I simply no longer have an elspeth.... but jump to replace elspeth, now we're talking.....
Healing salve has gone in and out many times. I like it, it steals games. People I play with haven't played as long as I have and wanted it cut. I did. Put it back in and it steals games still. They don't draft it, their loss.
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again, think I mentioned this before, but in the end, the only card that is "off" is magister sphinx. Healing salve gets a team 3 life. Each player has what ever their teams life total is for life. There is no 2HG halving of life going on to determine a players life total. A players life total is their teams life total.
I was never joking about healing salve. Our cubes are a lot more aggressive then anything anyone else here has especially when you can pick on one player.
Jump is not replacing meloku. But I do want to cut down blue still as it is the heaviest colour in my cube while everything else is even. Meloku got cut.
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This cube is like opposite land. It's a magical place where Healing Salve is good, combo is amazing, Genesis is bad and Meloku is cuttable. Simply amazing.
This cube is like opposite land. It's a magical place where Healing Salve is good, combo is amazing, Genesis is bad and Meloku is cuttable. Simply amazing.
I feel the same about aftershock in every other cube here, but I can get past it and still provide good advice.
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I feel the same about aftershock in every other cube here, but I can get past it and still provide good advice.
That's one card that you don't run that others do. I'm talking about like the majority of the cube.
It seems like everything I can learn about cube drafting, design and card quality/evaluations everywhere else in the world does not apply to your cube. It's hard to give advice when cards like Elspeth, Genesis and Meloku are being cut from the cube. Makes zero sense to me. Especially when they're being replaced by Summoning Trap, Healing Salve and other ...sub par... cards.
You don't listen to people's advice, and you get really defensive when me make suggestions for you. You play by completely different rules than we do too, so that makes it even harder to provide advice you can use. Your cube is just different. Your playgroup/playstyles are just different. There's nothing I can apply from normal Magic and Normal cubing that applies to your cube, and vice versa.
Good cards are good cards. I'm not saying cards like elspeth and meloku are bad. I did say however that I have a heavy blue component in my cube and that I do need to make cuts. Meloku is a casualty of that. Something like summoning trap again stems from the heavy blue, but really I just wanted to try it out. elspeth got cut becuase OMG I trade cards some times too. Aftershock is a bad card, but it works for you in cube because of the limited singleton nature of it. That is fine. I get love/hate split for healing salve here. I've been around that card for so long that I'm aware of what it is capable of. I'm the only cube in the city running bazaar. That is a card that fluctuates in value every draft.
I do listen to peoples advice, but it also has to be advice. I don't take "play this card" as advice unless it is accompanied with some reason as to why to play it. I recognize we play differently so I have to take that into account (pulse tracker is a 1 mana bolt, every turn unless it is blocked).
It is also easy to get defensive when you don't read what has been written ie why I cut genesis, elspeth, meloku. I can always apply normal magic to any cube I look at, and I do; This is why I say aftershock is bad, normal magic says it is bad.
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I did say however that I have a heavy blue component in my cube and that I do need to make cuts. Meloku is a casualty of that.
Well, Meloku is widely considered to be in to top 10 overall blue cards, so unless you're using <10 blue cards, he should be one of them.
And as far as cutting good cards and putting in bad ones goes, the burden of proof lies on you to prove why they're good and the others are bad. Not the other way around. You cut Genesis (easily one of green's 10 best cards) and added in Summoning Trap (a card that most people would consider to be completely awful). Likewise for Elspeth, and Meloku. Everybody already knows why those cards are amazing. You haven't convinced anyone that they don't belong. So, when you make those kinds of changes, expect people to say "play Meloku because it's amazing", and "Don't cut Elspeth for Healing Salve" because we already KNOW that that's the right thing. Through extensive playtesting and collective cube experience.
You play a unique cube with house rules that skew cards beyond normal cube-drafters abilities to identify with your choices. I can't evaluate cards in your cube, because it's not normal Magic. You're not playing 1v1, and you don't start with 20 life per person. I've been playing Magic since 1994, and I can't evaluate cards for your cube the same way I've done for the last 16 years, because you're playing a practically different game. I know this is true when cards like Elspeth, Genesis and Meloku disappear and stuff like Healing Salve and Summoning Trap come in.
And it's not because your cube is any "faster" or "more aggressive" than others. Aggro decks win my cube drafts the majority of the time, because it's a healthy, enabled archetype.
I really can't comprehend the logic behind removing Meloku and leaving in Erayo. How does that even make sense? This cube is definitely played in backwardsville.
Just how many cubes are in your city that you mention that? Here we have only one cube in each of the larger cities.
About the cuts, I agree with everyone else here that your cube is just too different from normal magic and other cubes to expect any useful and constructive advice from us.
I second this notion. These changes are completely incomprehensible for me. Even with special houserules, as long as the game still resembles Magic in most of its parts, Meluko should still be a gameending beast that doesn't bow to removal, Genesis should still be the second best recursion engine(*) in all colors and the best engine card in its color and Elspeth should still be the second best(**) planeswalker.
Is jace 2 this strong? I rank Elspeth as number 1 from all the rest.
Just how many cubes are in your city that you mention that? Here we have only one cube in each of the larger cities.
Of the cubes I know about, there are at least 6 in the city.
And as far as cutting good cards and putting in bad ones goes, the burden of proof lies on you to prove why they're good and the others are bad
This goes to show why people think americans are idiots. I have given reasons for my changes. You have either chosen to ignore them or still refrain from reading them.
I DO NOT OWN AN ELSPETH.
Can you see that reason now? I have never questioned the quality of cards like elspeth. I have removed it from my list because I do not own one. I never claimed something like summoning trap was a tier 1 card by any means, only that I wanted to try it out and it helps with my problem of heaby blue.
This is why I feel a need to be defensive. I am constantly being attacked or no reason. I'm sorry all you saw was elspeth out, healing salve in. If you are only going to complain about how we play here or other such beefs, keep it to yourself.
I give eidolon credit. I felt we were on the wrong foot in the begining but we got past it. You could learn from him.
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Maybe you could learn from everyone else? Just a thought.
You don't own an Elspeth. Fine. So Healing Salve goes in? No. If I trade away my Library of Alexandria, I'm not going to replace it with a Sorrow's Path. Another decent cubeworthy card should replace it until another one can be obtained. And what about Meloku and Genesis? You OWN them, and you cut them. This is proof that your cube is entirely different than everyone elses. And it's not just those cards! Like half of your list would be considered unplayable to the majority of cube communities, and the majority of the traditional amazing cards you've dismissed as being bad. Our advice can't help a cube that is so dramatically different than the rest of the Magic playing universe, and your advice can't help those that play other cubes.
Playing with your cube and your rules is different Magic. I think it would do me some good to remember this when I'm talking to you. It'd be like me building a cube where each player has infinite life, and you have to draft an alternate win condition to be victorious. Then posting my cube list, and asking for advice. Me cutting Meloku from my crazy rules cube would make sense, and so would running cards like Brain Freeze. I'll keep that in mind from this point, and just remember that the advice you need and the advice you give is completely based of the bizarre house rules you draft with. It's not your fault, you just cube/play with different rules and that can't help but influence how you evaluate cards. That's the only explanation that makes any sense to me.
One last thing... it has nothing to do with being an American. I think it's ridiculous that you even went there actually. It has something to do with you thinking that your advice is worth consideration, and then dismissing everybody elses.
Maybe you could learn from everyone else? Just a thought.
You don't own an Elspeth. Fine. So Healing Salve goes in? No. If I trade away my Library of Alexandria, I'm not going to replace it with a Sorrow's Path. Another decent cubeworthy card should replace it until another one can be obtained. And what about Meloku and Genesis? You OWN them, and you cut them. This is proof that your cube is entirely different than everyone elses. And it's not just those cards! Like half of your list would be considered unplayable to the majority of cube communities, and the majority of the traditional amazing cards you've dismissed as being bad. Our advice can't help a cube that is so dramatically different than the rest of the Magic playing universe, and your advice can't help those that play other cubes.
Playing with your cube and your rules is different Magic. I think it would do me some good to remember this when I'm talking to you. It'd be like me building a cube where each player has infinite life, and you have to draft an alternate win condition to be victorious. Then posting my cube list, and asking for advice. Me cutting Meloku from my crazy rules cube would make sense, and so would running cards like Brain Freeze. I'll keep that in mind from this point, and just remember that the advice you need and the advice you give is completely based of the bizarre house rules you draft with. It's not your fault, you just cube/play with different rules and that can't help but influence how you evaluate cards. That's the only explanation that makes any sense to me.
QFT
One last thing... it has nothing to do with being an American. I think it's ridiculous that you even went there actually. It has something to do with you thinking that your advice is worth consideration, and then dismissing everybody elses.
Cheers.
Yeah, that part just seemed incredibly rude and worthless. The only people on MTGS that I've put on my ignore list are spammers who post fake rumors and... WeaponX. I gave him the benefit of the doubt despite being incredibly rude, condescending, defensive and immature (and yeah, if you use terrible cards like Healing Salve that are only "good" with them having surprise value, then expect to be criticized as the burden of proof is on you to prove why they don't suck. Just because no one rightfully expects terrible cards to be played, their surprise value doesn't make them playable. Are cards like that terrible gain4/gain8 landfall good in Zendikar draft? Is Spell Pierce good because it could potentially blow someone out who casts a non-creature spell [like what almost happened to me at the WWK PR?] No, it still sucks.) but yeah, that comment put him on my ignore list.
Seriously, just... wow, what were you thinking; how could you think that idiotic stereotypical statements was in any way a good idea? I'd go into some huge rant about how my parents and relatives worked themselves to the bone to make it here... but I'm done here.
Somewhat offtopic, there are (aside from the commons cube and my own) at least 3 other cubes that I know of here.
First post now reflects the current state of my cube.
Summoning trap has seen play once so far in a zoo-ish deck. Six mana one drops aren't so hot. It'll will probaby find it's way out, but for now it will stay in until it sees some more play to better judge it or if I can cut enough blue cards.
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I'm not American (and not Canadian too) and I do think your cube is much too alien for me to understand. That said, the Elspeth attack was pretty useless and ignorant. Just to that specific card you gave a logical reason, and that cut was the most offended.
I'm the only cube in town, that's why I have so many players
As for the card choices, I can understand you not liking some "great" cards, but there is no way Healing Salve should be in. Everytime someone maindecks a Healing Salve, a kitten gets crushed by an elephant. Harm's Way provides a similar effect, except it doesn't cause kitten deaths. I'd go with that.
I have to give props to eidolon... Your suggestion of Augustine IV pushed it over and had replaced azorious guildmage the day you mentioned it. It has performed excellently so far and no one is missing the guildmage, so everyone is a winner.
In other news, we did an 8 man 1v1 cube friday. The mono blue artifact deck crushed face. Not many decks were able to handle turn 1 lodestone golem followed by turn 2 inkwell leviathan... or the alternate turn 3 brain freeze win.
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I don't recall what the exact plays were as far as the storm count is concerned but i think it was something like this on turn 3 with academy in play:
candelabra, mana crypt, mana vault, mox diamond, frantic search, gush, upheaveal, mana crypt, mana vault, candelabra, mox diamond, brain freeze. I know he got there another time with timetwister and timespiral chaining as well.
similar cards were involved in lodestone golem turn 2, leviathan turn 3
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I don't recall what the exact plays were as far as the storm count is concerned but i think it was something like this on turn 3 with academy in play:
candelabra, mana crypt, mana vault, mox diamond, frantic search, gush, upheaveal, mana crypt, mana vault, candelabra, mox diamond, brain freeze. I know he got there another time with timetwister and timespiral chaining as well.
similar cards were involved in lodestone golem turn 2, leviathan turn 3
The key here is that you can do alot of crazy stuff with mana crypt, mana vault, mox diamond on turn 1... I can think of many other good plays that involves 6 mana on turn 1.
isochron scepter cut (the hoop dream that never happens), and as a result who/what/where/when/why also cut as scepter was the reason to play it.
Nature's claim, tormod's crypt, dust bowl, abeyance, and summoning trap were also cut.
Finally had space for loxodon warhammer and I'm trying explorer scope.
Because of how we draft. I tried out truce... it lasted a single draft.
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ok.. I'll apologize in advance for any duplicate info here.
CUT:
akroma's vengance
elspeth
seal of cleansing
rout
sejiri merfolk
meloku
laquatus champion
tendrils of agony
nantuko vigilante
genesis
countryside crusher
IN:
summoning trap
slavering nulls
sudden death
terastadon
profane command
blackmail
wrecking ball
nightscape familiar
vexing shusher
aether vial
healing salve
rushwood legate
goblin chieftan
life from the loam
lodestone golem
That is all the changes I have listed, when I go through the cube again I will update the first post.
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Healing salve has gone in and out many times. I like it, it steals games. People I play with haven't played as long as I have and wanted it cut. I did. Put it back in and it steals games still. They don't draft it, their loss.
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I was never joking about healing salve. Our cubes are a lot more aggressive then anything anyone else here has especially when you can pick on one player.
Jump is not replacing meloku. But I do want to cut down blue still as it is the heaviest colour in my cube while everything else is even. Meloku got cut.
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I feel the same about aftershock in every other cube here, but I can get past it and still provide good advice.
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That's one card that you don't run that others do. I'm talking about like the majority of the cube.
It seems like everything I can learn about cube drafting, design and card quality/evaluations everywhere else in the world does not apply to your cube. It's hard to give advice when cards like Elspeth, Genesis and Meloku are being cut from the cube. Makes zero sense to me. Especially when they're being replaced by Summoning Trap, Healing Salve and other ...sub par... cards.
You don't listen to people's advice, and you get really defensive when me make suggestions for you. You play by completely different rules than we do too, so that makes it even harder to provide advice you can use. Your cube is just different. Your playgroup/playstyles are just different. There's nothing I can apply from normal Magic and Normal cubing that applies to your cube, and vice versa.
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Good cards are good cards. I'm not saying cards like elspeth and meloku are bad. I did say however that I have a heavy blue component in my cube and that I do need to make cuts. Meloku is a casualty of that. Something like summoning trap again stems from the heavy blue, but really I just wanted to try it out. elspeth got cut becuase OMG I trade cards some times too. Aftershock is a bad card, but it works for you in cube because of the limited singleton nature of it. That is fine. I get love/hate split for healing salve here. I've been around that card for so long that I'm aware of what it is capable of. I'm the only cube in the city running bazaar. That is a card that fluctuates in value every draft.
I do listen to peoples advice, but it also has to be advice. I don't take "play this card" as advice unless it is accompanied with some reason as to why to play it. I recognize we play differently so I have to take that into account (pulse tracker is a 1 mana bolt, every turn unless it is blocked).
It is also easy to get defensive when you don't read what has been written ie why I cut genesis, elspeth, meloku. I can always apply normal magic to any cube I look at, and I do; This is why I say aftershock is bad, normal magic says it is bad.
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
Well, Meloku is widely considered to be in to top 10 overall blue cards, so unless you're using <10 blue cards, he should be one of them.
And as far as cutting good cards and putting in bad ones goes, the burden of proof lies on you to prove why they're good and the others are bad. Not the other way around. You cut Genesis (easily one of green's 10 best cards) and added in Summoning Trap (a card that most people would consider to be completely awful). Likewise for Elspeth, and Meloku. Everybody already knows why those cards are amazing. You haven't convinced anyone that they don't belong. So, when you make those kinds of changes, expect people to say "play Meloku because it's amazing", and "Don't cut Elspeth for Healing Salve" because we already KNOW that that's the right thing. Through extensive playtesting and collective cube experience.
You play a unique cube with house rules that skew cards beyond normal cube-drafters abilities to identify with your choices. I can't evaluate cards in your cube, because it's not normal Magic. You're not playing 1v1, and you don't start with 20 life per person. I've been playing Magic since 1994, and I can't evaluate cards for your cube the same way I've done for the last 16 years, because you're playing a practically different game. I know this is true when cards like Elspeth, Genesis and Meloku disappear and stuff like Healing Salve and Summoning Trap come in.
And it's not because your cube is any "faster" or "more aggressive" than others. Aggro decks win my cube drafts the majority of the time, because it's a healthy, enabled archetype.
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Just how many cubes are in your city that you mention that? Here we have only one cube in each of the larger cities.
About the cuts, I agree with everyone else here that your cube is just too different from normal magic and other cubes to expect any useful and constructive advice from us.
Is jace 2 this strong? I rank Elspeth as number 1 from all the rest.
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Of the cubes I know about, there are at least 6 in the city.
This goes to show why people think americans are idiots. I have given reasons for my changes. You have either chosen to ignore them or still refrain from reading them.
I DO NOT OWN AN ELSPETH.
Can you see that reason now? I have never questioned the quality of cards like elspeth. I have removed it from my list because I do not own one. I never claimed something like summoning trap was a tier 1 card by any means, only that I wanted to try it out and it helps with my problem of heaby blue.
This is why I feel a need to be defensive. I am constantly being attacked or no reason. I'm sorry all you saw was elspeth out, healing salve in. If you are only going to complain about how we play here or other such beefs, keep it to yourself.
I give eidolon credit. I felt we were on the wrong foot in the begining but we got past it. You could learn from him.
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
You don't own an Elspeth. Fine. So Healing Salve goes in? No. If I trade away my Library of Alexandria, I'm not going to replace it with a Sorrow's Path. Another decent cubeworthy card should replace it until another one can be obtained. And what about Meloku and Genesis? You OWN them, and you cut them. This is proof that your cube is entirely different than everyone elses. And it's not just those cards! Like half of your list would be considered unplayable to the majority of cube communities, and the majority of the traditional amazing cards you've dismissed as being bad. Our advice can't help a cube that is so dramatically different than the rest of the Magic playing universe, and your advice can't help those that play other cubes.
Playing with your cube and your rules is different Magic. I think it would do me some good to remember this when I'm talking to you. It'd be like me building a cube where each player has infinite life, and you have to draft an alternate win condition to be victorious. Then posting my cube list, and asking for advice. Me cutting Meloku from my crazy rules cube would make sense, and so would running cards like Brain Freeze. I'll keep that in mind from this point, and just remember that the advice you need and the advice you give is completely based of the bizarre house rules you draft with. It's not your fault, you just cube/play with different rules and that can't help but influence how you evaluate cards. That's the only explanation that makes any sense to me.
One last thing... it has nothing to do with being an American. I think it's ridiculous that you even went there actually. It has something to do with you thinking that your advice is worth consideration, and then dismissing everybody elses.
Cheers.
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QFT
Yeah, that part just seemed incredibly rude and worthless. The only people on MTGS that I've put on my ignore list are spammers who post fake rumors and... WeaponX. I gave him the benefit of the doubt despite being incredibly rude, condescending, defensive and immature (and yeah, if you use terrible cards like Healing Salve that are only "good" with them having surprise value, then expect to be criticized as the burden of proof is on you to prove why they don't suck. Just because no one rightfully expects terrible cards to be played, their surprise value doesn't make them playable. Are cards like that terrible gain4/gain8 landfall good in Zendikar draft? Is Spell Pierce good because it could potentially blow someone out who casts a non-creature spell [like what almost happened to me at the WWK PR?] No, it still sucks.) but yeah, that comment put him on my ignore list.
Seriously, just... wow, what were you thinking; how could you think that idiotic stereotypical statements was in any way a good idea? I'd go into some huge rant about how my parents and relatives worked themselves to the bone to make it here... but I'm done here.
Somewhat offtopic, there are (aside from the commons cube and my own) at least 3 other cubes that I know of here.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Summoning trap has seen play once so far in a zoo-ish deck. Six mana one drops aren't so hot. It'll will probaby find it's way out, but for now it will stay in until it sees some more play to better judge it or if I can cut enough blue cards.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I'm the only cube in town, that's why I have so many players
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As for the card choices, I can understand you not liking some "great" cards, but there is no way Healing Salve should be in. Everytime someone maindecks a Healing Salve, a kitten gets crushed by an elephant. Harm's Way provides a similar effect, except it doesn't cause kitten deaths. I'd go with that.
In other news, we did an 8 man 1v1 cube friday. The mono blue artifact deck crushed face. Not many decks were able to handle turn 1 lodestone golem followed by turn 2 inkwell leviathan... or the alternate turn 3 brain freeze win.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Team games.
I don't recall what the exact plays were as far as the storm count is concerned but i think it was something like this on turn 3 with academy in play:
candelabra, mana crypt, mana vault, mox diamond, frantic search, gush, upheaveal, mana crypt, mana vault, candelabra, mox diamond, brain freeze. I know he got there another time with timetwister and timespiral chaining as well.
similar cards were involved in lodestone golem turn 2, leviathan turn 3
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
The key here is that you can do alot of crazy stuff with mana crypt, mana vault, mox diamond on turn 1... I can think of many other good plays that involves 6 mana on turn 1.
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isochron scepter cut (the hoop dream that never happens), and as a result who/what/where/when/why also cut as scepter was the reason to play it.
Nature's claim, tormod's crypt, dust bowl, abeyance, and summoning trap were also cut.
Finally had space for loxodon warhammer and I'm trying explorer scope.
Because of how we draft. I tried out truce... it lasted a single draft.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord