BTW... I re-did the cube list. the 2nd post of this thread has a much more organized version of my cube list. Done first by color, then by cost, then by creature/non-creature, and then in alphabetical order.
For some reason, I can't get the [card] OR [cards] tags to work... is it because I imported the list from Word? I can't figure out why the formatting won't work. I did the exact same thing I did in the OP, except it won't work now... The [card/cards tags won't work but the [spoiler] ones still do... why is that?
I spent a good amount of time on the new list, and even though the card tags won't work, it's much easier to look through now.
Massive update! Cut 70 (SEVENTY) cards from the cube today. I enjoy cubing with a smaller cube, and 430 is a good number (about 20% over the minimum 8-man draft number).
I really wanted to reduce the multicolor influence on the cube. I had too many gold cards in, and we were finding that the tri-color gold cards weren't being played. Taking all of the 3+ gold cards out, and balancing the remaining gold cards is something I've been wanting to do since the last cut. My OCD for having balanced cube numbers could no longer be ignored.
There are quite a few cards in the cut that I'm going to miss, so they may make their way back in sometime in the future. Namely: Stalking Stones, hull Breach, Wax // Wane, Phantom Nishoba, Jester's Cap, and Mishra's Helix.
hull Breach and Wax // Wane may take the places of the Artifact Mutation and Aura Mutation, but those cards have been so strong... I'll just have to playtest with the cube as is for a bit before I can decide for sure.
I like the changes overall. I was surprised to see Silent Specter go, but looking at your black creatures, it has very tough competition.
I can definitely get behind getting rid of the 3 color cards, I remember you saying that some of the "wedge" cards were really meh, like Guided Passage and taking those out definitely looks like to be good.
(edit - I can also definitely get behind Brushhopper for Mystic Enforcer, while the latter can be an undercosted dragon [How quickly do most decks get threshold for stuff like him and Werebear?] the former is, at its worst, a 3/4 for 3, which is really good.
Looking at your list, why do you have 4 allied color pair cards and 3 enemy?)
Well, it's mainly because of the land support. There is more support for allied colors, so the allied colors get more cards. I am stretched as far as enemy-color non-basics will allow me to go (by including the tempest Caldera Lake cycle). There is literally nothing left for me to use. More playable allied color nonbasics = more allied color gold cards. It was the only way to balance it.
The other reason is that the enemy multi-color cards are lacking in the older environment. Finding another cube-worthy BG card will stress me out, not to mention UG. I'd rather cut a moderate-power card from another color-pair then add a sub par card for the color pair that's short a card.
Threshhold takes a while. There Werebear has been good because the mana-ramp is useful, but w/o threshhold, the Mystic Enforcer is just a bad 2-Color Phantom Centaur. My roomate will be pissed when he comes back from the pro tour to find the Mystic Enforcer gone (he's kinda' a pet card for him)... but meh, I can cut it without losing too much sleep.
I like all of those cards, but I don't know what to take out in their place. Gold is pretty tight now...
Other than the gold cards, Natural Order, Jester's Cap and The Tabernacle may go back in in the future... don't know what to take out instead of 'em though.
Suggestions?
I'd be willing to play the Sliver Queen as an artifact choice if it helps to make room...
i like those changes, even though i do like Old Man of the Sea a lot. 3 mana 2/3, with a solid ability. Ophidian is nice too, though so it's a toss up... Old Man feels like more classic.. for some strange reason.
i like those changes, even though i do like Old Man of the Sea a lot. 3 mana 2/3, with a solid ability. Ophidian is nice too, though so it's a toss up... Old Man feels like more classic.. for some strange reason.
Ya, I know... I like the Old Man too. However, the "classic" cube doesn't have as many options as newer cubes do for Ophidian-like creatures. I just couldn't cut the Ophidian. Card draw on creatures is teh nutz.
Oh... and after looking at my green again, Natural Order is back out. I simply don't have enough targets for it, and now that the cube is smaller (and no reanimation got cut) there'll be plenty of other ways to cheat the green fatties into play. Spike Feeder lives to see another draft it seems.
EDIT:
Also, 10 more nonbasic lands were cut to keep the numbers from getting out of hand.
- All 5 Invasion Allied "CIPT" Lands
- All 5 Odyssey Filter Lands
Now there are 4 allied non-basic lands (and 4 Allied gold cards of each pair)
and there are 3 enemy non-basic lands (and 3 Enemy gold cards of each pair)
No, I like Hermit Druid... he's in my parole board of possible future cube cards. He may be added soon. Spike Feeder's been solid, you know... with the lack of other life-gain-on-a-stick dudes like Kitchen Finks.
