splash decks, and makes a four color deck something that must be really worked for and worth it. (The mana is also tied into our desire for each color to have identity by way of a strict color pie, but again more on that later)
No doubt these changes will seem like the petulance of a stubborn child to some of you. Perhaps like the nasal whining of a disgruntled table top playgroup. I image myself in your head, reading my words, and hear flashes of all the chicken littles over the years of Magic. They'd been around since 6th Edition changes and before, cropping up when card frames changed, tournament attendance dropped, arcane spells were printed, against anything new and strange. The truth is we were ptq grinders at heart. All we ever wanted was to be presented with balanced and dynamic metagames, and have a crack at them. We wanted Modular card design and room for exploration, not linear themes and the support cards to prop them up. A puzzle and the tools to test it, not a script with variance. To some extent we are like all the others calling out 'the sky is falling', because for us it was the end. Magic certainly wasn't ending (though I do fear for the long term health of the game, if not it's profitability), but it was ending for us. The game that Wizards presented simply ceased being fun for us, so we left. When we began building a Cube though we quickly approached it as a chance to recapture the game we actually enjoyed. Magic now has a past and present self. Two different games that emphasis two different aspects of an underlying system. We simply choose to play the older game.
In order to recreate the relative game balance and color interactions of the game we liked we instituted the aforementioned relative power level ceiling and began building a world out of new cards and old that would behave as though it were the old game. It became something of a time capsule. However the first list was clunky, full of washed up stars of metagames past, many of whom were quickly washed away. The possibilities of treating Cube not as a part of Magic but as it's own game in which we could craft our own meta became intoxicating. What we have now is less homage to the past, and more fantasy meta. We're always looking for new cards, and we keep finding them because as we've found when you eliminate a percentage of the top tier cards you simultaneously make playable a while range of not only cards but entire strategies. The payoff if well worth the sacrifice. More unique cards come to the forefront giving each color more identity, placing a higher emphasis on role playing cards in a deck, drafting an ad hoc theme, and (we believe) skill in both deck crafting and gameplay. This applies to the mana as well. Mana is the most important aspect of Magic, and strict controls on the fixing available gives you a tight reign on archetypes, colors, and even specific cards. As it stands some of the most powerful cards we have are (some on the watch list alongside a mana drain that was a high mistake and about to be cut) Tradewind Rider, BitterBlossom, Recurring Nightmare, and SoFI/SoLS.
So that's how this odd Cube came to be with its damage on the stack and huge banned list that includes Planeswalkers. I am fully aware that my voice is that of a minority, an outlier, that the changes to the game are viewed mostly favorably by the larger playing community. I'll always have in mind just how odd the constraints of my Cube are, and take it into account when giving advice to others on Cube, but I hope it won't keep me from benefiting from the serious Cube discussion that goes on here. Hope you all enjoy the glimpse of another Cube world, and I hope it amused or interested you. Feel free to leave feedback or questions. I'll be adding more extensive card choice and theme explanations to each color over time, as well as a change log with topical discussion, but for now it's just small blurbs.
Cube :
On CubeTutor: VibeBox's Cube
On TappedOut: VibeBox's Cube
On DeckStats: VibeBox's Cube
Banned List:
yeah, yeah, i'm getting to that. here's a start:
All Planeswalkers
All 6 Titans (Wurmcoil)
All Power (including Sol Ring, Grim Monolith and the like)
Fetchlands (it might make sense if you'd read the commentary)
Recurring Nightmare
Bitterblossom
No longer updating my Cube here. CubeTutor is p sweet.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Obv switch is obv. : -P Thanks!
Poor Skyhunter. You have such better art. : -(
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
This is tough because I really didn't have a list in mind as I made it, I just sort of evaluated on a case by case basis as I went along. I'll try to clarify and include something in the OP later on if I can.
Glad to hear it! : -)
I definitely see your point, and I'm not averse to a few reanimation spells (Makeshift Mannequin and the less popular Beacon are in already) I'd just really rather not have something like Entomb. Cards like Necromancy are certainly going to be "in the Bullpin" so to speak, to be potentially swapped in.
Speaking of Recurring Nightmare, what do you think of it for this Cube? I love the card and it's obviously great, but I'm worried it might be to far above the power level for the rest of the Cube. I know it's a tough call to make without experience with this Cube (from either of us) but do you think you could hazard an educated guess?
Yeah, I saw that. Definitely an option I'll consider. Green does have a couple more playable non basics worth inclusion, but really I'm happy with the 10 card suite except that one stupid Black spot. : -(
Maybe we'll get a decent one sometime soon.
Oh my. I'm gonna have to chalk that one up to "Cubing Under the Influence".
Replaced with Rude Awakening that I wanted in anyway. Nice catch.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Now I have some weird PSA forming in my imagination.
"Friends don't let friends cube drunk."
"Cut the drinking before you cut top tier cards."
"A draft with a draft is never the right thing."
Lol. I like 'em. (Though it wasn't alcohol I was under the influence of)
Oh man! You just saved me so much time! I thought I was going to have to go through and find these mistakes by hand. I knew there were many, as I use notepad for my Magic stuff to avoid OpenOffice whining about misspellings all the time. (Not to mention my spelling isn't stellar to begin with)
Thanks again for your help!
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Absorb is stupid good. Wall of Denial is even better than that. I only run 4 of each color pair, and those 2 are the all stars of U/W. I would cut 2 of Vedalkan Outlander, Court Hussar, and Teferi's Moat.
Nemesis of Reason has been nothing but awesome for us. There's precious little removal that can take care of him and he wins in 3-4 turns. I'd cut Memory Plunder here, as it's often just too hard to cast. If not it, then Moroii.
Maelstrom Pulse is a second copy of Vindicate most of the time. Yeah, it can't hit lands, but B/G isn't usually all that concerned with them. Putrid Leech is also amazing. If I had this big of a multicolor section I'd run him in a heartbeat. I'd cut two of Plague Boiler, Vulturous Zombie, and Grave-Shell Scarab.
Your R/B section is missing a card. Is that intentional?
No Wild Nacatl? If you're running Kird Ape, you gotta run Kird Kitty.
Have fun!
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Thanks for your input! There are pet cards in currently, but they won't last so no worries. This is basically just a first draft, and I expect to make a great deal of changes still before I even finish assembling it.
Since combing the Cube section I've been glad to hear the consensus on Absorb. I didn't include it because I didn't think it would be good enough, but that was before I realized it was actually possible to get a deck with a critical mass of counters to make them good, and before I realized how much good burn there is in Red.
Wall of Denial was an intentional exclusion. I find it to be so overwhelmingly simple that it's aggravating. It's the best wall ever, and was engineered to be so. That kind of card is grating to me. Ultimately the decision whether or not to include it will be up to the playgroup, as it is a notable exclusion, but I don't think I'm alone in my distaste for it as a card among my friends.
Vedalken Outlander --> Absorb is a pretty easy switch to make though.
Memory Plunder is a card I like, but I knew it wasn't solid. Wrexial and Nemesis were both on the short list of U/B and I'm glad to hear a card as cool as Nemesis has enjoyed good results!
Memory Plunder --> Nemesis of Reason is another easy swap.
I think I kind of neglected B/G after the initial run at it because Pulse seems like an auto include, and Scarab seems significantly worse than his T2 days with the awful new damage rules.
I didn't even have Leech on my "bullpin" list. You really think he'd work out that well? Even above cards like Nath of the Gilt Leaf,Life/Death, and Lord of Extinction?
Grave-Shell Scarab --> Maelstrom Pulse
No, Blightning just got left off as I was copy/paste-ing.
While I'm looking at that section though, I noticed a lot of positive mention of Void on the threads, and it sounds like it could easily replace Wrecking Ball. I'd also kind of like to include Shanbling Remains in there, but am unsure what to cut.
Excluded partially because I am sick of it beating face in extended, and partially because it's just a boring an uninteresting card to me. I'd much rather have Thornscape Battlemage in the slot, but again this is the kind of thing that'll be decided by a vote amongst the play group.
Thanks for all your suggestions! : -)
I'll try to adress eidolon's post later tonight, but in case I don't get to it before you start on your expanded post I'll save you some time by letting you know that the following won't make it in:
Echo
Shadow
Planeswalkers
The aggressive 1 and 2 drops in green.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Lord of Extinction is only good if you play a lot of multiplayer, and even then he's not great (no evasion). Nath could be good, but I've never played him, so I don't know. (Even cold, I'd wager he's better than Vulturous Zombie/Plague Boiler) However, I don't think he could hold a candle to the Leech. I guess it depends on how viable you want aggro decks to be, but a 4/4 for 2 is just too good IMO. Leech's power scales down the more players you add, so if this cube is all about multiplayer you could forgo him, but otherwise I think he needs to come in. As far as things that might persuade me to expand my multicolor section, he's at the top of that list.
EDIT: You're running Vampire Lacerator, Carnophage, Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf. Putrid Leech will fit in just fine. Also Sarcomancy in black, though you might be holding out on that one thanks to costs.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Mage I now see as a versatility card. He's either a mediocre stone rain or a mediocre dude. I thought he'd be nice backup to the LD support in Black and Red. If he proves to be as bad as you say, I can easily imagine him losing out to Shambling Remains.
Vulturous Zombie is a card I have fond memories of from Ravnica and am sort of hoping it turns out playable. I'm not sure why no one loves Plague Boiler though. Pernicious Deed seems so good that even a crappy version seems playable.
No card is ruled out because of cost. I'm fine with some well made proxies being in until the real deal is obtained. (If it even is in some cases)
I really just didn't think there was enough aggro support in BG, even with all the cards you listed above. I mean, it's a 560 card pool and Green was intentionally denied some of its choice 1 and 2 drops. And without him being a 4 of like in constructed he doesn't seem like the kind of card BG midrange would really be looking for. I'll keep him in mind though, and he may wind up in.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Plague Boiler is bad because it takes so long to activate, you drop on turn 3, the fastest you can sweep is on turn 5 assuming no mana accel. And it dies to disenchant :/, its just too slow and unreliable.
Also I think thats the problem with aggro support, aggro guys are not "interesting" because they are not trying to be cute, they are just going to beat face. Although I don't think I would want to draft aggro in your cube due to the inability to close the game out while ahead because of your card choices, so as long as you are happy with people just duking it out with a variety of midrange/control deck I think its fine not to include aggro dudes.
Lastly, agree with everything eidolon232 said, especially the changes.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Azorius Guildmage
darkblast > cry of contrition
Probably cut 10 artifacts for 1 of each guildmage and get rid of each 3-color multicolored spell. I really like the idea of including some tolaria west and dimir houseguard and of course, clutch of the undercity and prolly mystic teachings
Best of luck. Don't listen to all the haters.
needs moar force spike
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
VibeBox has a link to his cube on his signature. He posted somewhere else, I saw it, then I came
Me too. Beyond Volrath's Stronghold, this is the next best black land, IMO.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
It's not quite done yet, but I assure you this is still a live Cube and I have recently begun working on revamping it due to renewed interest from my playgroup, and some decisions we made about what we want it to be like.
Cabal Pit doesn't seem to bad. We'll have to see what the land section looks like when this all shakes out though before I can determine if it's in, as we may be adding cycling lands instead of a second "color aligned" land.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I haven't updated this in some time.
I will be soon though, and AEther adept is a definite include.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I won't argue against anyone using their cube to get the play environment that you like, but having played on both sides of that rules change, getting rid of damage on the stack creates many more interesting decisions than damage-on-the-stack ever did. Damage-on-the-stack was just a techy rules interaction that it was always correct to exploit.
To each their own, though. I'd love to see Mogg Fanatic get errata so that it works comparably. New text would basically be like this:
Updated Mogg Fanatic - R
Creature - Goblin
Sacrifice ~: Choose one or both, deal 1 damage to target creature or player, or deal 1 damage to target creature blocking or blocked by ~.
1/1
unlucky you reading it right away, i wrote that all earlier and just threw it on here. to sick of cube work right now to finish everything.
as for damage, i've heard all the arguments for it and have even played with it, suffice to say i remain unconvinced of it's superiority. i accept that i am the tiny minority, but fortunately don't have to give half a **** since our playgroup is probably the only one who'll ever be interested in playing the format and it's what they all know so oh well.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
not so much a problem. we pour over new blocks for an update just like everyone else. many cards are deemed to good because new cards are full of power creep, but some are very good without being bonkers, and can often help fill roles different colors want, and bring the power level into equilibrium.
for instance ember hauler is a house with damage on the stack and red wanted the solid 2 drop anyway.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube