Since i was asked to show my cube this is the state it's in right now with approximations given as changes were probably made that i forgot to note as cards are constantly being introduced/removed to optimize the cube.
General info
Basic Info
Cube Size: ~460 Cards
Breakdown: ~56/colour, exception is blue. it's curently heavier to see how some cards fare
Standard or Theme Cube: Standard
Snow Lands: No
Average # Players: Four
How Often Drafted: four a week minimum
Card Selection
Powered?: Yes
Portal?: Yes
"Un-" Cards: Yes if deemed good
Banned Cards for Power-Level: No
Banned Cards for Time Constraints: No
Banned Cards for "Fun" factor: No
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: open ended. used for any "draft" format
Sideboards?: No usually, yes for 1v1
Even Color Balance: almost
Perfect Creature/Non-Creature Balance: No, there shouldn't be
Gold Balance: yes
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Yes/Yes/No
Color Triggers as Gold: No
Perfectly Balanced CMC: no, should not be balanced
Cube CMC: 2.75 or 0.42 if you count lands
How our 2v2 works:
Teams are randomly determined and seating goes Team A1 Team B1 Team A2 Team B2.
Draft follows standard drafting (left, right, left).
There is no talking/communication during the draft.
The players then make a deck out of the cards they drafted. There is no shared card pool. You are essentially trying to make a dake that can beat 2 people on it's own merit.
Then magic is played.
Each team starts with 25 life.
All players are viable targets. Something like Flame Rift will deal 8 damage to each team. A card like Time Walk affects only the person who plays it. Magister Sphinx simply makes a teams life 10.
One of the challenges is the "open discussion." You are talking to your partner across the table while trying to be as specific as possible, but while also trying to be vague so opponents don't know what you have planned.
Games are best 2/3.
If anything is not clear feel free to ask, on to the cube.
The land has proven itself. It allows for every deck the ability/chance at having a good mana base. It helps any deck to splash for a card. Aggro getting a timewalk is good, the aggro guy who can not only hate draft a time walk and play it, better.
It's not that there is a "gap" in the mana curve for creatures. It is more that optimal creatures have yet to be found tied in with what a given colour can offer. The "gap" as you have it illustrated is fine. Why do I want to open a pack of all turn seven plays when i can open packs that aid in drafting a mana curve for a deck? That is the best way I can think to explain that right now.
The 5W's is in the u/r slot becuase that is where it ended up. Didn't feel like swerve was cutting it so it got replaced. Not to say it won't be tried again though.
Mox Crystal is there in part because we all played 250, the format got ruined by the 5 color council/zombor. And now we have a bunch of 250 players here with mox crystals. It's close in power to an actual mox, so cube worthy as a result.
I'll try to make those name changes when i get the chance, it was my fault for just trying to get this up fast.
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I agree with WeaponX about land quantity in the cube. I run 65 lands plus the color-based ones in each combination. My cube is only a little bigger than his, and I have like 77 lands or so. I love having lots of nonbasics in my cube.
Interesting cube list man. There are lots of little changes I'd make, and I'd even out the color #s so everything has an equal opportunity to be drafted. Other than the obvious storm-enablers (which I won't touch on to avoid all hell breaking loose) there are only some other minor replacements I'd suggest.
All up, pretty nice cube. I do have some queries, however. And it's always easier to start with the omissions.
You like Gemstone Mine over Grand Colliseum? And no karoos? Do you have an abiding hatred of ETBT lands?
Spectral Searchlight is terrible now that you can't manaburn your opponents with it.
Gifts Ungiven is probably worthy if you have a 'combo' cube?
Mind Twist is a 1CC black spell but red X spells get their own category. Also, no profane command? You do not appear to have any CCX spells in the cube.
@wtwlf123: In spite of what you may think by the numbers, all colours are equally draftable. I'm always open to hear changes. My cube is always evolving as cards come in and out.
@magicmerl: Just a generic land reply. The cube is generally fast, as a result ETBT and karoo lands are slow and a liability.
Searchlight is good in my cube as the common way we cube is 2v2. The ability to help out a partner is great, so it essentially just replaced darksteel ingot.
Gift's Ungiven always seems to limited in what it can do. It always seems to be only good in a certain deck, and then that deck needs the appropriate cards to take advantage of it. That is essentially why entomb and intuition ended up being cut years ago. They were just too narrow.
I will apologize for the mind twist categorizing. Again, typed the list to get it up. I will fix it when i get the chance.
Condescend I'm thinking about. Ink Eyes will probably get back in. Just say no to seething song.
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I totally agree on Gifts Ungiven being too narrow to be playable. The reason that card is good in constructed is because when you gifts for four different cards you get exactly what you need regardless of what your opponent chooses and win the game shortly after. Thats totally not what happens with that card in cube.
Condescend is a pretty solid counterspell and probably has room in a cube of any size. Ink-eyes has always been horrible for us and i dont think black needs it. Seething song is not needed either.
Gifts is one of the more overrated cards in Cube of all time from my experience. I'm sure many people have had fine experiences with it, but overall it was very underwhelming for us. I've played with and against the card in many constructed formats, and it's beyond insane there, but in cube where you can't craft a deck around the card it was pretty mediocre.
Gifts is one of the more overrated cards in Cube of all time from my experience. I'm sure many people have had fine experiences with it, but overall it was very underwhelming for us. I've played with and against the card in many constructed formats, and it's beyond insane there, but in cube where you can't craft a deck around the card it was pretty mediocre.
I don't agree. Worst case scenario you choose 4 different lands at instant speed, and get two of them, and thins your library of four lands. This situation will only come up late game, where thinning for 4 is relevant.
Most often I play it with either a Genesis, Deep Analysis or other similar cards. This will generally be really broken. But "just" picking the best 4 answers to a certain situation is often the best way to use it, even though you'll "only" get the two worst. Getting 2/4 removal will most often be good enough even if it's the two worst of them.
Wut? Gifts is one of the highest picks in the best colour. Instant-speed drawing the third and fourth best card in your deck at any given time whilst simultaneously shipping cards to the graveyard for threshold/renanimation/Life from the Loam madness... for four?! Totally nuts.
I don't agree. Worst case scenario you choose 4 different lands at instant speed, and get two of them, and thins your library of four lands. This situation will only come up late game, where thinning for 4 is relevant.
Most often I play it with either a Genesis, Deep Analysis or other similar cards. This will generally be really broken. But "just" picking the best 4 answers to a certain situation is often the best way to use it, even though you'll "only" get the two worst. Getting 2/4 removal will most often be good enough even if it's the two worst of them.
And did I mention it's Instant card draw?
I'm not going to really try to convince anybody not to run Gifts. Obviously people have good experiences with it as it sees play in a large percentage of cubes. I feel like you are looking at it "glass half-full", while I look at thinning four lands, or getting the 3rd and 4th best card in a pile (while losing the 1st and 2nd best) in a "glass-half empty" light. Most instant card draw doesn't prevent you from getting the best cards in your deck into your hand, while with Gifts as long as your opponent is paying attention that shouldn't happen.
In short I can understand why people play Gifts in their cubes, but I feel it's power (similar to Yawgmoth's Will) is extremely overstated.
In short I can understand why people play Gifts in their cubes, but I feel it's power (similar to Yawgmoth's Will) is extremely overstated.
I agree. We've found it to be solid and occasionally amazing, but we've also found it to be less powerful than our other 4CC blue draw spells, like Fact and Deep Analysis. With less redundancy and recurrsion, Gifts has too often played like a card that is neither a good source of card advantage, nor a true tutor. It has shined in situations where the board is at an even state, but those times are often difficult to come by by the time you have four mana free in a blue deck.
We still have it in and are giving the card its fair shake.
Gifts Ungiven is completely bonkers. It's a top 20 pick for blue, which says a lot. It goes in any deck that has blue mana available, and is really really good if you have 4 good cards left in your deck.
Wow eidolon, great post. I agree with almost all of it, although I'd have a hard time cutting Momentary Blink, Orim's Thunder, Ranger of Eosfrom white. The first two are staples in my opinion and the third is a card drawer with sufficient 1/1s. In fact, the Ranger is the sort of card I've been thinking of adding to support aggro more.
Edit: I want to have Talismen in my cube, but came to the regretful conclusion that with the size of cube I have (480 cards and looking to get smaller) that Talismen plus signets were just too much mana acceleration/fixing for control.
Gift's has only been the nuts in reanimator, or in the combo deck that can gift's for will, regrowth, eternal witness, win condition. Generally it is just bin 2 good cards and get 2 cards that affect opponent the least.
@eidolon: Momentary blink is a white card, so it's in white. I'm assuming when you cube with your group games go slow. Bounce lands, 4 mana replacements for 1-2cc spells, etc. That won't cut it. I would hate on my second turn to play a bounce land, probably do nothing and walk into my opponents turn three goblin settler as an example. There is no reason to take karoos over duals when they are available. The same is true of the vivid lands. ETBT lands are brutal when there are superior alternatives. Hopefully that will cover some things that i will probably gloss over or just not address.
Knight of meadowgrain and austere command are in the second I find them in one of my piles of cards. Double white cards have to be good. Most people feel white is underpowered. By making white splashable it sees play more. Mother of runes was cut. One more mana generally got you a better creature that already has protection. And mother tended to die after it was played a lot. Debt of loyalty I like so far. If you can play it well, it proves itself over and over. There is no reason not to play kataki. A spalshable aggro body that hinders the artifact deck good.
Looter is actually in again... it was out for like a day. Glen Elendra and similar, I'm not sure how i feel about a lot of these still. I would rather have more "counterspell" cards then the more limited negate/force spike cards. I recognize they are required though all the same... so we will see. Simply no to the blue cuts, not sure what else to say there.
Shriekmaw should be there, my bad if it isn't. Prowler had proven to be bad. Bitterblosom was never good enough. Slaughter pact yes, when i find it like most cards that aren't in yet. Smother also yes. To most of the cuts, no. Gatekeeper was cut after some talks with one of our cube groups.
Almost all of those were in and then got cut. Don't even want to touch aftershock, no one here will take it. For the cuts, akroma has been talked about. We shall see where that goes. Creature based decks love bushwacker.
Still thinking about kodama. The walls are generally no. I want to put in some of the ramp spells. Scute mob... maybe, but it probably won't make it. It doesn't fit into a deck.
I know how it works in 2HG. We do not play 2HG, we play a team format if anything where it simply makes a teams life 10. Gaddock teeg is good in aggro. This is also where communication comes in too, "hey partner, if i play teeg do we win or lose?" Void is bad, too slow. In general, games are going average six turns depending on the "control deck." Namely if it is there and how controlish is it.
Why play signets when i am playing talismans?
Why cut good cards for worse cards?
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His land suggestions are great. Signets are better than Talismans most of the time, plus there are no enemy Talismans, leaving those color combinations with less tools than the others. Bitterblossom is ungodly good. Kataki is like an aggro beater that screws you out of your own moxen and equipment. Mother of Runes is outstanding. In fact, damn near all of eidolons suggestions are gold.
Just because the original dual lands are better than other lands doesn't mean the others shouldn't be run too. The Karoo lands are great in every decktype. Reaching 5 mana with 4 lands is always a good thing.
Sorry if this comes off too strong, but in what universe is Bitterblossom bad? It's a fantastic card in many deck and it combos with any card that loves creatures, gives you life, or stalls the ground. Amazing card.
I also love Mother of Runes, Knight of Meadowgrain, karoos, both green walls (which are cards for green ramp, BTW), and the signets.
Gifts, while not as good as in constructed, is still pretty busted in Cube. Sometimes, it's the only blue card I run. It is especially nice to pair with green (Witness, Regrowth, All Sun's Dawn, Genesis, etc.).
Bounce lands are fine in formats like EDH, not in cube.. unless your cube is slow, then go for it.
Talismans are useful right away, and require nothing else to make them good. Simple example, turn 2 talisman -> one drop VS turn 2 signet go. Sure the turn 4 can be the same, but now aggro deck, control deck, etc can all play these and still keep the pressure that archetype presents.
No karoo lands are not good in every deck type. If you are playing aggro with karoo lands...
enough said.
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I third (fourth?) all the cuts listed above by eidolon, although I personally would keep Pestermite and add Blade of the Sixth Pride to the chopping block for any of his adds. Darn near everything else on his list was cut at some point from my (larger) Cube for being well below-par.
Bouncelands can play fine into aggro strategies. They let you keep a two-land hand that you'd otherwise be forced to mulligan. Pain lands are situationally much better for aggro decks, so the combinations W/R, G/R and B/R do prefer the painlands quite often. The painlands are bad in control though and I would only take painlands if I was choosing different land combinations for each colour pair.
Kataki is an OK card, but white can do better. In many cases, aggro likes fast mana and equipment and Kataki will take up valuable resources... whilst control gets to four mana and sweeps. Debt of Loyalty is also very sub-par IMO - if you can kill the creature easily in combat, then it isn't worth stealing. If you kill-spell it and steal it, well that's card disadvantage and expensively costed to boot. Granted, it's not an effect that's often seen in White, but unfortunately has never been since in any kind of playable form.
Signets are also very much better than Talismans. Talismans are decent, but don't fix two colours at once, which is often relevant.
Aftershock is an all-star for red and, for many (myself incuded), a Cube staple. Find me another card in red that's that versatile for four mana... and all for the paltry cost of 3 life. Kill their threat if behind, kill their land if in front. Kill their Jitte if they're aggro, kill their Forcefield is they're control.
[CARD]
Oona's Prowler[/CARD] is a strong aggro creature that is worth including if you play any reanimator cards.
And lastly, Bitterblossom is a top 10 pick for black. It goes into virtually any deck I can thought-experiment together.
Talismans are decent, but don't fix two colours at once, which is often relevant.
...erm..... yes?????
Tap a land, have signet filter it into 2 colours.
VS
Tap a land for colour and signet for other.
Bitterblossom is not an aggro card, it's too slow. One deck down. In control it will fog the biggest creature to 1 point. Two down. Combo... skullclamp/bitterblossom. Two cards, 1 mana, 1 life ->phyrexian arena, 1 card, 1 life
...moving on.
Bouncelands can play fine into aggro strategies. They let you keep a two-land hand that you'd otherwise be forced to mulligan
What kind of aggro do you play?
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That post was mindboggling. Were you even around during standard whilst BB was legal? It showed everywhere, not just in Faeries. Of course that doesn't always translate into Cube, but I assure you that Bitterblossom is an outstanding aggro card. It's one turn slower than a creature, but gives you a steady stream of creatures for the cost of a point of life, something which, like Phyrexian Arena, is not a major consideration for aggro. It's crazy good with any equipment, allowing recurring beats. It's even more busted with any good sac outlet or Skullclamp as you rightly mentioned. In fact, it would be worth its slot at 2B. It's card advantage after a turn in play, and very few two mana cards afford you that.
Put bluntly, it should be in any size Cube, and certainly should be included over any of the cards that eidolon kindly listed and that others have reaffirmed.
Talismans can make you one mana of a given colour at the cost of a life. Signets can make you two for no life. Those two mana might not be produced by any land you control. This is what I mean by fixing two colours. Arguing that a Talisman can fix two simultaneously because you tap another land is like saying your Mox Jet can fix 5 colours because you played a City of Brass.
And yes, bouncelands can fit into aggro... in exactly the way I described! If I'm picking and choosing lands for Cube, I'll give the aggro pairs the painlands like I described. If you want a homogeneous land distribution (all Shocks, all Fetches, etc.) then Bouncelands are absolutely the way to go. You don't seem to have much by way of counter argument. Try them in aggro, play them at the opportune moment, and see for yourself. Otherwise, the quote in my signature should serve as a point of reference.
Don't take this badly, but don't come on asking for constructive criticism and get butt-hurt when people make a case for known, tried-and-tested, time-honoured Cube staples... and you tell them that they're garbage. We're basically here to help, and like your OP says, optimize your Cube. I suggest implementing every single one of eidolon's changes and going from there... there's a lot of good Cube lists you can work from of all different sizes. And don't delude yourself that most people's Cubes are slow... once properly constructed, good Cubes with good players are capable of blazingly fast aggro as well as control decks.
Bitterblossom is insane. Goes into any black deck and is a powerhouse win condition. In aggro you just poop out evasive dudes every turn and in control it doubles as a pseudo-forcefield that transforms into win condition mode very quickly. Complete nightmare for control decks to deal with and it's really hard to remove as well. Love the art. Love the card.
Don't take this badly, but don't come on asking for constructive criticism and get butt-hurt when people make a case for known, tried-and-tested, time-honoured Cube staples... and you tell them that they're garbage. We're basically here to help, and like your OP says, optimize your Cube.
Some people would rather play Brain Freeze than Bitterblossom, argue that Signets are bad, Karros in the cube make the entire thing too slow, and imply that Mother of Runes sucks. Those people aren't going to be convinced of anything else. No matter if an entire cube community with years of cube experience, thousands and thousands of drafts and pro tour caliber players tells him otherwise. If they don't want help/advice, spend your time helping and debating with those that do.
Agreed with Goodking on all counts, especially on taking criticism, after all, why would you post your cube list if all you're going to do is be defensive and not take any criticism? I find it annoying in general when I make suggestions for cubes and the person just goes "no sorry, no sorry, I'm right and you're wrong" which is pretty much what you (WeaponX) have done since coming (as well as being flatout wrong on some things, like saying that Bitterblossom and Mother of Runes are bad, Empty the Warrens is amazing, signets suck and whatever that mess about bouncelands was) to the forum.
I can somewhat see not wanting to simply change your mind because others have used a card and ceding to groupthink, but that's not even what's happening. All that you've done is be extremely defensive, act rude (see your last few posts in this thread, especially) and add not all that much to the conversation.
General info
Basic Info
Cube Size: ~460 Cards
Breakdown: ~56/colour, exception is blue. it's curently heavier to see how some cards fare
Standard or Theme Cube: Standard
Snow Lands: No
Average # Players: Four
How Often Drafted: four a week minimum
Card Selection
Powered?: Yes
Portal?: Yes
"Un-" Cards: Yes if deemed good
Banned Cards for Power-Level: No
Banned Cards for Time Constraints: No
Banned Cards for "Fun" factor: No
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: open ended. used for any "draft" format
Sideboards?: No usually, yes for 1v1
Even Color Balance: almost
Perfect Creature/Non-Creature Balance: No, there shouldn't be
Gold Balance: yes
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Yes/Yes/No
Color Triggers as Gold: No
Perfectly Balanced CMC: no, should not be balanced
Cube CMC: 2.75 or 0.42 if you count lands
How our 2v2 works:
Teams are randomly determined and seating goes Team A1 Team B1 Team A2 Team B2.
Draft follows standard drafting (left, right, left).
There is no talking/communication during the draft.
The players then make a deck out of the cards they drafted. There is no shared card pool. You are essentially trying to make a dake that can beat 2 people on it's own merit.
Then magic is played.
Each team starts with 25 life.
All players are viable targets. Something like Flame Rift will deal 8 damage to each team. A card like Time Walk affects only the person who plays it. Magister Sphinx simply makes a teams life 10.
One of the challenges is the "open discussion." You are talking to your partner across the table while trying to be as specific as possible, but while also trying to be vague so opponents don't know what you have planned.
Games are best 2/3.
If anything is not clear feel free to ask, on to the cube.
1 student of warfare
1 isamaru, hound of konda
1 savannah lion
1 elite vangaurd
1 swords to plowshares
1 path to exile
1 condemn
1 enlightened tutor
1 land tax
2cc
1 stoneforge mystic
1 mistrel charger
1 kor skyfisher
1 stormfront pegasus
1 acorder paladin
1 knight of the white orchid
1 knight of the meadow grain
1 kor firewalker
1 lone missionary
1 balance
1 disenchant
1 porcelain legionaire
1 blade splicer
1 kor hookmaster
1 mirran crusader
1 palladin en-vec
1 aven rift watcher
1 mystic crusader
1 orim's thunder
1 oblivion ring
1 flickerwisp
1 mentor of the meek
4cc
1 calciderm
1 hero of the bladehold
1 faith's fetters
1 parallax wave
1 ajani goldmane
1 wrath of god
1 day of judgement
1 moat
1 elspeth, knight errant
1 reveillark
1 karmic guide
1 baneslayer angel
6cc
1 sun titan
1 spell pierce
1 word of undoing
1 force spike
1 spell snare
1 stifle
1 preordain
1 ancestral recal
1 mental misstep
1 brainstorm
1 mystical tutor
1 annul
2cc
1 phantasmal image
1 erayo, soratami ascendent
1 spellstutter sprite
1 snapcaster mage
1 remove soul
1 jilt
1 snap
1 standstill
1 memory lapse
1 time walk
1 mana leak
1 miscalculation
1 remand
1 daze
1 counterspell
1 mana drain
1 see beyond
1 negate
1 kira, the glass spinner
1 trinket mage
1 man o' war
1 pestermite
1 vendillion clique
1 frantic search
1 compulsive research
1 timetwister
1 tinker
1 thirst for knowledge
1 complicate
1 windfall
1 jace beleren
1 forbid
4cc
1 sower of temptation
1 glen elendra archmage
1 venser, shaper savant
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 fact or fiction
1 cryptic command
1 deep analysis
1 jace, the mindsculptor
1 mulldrifter
1 timewarp
1 gush
1 submerge
1 bribery
1 force of will
1 misdirection
1 treachery
1 tezzert, the seeker
6cc
1 timespiral
1 upheaveal
1 consecrated sphinx
7+cc
1 inkwell leviathan
1 diregraf ghoul
1 vampire lacerator
1 carrion feeder
1 putrid imp
1 vampiric tutor
1 thoughtseize
1 duress
1 innocent blood
1 reanimate
1 dark ritual
1 inquisition of kozilek
2cc
1 child of night
1 dark confidant
1 bloodghast
1 diabolic edict
1 chainer's edict
1 doom blade
1 go for the throat
1 animate dead
1 dance of the dead
1 exhume
1 hymn to tourach
1 sign in blood
1 demonic tutor
1 zombie infestation
1 smother
1 nameless inversion
1 lillianas specter
1 bone shredder
1 fleshbag marauder
1 vampire nighthawk
1 lilliana of the veil
1 dismember
1 necromancy
1 recurring nightmare
1 hypnotic specter
1 stupor
4cc
1 skinrender
1 consuming vapours
1 damnation
1 makeshift manequinn
1 barter in blood
1 the abyss
1 massacre
1 puppeteer clique
1 shriekmaw
6+cc
1 kokusho the evening star
1 grave titan
1 sheoldred, whispering one
1 mind twist
1 black sun's zenith
1 mogg fanatic
1 goblin guide
1 goblin bushwacker
1 grim lavamancer
1 spikeshot elder
1 firestorm
1 lightning bolt
1 chain lightning
1 burst lightning
1 firebolt
1 red elemental blast
1 lava dart
1 reckless charge
1 pyroblast
1 forked bolt
1 ancient grudge
1 mogg war marshalll
1 tin street hooligan
1 ember hauler
1 stingscourger
1 pyroclasm
1 sudden shock
1 magma jet
1 goblin bombardment
1 incinerate
1 smash to smithereens
1 arc trail
3cc
1 chandra's phoenix
1 goblin runeblaster
1 fire imp
1 squee, goblin nabob
1 goblin chieftan
1 zo-zu the punisher
1 char
1 wheel of fortune
1 volcanic fallout
1 staggershock
1 koth the hammer
1 flametongue kavu
1 avalanche riders
1 anger
1 hero of oxid ridge
1 goblin goon
5cc
1 seige-gang commander
Xcc
1 earthquake
1 rolling earthquake
1 llanowar elves
1 basking rootwalla
1 wild nacatl
1 birds of paradise
1 noble hierarch
1 noxious revival
1 nature's claim
1 rancor
2cc
1 priest of titania
1 elvish visionary
1 were bear
1 rofellos, llanowar emisary
1 mire boa
1 river boa
1 tarmogoyf
1 wild mongrel
1 sakura tribe elder
1 lotus cobra
1 sylvan ranger
1 scavenging ooze
1 survival of the fittest
1 oath of druids
1 sylvan library
1 regrowth
1 bind
1 thornscape battlemage
1 viridian shaman
1 eternal witness
1 troll ascetic
1 ohran viper
1 great sable stag
1 wood elves
1 krosan grip
1 kodama's reach
4cc
1 vengevine
1 blastoderm
1 chameleon colossus
1 obstinate baloth
1 thrun, the last troll
1 garruk wildspeaker
1 harmonize
1 natural order
1 deranged hermit
6+cc
1 pimeval titan
1 pelakka wurm
1 woodfall primus
1 terastadon
1 gaea's revenge
1 mox opal
1 zuran orb
1 mana crypt
1 chrome mox
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 mox emerald
1 mox crystal
1 mox diamond
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1cc
1 pithing needle
1 sensei's divining top
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 expedition map
1 black vise
1 skullclamp
1 pyrite spellbomb
1 aether spellbomb
1 candelabra of tawnos
1 grim monolith
1 mind stone
1 fellwar stone
1 scroll rack
1 umazawa's jitte
1 chaos orb
1 lightning greaves
3cc
1 mimic vat
1 spectral searchlight
1 sword of light and shadow
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of war and peace
1 sword of body and mind
1 vedalken shackles
1 sword of feast and famine
4cc
1 solemn similacrum
1 masticore
1 lodestone golem
1 batterskull
1 memory jar
1 precursor golem
6+cc
1 duplicant
1 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 myr battlesphere
Xcc
1 engineered explosives
10 duals
10 shock
10 fetch
1 blinkmoth nexus
1 mishra's factory
1 mutavault
1 raging ravine
1 celestial colonade
1 lavaclaw reaches
1 stirring wildwood
1 creeping tar pit
1 exotic orchard
1 city of brass
1 reflecting pool
1 wasteland
1 stripmine
1 bazaar of baghdad
1 academy ruins
1 maze of ith
1 library of alexandria
1 tolarian academy
1 tabernacle at pendrall vale
1 kessig wolf run
1 vesuva
1 vavimaya hollow
1 phyrexian tower
1 geist of saint traft
1 augury adept
1 sphjinx of the steel wind
1 magister sphinx
1 vindicate
1 figure of destiny
1 lightning helix
1 ajani vengeant
1 brion stoutarm
1 kitchen finks
1 shadowmage infiltrator
1 psychatog
1 tezzeret, slave of bolas
1 fire/ice
1 electrolyze
1 cerebral vortex
1 trygon predator
1 cold-eyed selkie
1 simic skyswallower
1 edric, spymaster of trest
1 blightning
1 murderous redcap
1 pernicious deed
1 maelstrom pulse
1 tattermunge maniac
1 boggart ram gang
1 giant soilfuge
1 bloodbraid elf
1 vexing shusher
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
It's not that there is a "gap" in the mana curve for creatures. It is more that optimal creatures have yet to be found tied in with what a given colour can offer. The "gap" as you have it illustrated is fine. Why do I want to open a pack of all turn seven plays when i can open packs that aid in drafting a mana curve for a deck? That is the best way I can think to explain that right now.
The 5W's is in the u/r slot becuase that is where it ended up. Didn't feel like swerve was cutting it so it got replaced. Not to say it won't be tried again though.
Mox Crystal is there in part because we all played 250, the format got ruined by the 5 color council/zombor. And now we have a bunch of 250 players here with mox crystals. It's close in power to an actual mox, so cube worthy as a result.
I'll try to make those name changes when i get the chance, it was my fault for just trying to get this up fast.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Interesting cube list man. There are lots of little changes I'd make, and I'd even out the color #s so everything has an equal opportunity to be drafted. Other than the obvious storm-enablers (which I won't touch on to avoid all hell breaking loose) there are only some other minor replacements I'd suggest.
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You like Gemstone Mine over Grand Colliseum? And no karoos? Do you have an abiding hatred of ETBT lands?
Spectral Searchlight is terrible now that you can't manaburn your opponents with it.
Gifts Ungiven is probably worthy if you have a 'combo' cube?
Mind Twist is a 1CC black spell but red X spells get their own category. Also, no profane command? You do not appear to have any CCX spells in the cube.
No Condescend? No Ink-Eyes? (No Seething Song??)
@magicmerl: Just a generic land reply. The cube is generally fast, as a result ETBT and karoo lands are slow and a liability.
Searchlight is good in my cube as the common way we cube is 2v2. The ability to help out a partner is great, so it essentially just replaced darksteel ingot.
Gift's Ungiven always seems to limited in what it can do. It always seems to be only good in a certain deck, and then that deck needs the appropriate cards to take advantage of it. That is essentially why entomb and intuition ended up being cut years ago. They were just too narrow.
I will apologize for the mind twist categorizing. Again, typed the list to get it up. I will fix it when i get the chance.
Condescend I'm thinking about. Ink Eyes will probably get back in. Just say no to seething song.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Condescend is a pretty solid counterspell and probably has room in a cube of any size. Ink-eyes has always been horrible for us and i dont think black needs it. Seething song is not needed either.
(list not current)
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(list is always current)
I don't agree. Worst case scenario you choose 4 different lands at instant speed, and get two of them, and thins your library of four lands. This situation will only come up late game, where thinning for 4 is relevant.
Most often I play it with either a Genesis, Deep Analysis or other similar cards. This will generally be really broken. But "just" picking the best 4 answers to a certain situation is often the best way to use it, even though you'll "only" get the two worst. Getting 2/4 removal will most often be good enough even if it's the two worst of them.
And did I mention it's Instant card draw?
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I'm not going to really try to convince anybody not to run Gifts. Obviously people have good experiences with it as it sees play in a large percentage of cubes. I feel like you are looking at it "glass half-full", while I look at thinning four lands, or getting the 3rd and 4th best card in a pile (while losing the 1st and 2nd best) in a "glass-half empty" light. Most instant card draw doesn't prevent you from getting the best cards in your deck into your hand, while with Gifts as long as your opponent is paying attention that shouldn't happen.
In short I can understand why people play Gifts in their cubes, but I feel it's power (similar to Yawgmoth's Will) is extremely overstated.
(list not current)
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(list is always current)
I agree. We've found it to be solid and occasionally amazing, but we've also found it to be less powerful than our other 4CC blue draw spells, like Fact and Deep Analysis. With less redundancy and recurrsion, Gifts has too often played like a card that is neither a good source of card advantage, nor a true tutor. It has shined in situations where the board is at an even state, but those times are often difficult to come by by the time you have four mana free in a blue deck.
We still have it in and are giving the card its fair shake.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Edit: I want to have Talismen in my cube, but came to the regretful conclusion that with the size of cube I have (480 cards and looking to get smaller) that Talismen plus signets were just too much mana acceleration/fixing for control.
@eidolon: Momentary blink is a white card, so it's in white. I'm assuming when you cube with your group games go slow. Bounce lands, 4 mana replacements for 1-2cc spells, etc. That won't cut it. I would hate on my second turn to play a bounce land, probably do nothing and walk into my opponents turn three goblin settler as an example. There is no reason to take karoos over duals when they are available. The same is true of the vivid lands. ETBT lands are brutal when there are superior alternatives. Hopefully that will cover some things that i will probably gloss over or just not address.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Just because the original dual lands are better than other lands doesn't mean the others shouldn't be run too. The Karoo lands are great in every decktype. Reaching 5 mana with 4 lands is always a good thing.
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I also love Mother of Runes, Knight of Meadowgrain, karoos, both green walls (which are cards for green ramp, BTW), and the signets.
Gifts, while not as good as in constructed, is still pretty busted in Cube. Sometimes, it's the only blue card I run. It is especially nice to pair with green (Witness, Regrowth, All Sun's Dawn, Genesis, etc.).
Cheers,
rant
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Talismans are useful right away, and require nothing else to make them good. Simple example, turn 2 talisman -> one drop VS turn 2 signet go. Sure the turn 4 can be the same, but now aggro deck, control deck, etc can all play these and still keep the pressure that archetype presents.
No karoo lands are not good in every deck type. If you are playing aggro with karoo lands...
enough said.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Bouncelands can play fine into aggro strategies. They let you keep a two-land hand that you'd otherwise be forced to mulligan. Pain lands are situationally much better for aggro decks, so the combinations W/R, G/R and B/R do prefer the painlands quite often. The painlands are bad in control though and I would only take painlands if I was choosing different land combinations for each colour pair.
Kataki is an OK card, but white can do better. In many cases, aggro likes fast mana and equipment and Kataki will take up valuable resources... whilst control gets to four mana and sweeps. Debt of Loyalty is also very sub-par IMO - if you can kill the creature easily in combat, then it isn't worth stealing. If you kill-spell it and steal it, well that's card disadvantage and expensively costed to boot. Granted, it's not an effect that's often seen in White, but unfortunately has never been since in any kind of playable form.
Signets are also very much better than Talismans. Talismans are decent, but don't fix two colours at once, which is often relevant.
Aftershock is an all-star for red and, for many (myself incuded), a Cube staple. Find me another card in red that's that versatile for four mana... and all for the paltry cost of 3 life. Kill their threat if behind, kill their land if in front. Kill their Jitte if they're aggro, kill their Forcefield is they're control.
[CARD]
Oona's Prowler[/CARD] is a strong aggro creature that is worth including if you play any reanimator cards.
And lastly, Bitterblossom is a top 10 pick for black. It goes into virtually any deck I can thought-experiment together.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
...erm..... yes?????
Tap a land, have signet filter it into 2 colours.
VS
Tap a land for colour and signet for other.
Bitterblossom is not an aggro card, it's too slow. One deck down. In control it will fog the biggest creature to 1 point. Two down. Combo... skullclamp/bitterblossom. Two cards, 1 mana, 1 life ->phyrexian arena, 1 card, 1 life
...moving on.
What kind of aggro do you play?
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Put bluntly, it should be in any size Cube, and certainly should be included over any of the cards that eidolon kindly listed and that others have reaffirmed.
Talismans can make you one mana of a given colour at the cost of a life. Signets can make you two for no life. Those two mana might not be produced by any land you control. This is what I mean by fixing two colours. Arguing that a Talisman can fix two simultaneously because you tap another land is like saying your Mox Jet can fix 5 colours because you played a City of Brass.
And yes, bouncelands can fit into aggro... in exactly the way I described! If I'm picking and choosing lands for Cube, I'll give the aggro pairs the painlands like I described. If you want a homogeneous land distribution (all Shocks, all Fetches, etc.) then Bouncelands are absolutely the way to go. You don't seem to have much by way of counter argument. Try them in aggro, play them at the opportune moment, and see for yourself. Otherwise, the quote in my signature should serve as a point of reference.
Don't take this badly, but don't come on asking for constructive criticism and get butt-hurt when people make a case for known, tried-and-tested, time-honoured Cube staples... and you tell them that they're garbage. We're basically here to help, and like your OP says, optimize your Cube. I suggest implementing every single one of eidolon's changes and going from there... there's a lot of good Cube lists you can work from of all different sizes. And don't delude yourself that most people's Cubes are slow... once properly constructed, good Cubes with good players are capable of blazingly fast aggro as well as control decks.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Some people would rather play Brain Freeze than Bitterblossom, argue that Signets are bad, Karros in the cube make the entire thing too slow, and imply that Mother of Runes sucks. Those people aren't going to be convinced of anything else. No matter if an entire cube community with years of cube experience, thousands and thousands of drafts and pro tour caliber players tells him otherwise. If they don't want help/advice, spend your time helping and debating with those that do.
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I can somewhat see not wanting to simply change your mind because others have used a card and ceding to groupthink, but that's not even what's happening. All that you've done is be extremely defensive, act rude (see your last few posts in this thread, especially) and add not all that much to the conversation.
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