I really want Helm of Possession to go back in. It's a great card in aggro to top off your curve with (sure, at the mid-game level I'll exchange this Jungle Lion for your... giant scary creature). However, when I cut the artifact section by so many cards, some good stuff had to go. This was the last one to get cut.
Aura Mutation was good because we were lucky in finding targets. It always seemed to find a 4+ CC target and make tons of tokens. However, when cutting cards from a color as strong as GW, I hat to let it go. Wax // Wane was too flexible to get the axe in the end. Enchantment removal for W and another Giant Growth type effect for G was too good to cut. Aura Mutation was good, but it was too narrow in comparison to Wax // Wane which kept it's slot when one of the two had to go.
............
On another note, how has Hermit Druid been for those that run him? Like, I know he's good on paper, but what sorts of archetypes does it play well in in a cube environment? Is it a high pick? Is it used for it's intended ability often enough? What's the best thing it's ever done for you? What is his average performance in the cube?
Skittering Skirge could replace Skinthinner. I don't rate that guy. Skirge would make black aggro a reasonably good archetype for your Cube, I think.
Of the rest of your cards there, maybe Phyrexian Scuta could be cut for Persecute? Your other four drops seem better and I found Scuta not really good enough, and my Cube is a lot larger than yours.
Also, I prefer Mystic Enforcer to Anurid Brushhopper. I really like the Enforcer, he has a lot of use even as a 3/3 Pro-black. With threshold he is nuts. The Brushhopper is cute and above the curve in terms of stats, but I always felt he was just on the cusp of playable On the other hand, Anurid is house-like against R/x aggro, so depends on what archetype is prevalent for you personally as to which one to include!
I think of Skittering Horror more for control but Skittering Skirge is good in aggro too, as long as you don't drop him too early. On paper he looks bad for aggro, but he plays into the suiblack strategy quite well in my opinion. He's three damage a turn till they kill him
This may come from inexperience from playing the creatures, but aren't the Skittering creatures more for control than aggro?
while they can be excellent choices for B/X control, they can also be amazing in B/X aggro. i played skittering skirge in sui-black (circa '02 extended) for quite some time and had huge success w/ him (even top 4'ed a GPT w/ that deck). a two mana 3/2 flyer comes down early and has to be dealt w/. the 'no more creatures' clause attached to the skirges isn't really a big deal. obviously having more creatures is a good thing in an aggro deck, but you've got a 3/2 flyer out that your opponent absolutely has to find an answer to or he loses. combine that with a good removal suite and some decent equipment and you've got a winning aggro deck on your hands.
i can see skittering skirge replacing skinthinner as well. eight mana for a dark banishing doesn't seem that good for me. his morph cost is way overpriced, imo. he's not horrible, but he could definitely be a lot better.
also, just out of curiosity, how good has rotlung reanimator been for you? how often does ability pay off in replacing more than just himself? i realize that even being able to replace himself can make him a decent addition, but i would think there's something better out there than him.
I really like Skinthinner, so I don't think he's going to get cut.
I had the Skittering Skirge in before, and cut him. Now I want him back in... he's a really solid creature. As is the Skittering horror... in aggro, mid-range or control.
I like Phyrexian Scuta too. I don't know if I want to take out a splashable, flexible 5/5 for 3B.
Persecute was really good, but I cut it during the massive cube-trimming that I did. It's one of the cards I'd really like to have back in the cube.
Rotlung Reanimator is good enough even if he's only replacing himself. He's great with Recurring Nightmare and Volrath's Stronghold, and there are 10 or so other clerics in the cube that he can trigger with. It doesn't happen very often, but the simple fact that he's two 2/2's for 2B makes him worthy, IMO. Don't undervalue threats that automatically replace themselves when finally dealt with. It can be a nightmare for control (or crontrol-ish mid-range decks) to deal with if light on removal.
Oh, and the Anurid Brushhopper was unimpressive. Mystic Enforcer is not. Pro-black is relevant, and often enough it's a 6/6 flying, pro-black for 2WG. My roomate convinced me to put it back in.
I really like Skinthinner, so I don't think he's going to get cut.
i really don't see another card that's worse than skittering skirge at all. everything you have right now around that casting cost is solid and splashable. being splashable is something that skittering skirge can't claim.
Rotlung Reanimator is good enough even if he's only replacing himself. He's great with Recurring Nightmare and Volrath's Stronghold, and there are 10 or so other clerics in the cube that he can trigger with. It doesn't happen very often, but the simple fact that he's two 2/2's for 2B makes him worthy, IMO. Don't undervalue threats that automatically replace themselves when finally dealt with. It can be a nightmare for control (or crontrol-ish mid-range decks) to deal with if light on removal.
yeah, we've contemplated including him in our cube on several occasions, but just never have. on first look he only seems ok, but i guess playing a few games with him will reveal his worth. definitely something for us to consider.
i really don't see another card that's worse than skittering skirge at all.
That's the problem I'm having...
Skittering Skirge is really good. I want it in the cube. I don't know what to cut. Persecute is really good. I want it in the cube. I don't know what to cut.
Skittering Skirge is really good. I want it in the cube. I don't know what to cut. Persecute is really good. I want it in the cube. I don't know what to cut.
Damn.
SOLUTION: make cube a bit bigger. (not really a solution)
Currently 62/265 cards.
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For some reason, I can't get the [card] OR [cards] tags to work... is it because I imported the list from Word? I can't figure out why the formatting won't work. I did the exact same thing I did in the OP, except it won't work now... The [card/cards tags won't work but the [spoiler] ones still do... why is that?
I spent a good amount of time on the new list, and even though the card tags won't work, it's much easier to look through now.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
IN:
Dismantling Blow
OUT:
I really wanted to reduce the multicolor influence on the cube. I had too many gold cards in, and we were finding that the tri-color gold cards weren't being played. Taking all of the 3+ gold cards out, and balancing the remaining gold cards is something I've been wanting to do since the last cut. My OCD for having balanced cube numbers could no longer be ignored.
There are quite a few cards in the cut that I'm going to miss, so they may make their way back in sometime in the future. Namely: Stalking Stones, hull Breach, Wax // Wane, Phantom Nishoba, Jester's Cap, and Mishra's Helix.
hull Breach and Wax // Wane may take the places of the Artifact Mutation and Aura Mutation, but those cards have been so strong... I'll just have to playtest with the cube as is for a bit before I can decide for sure.
And also, Anurid Brushhopper is in for a while replacing Mystic Enforcer. I want to try out the Brushhopper.
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I can definitely get behind getting rid of the 3 color cards, I remember you saying that some of the "wedge" cards were really meh, like Guided Passage and taking those out definitely looks like to be good.
(edit - I can also definitely get behind Brushhopper for Mystic Enforcer, while the latter can be an undercosted dragon [How quickly do most decks get threshold for stuff like him and Werebear?] the former is, at its worst, a 3/4 for 3, which is really good.
Looking at your list, why do you have 4 allied color pair cards and 3 enemy?)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
The other reason is that the enemy multi-color cards are lacking in the older environment. Finding another cube-worthy BG card will stress me out, not to mention UG. I'd rather cut a moderate-power card from another color-pair then add a sub par card for the color pair that's short a card.
Threshhold takes a while. There Werebear has been good because the mana-ramp is useful, but w/o threshhold, the Mystic Enforcer is just a bad 2-Color Phantom Centaur. My roomate will be pissed when he comes back from the pro tour to find the Mystic Enforcer gone (he's kinda' a pet card for him)... but meh, I can cut it without losing too much sleep.
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Other than the gold cards, Natural Order, Jester's Cap and The Tabernacle may go back in in the future... don't know what to take out instead of 'em though.
Suggestions?
I'd be willing to play the Sliver Queen as an artifact choice if it helps to make room...
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IN > OUT
Ophidian > Old Man of the Sea
Ashes to Ashes > Dauthi Marauder
Jester's Cap > helm of Possession
hull Breach > Artifact Mutation
Wax // Wane > Aura Mutation
Graveborn Muse > Black Knight
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Ya, I know... I like the Old Man too. However, the "classic" cube doesn't have as many options as newer cubes do for Ophidian-like creatures. I just couldn't cut the Ophidian. Card draw on creatures is teh nutz.
Oh... and after looking at my green again, Natural Order is back out. I simply don't have enough targets for it, and now that the cube is smaller (and no reanimation got cut) there'll be plenty of other ways to cheat the green fatties into play. Spike Feeder lives to see another draft it seems.
EDIT:
Also, 10 more nonbasic lands were cut to keep the numbers from getting out of hand.
- All 5 Invasion Allied "CIPT" Lands
- All 5 Odyssey Filter Lands
Now there are 4 allied non-basic lands (and 4 Allied gold cards of each pair)
and there are 3 enemy non-basic lands (and 3 Enemy gold cards of each pair)
...making an equal balance.
The cube is now 420 cards total.
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Possible replacement for Spike Feeder ?
just a thought, maybe not good enuff for ya~
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I'm also interested in how Helm of Possession performed.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Aura Mutation was good because we were lucky in finding targets. It always seemed to find a 4+ CC target and make tons of tokens. However, when cutting cards from a color as strong as GW, I hat to let it go. Wax // Wane was too flexible to get the axe in the end. Enchantment removal for W and another Giant Growth type effect for G was too good to cut. Aura Mutation was good, but it was too narrow in comparison to Wax // Wane which kept it's slot when one of the two had to go.
............
On another note, how has Hermit Druid been for those that run him? Like, I know he's good on paper, but what sorts of archetypes does it play well in in a cube environment? Is it a high pick? Is it used for it's intended ability often enough? What's the best thing it's ever done for you? What is his average performance in the cube?
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IN > OUT
Show and Tell > Cloud of Fearies
Mystic Enforcer > Anurid Brushhopper
Eureka > Spike Feeder
All 5 Odyssey Filter Lands are going back in.
The total cube size is 425 cards.
I'm also trying to find room for Skittering Skirge and Persecute in black. Any suggestions?
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Of the rest of your cards there, maybe Phyrexian Scuta could be cut for Persecute? Your other four drops seem better and I found Scuta not really good enough, and my Cube is a lot larger than yours.
Also, I prefer Mystic Enforcer to Anurid Brushhopper. I really like the Enforcer, he has a lot of use even as a 3/3 Pro-black. With threshold he is nuts. The Brushhopper is cute and above the curve in terms of stats, but I always felt he was just on the cusp of playable On the other hand, Anurid is house-like against R/x aggro, so depends on what archetype is prevalent for you personally as to which one to include!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
while they can be excellent choices for B/X control, they can also be amazing in B/X aggro. i played skittering skirge in sui-black (circa '02 extended) for quite some time and had huge success w/ him (even top 4'ed a GPT w/ that deck). a two mana 3/2 flyer comes down early and has to be dealt w/. the 'no more creatures' clause attached to the skirges isn't really a big deal. obviously having more creatures is a good thing in an aggro deck, but you've got a 3/2 flyer out that your opponent absolutely has to find an answer to or he loses. combine that with a good removal suite and some decent equipment and you've got a winning aggro deck on your hands.
i can see skittering skirge replacing skinthinner as well. eight mana for a dark banishing doesn't seem that good for me. his morph cost is way overpriced, imo. he's not horrible, but he could definitely be a lot better.
also, just out of curiosity, how good has rotlung reanimator been for you? how often does ability pay off in replacing more than just himself? i realize that even being able to replace himself can make him a decent addition, but i would think there's something better out there than him.
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I had the Skittering Skirge in before, and cut him. Now I want him back in... he's a really solid creature. As is the Skittering horror... in aggro, mid-range or control.
I like Phyrexian Scuta too. I don't know if I want to take out a splashable, flexible 5/5 for 3B.
Persecute was really good, but I cut it during the massive cube-trimming that I did. It's one of the cards I'd really like to have back in the cube.
Rotlung Reanimator is good enough even if he's only replacing himself. He's great with Recurring Nightmare and Volrath's Stronghold, and there are 10 or so other clerics in the cube that he can trigger with. It doesn't happen very often, but the simple fact that he's two 2/2's for 2B makes him worthy, IMO. Don't undervalue threats that automatically replace themselves when finally dealt with. It can be a nightmare for control (or crontrol-ish mid-range decks) to deal with if light on removal.
Oh, and the Anurid Brushhopper was unimpressive. Mystic Enforcer is not. Pro-black is relevant, and often enough it's a 6/6 flying, pro-black for 2WG. My roomate convinced me to put it back in.
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i really don't see another card that's worse than skittering skirge at all. everything you have right now around that casting cost is solid and splashable. being splashable is something that skittering skirge can't claim.
yeah, we've contemplated including him in our cube on several occasions, but just never have. on first look he only seems ok, but i guess playing a few games with him will reveal his worth. definitely something for us to consider.
calibretto
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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That's the problem I'm having...
Skittering Skirge is really good. I want it in the cube. I don't know what to cut.
Persecute is really good. I want it in the cube. I don't know what to cut.
Damn.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Opm's Cube on MTGS
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SOLUTION: make cube a bit bigger. (not really a solution)
Opm's Cube on MTGS
Wife's Etsy Store (Hair Accessories for Girls)