Far from it, I actually like Skeletal Vampire a lot, I just thought I would try Ob Nixilis, the Fallen in its place. It's a bit too bad that he hasn't been drafted just yet, so I can't comment on his inclusion, but I mainly got the idea from Wtwlf's thread. Comparing his list against mine, he includes Ob and doesn't have the Vampire. I've come to respect his opinion on the cube, so I thought I'd give it a chance.
I think putting in Ob Nixilis was the right call, I just don't think Skeletal Vampire is the right cut. Silent Specter could go and with a cube your size I wouldn't include Wei Assassins in addition to Predatory Nightstalkers.
Kor Skyfisher -> Stormfront Pegasus
Trying out this change. So far, I've been pleased with the upgrade. Being 3 toughness is very significant.
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Conqueror's Pledge
Putting Pianna back to give her another try. With more white aggro based removal, she doesn't "just die" when she attacks. There are just better things to do with 5 mana in white to put in Conqueror's Pledge.
Emeria Angel -> Griffin Guide
Many of the auras were situationally great in aggro decks, forcing control to use their wraths early or die to a single creature. I think it's much better to just give aggro more creatures.
Honor of the Pure -> Arrest
I think I have plenty of white removal already, Honor of the Pure is great for white based decks.
Innocent Blood -> Barter in Blood
Barter in Blood is great but, I think Innocent Blood might be better. The cheaper mana cost make it infinitely more playable.
Mind Twist -> Mind Shatter
Strict upgrade. I found that many times I would draft Mind Shatter, but ultimately not play it because "it could be Mind Twist" for 1 cheaper black mana. This card makes grown men cry.
Fire Imp -> Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Ghitu Slinger -> Akroma, Angel of Fury
Making red a bit more aggressive. Jaya is a perfectly fine card, but is a bit slow. I want to try putting back Fire Imp in here place. The easier mana cost is also a boon as many of my red 3CC cards were costing 1RR.
Akroma, Angel of Fury only lasted this long because it was a pet card of a player - I say, "too bad". Every time I saw this card in the draft it was an eye-sore. If I don't tell him, maybe he won't notice.
Wild Dogs -> Great Sable Stag
Just trying to push aggro for green a bit more. I don't know if this is the correct change, but the first game I played with Wild Dogs, he never changed sides and dealt 4 damage. Seems like a worthy addition.
Master of the Wild Hunt -> Scute Mob Scute Mob is decent but not great. You can't play him early as he's not a threat. When you play him late, you do get a 5/5 beater for 1 mana - problem is he can just get chumped all day. I'm hoping Master of the Wild Hunt is better in the role of "if they don't have removal - you will die to it" creature. I know other cubers say he's not that great, but I'd like to give it a try.
Worldly Tutor -> All Suns' Dawn
Theoretically, ASD is great as you can return several cards back to your hand. It's never been played here and it's been in several drafts. Maybe it's my playgroup, but it just hasn't panned out. Worldly Tutor has already earned it's keep. Turn 1 Forest into Worldly Tutor for a turn 2 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary was golden.
Pithing Needle -> Darksteel Ingot
The boards were talking about removing Darksteel Ingot and I have to agree. It's decent at what it does, but is not all the necessary with the other artifacts. Plus Coalition Relic is much better at the same cost. Pithing Needle should help drafters with Planeswalkers and troublesome activated abilities if they so choose.
Great Sable Stag is awesome, it's the equivalent to Paladin en-Vec. This is what hate drafting is, if you see a lot of people picking blue or black you'll want to get the stag. Incredibly good against a BU deck or very good against a B or U deck.
I think Worldly Tutor can move out because it's not that great of a card, and it is card disadvantage. Getting a turn 2 Rofellos is probably the best you're going to do. Sure Worldly is much cheaper than Primal Command, but it's not a Swiss army knife that does everything and doesn't create a card disadvantage.
Worldly Tutor has been great. It fetches great creatures that you may need to draw early... like Viridian Shaman and the like. I don't want to have to wait uintil turn 5 for that effect by using Primal Command. Vampiric Tutor and Enlightened Tutor are card disadvantage too... but that doesn't make them bad.
I cut Barter in Blood and have been living happily without it for some time. Black has better sweepers and better removal. I play too much black mid-range, and less black control... the times where Barter wasn't killing my own creatures was few and far between.
I don't like the Pledge either, Cloudgoat Ranger is insanely better, and the mana cost is prohibitive.
The only change I don't like is removing the Sable Stag... he's the man. Also, I'd play both green walls.
I'd keep Conquerors Pledge. It plays very similar to Cloudgoat Ranger and is very good with your new additions Pianna and Honor of the Pure. That card has been excellent for me, even outside of Soldier interactions. Wing Shards, Kongming and Scepter of Dominance are possible cuts i see in white.
Barter in Blood is one of Blacks best removal spells period. It comes right after Damnation and should never ever be cut. If you need to cut something, how about Profane Command (soooo expensive) or Slaughter Pact (Snuff Out's emberassing retarded brother)?
Imo Worldly tutor is pretty crappy. I'd never run it and especially not over the bomby All Sun's Dawn. ASD is heavy cardadvantage while Worldly Tutor is even card disadvantage. It's not even close imo. If you really want to play the tutor, how about cutting Moldervine Cloak?
The rest of the changes are okay. Personally, i'd try to get Jaya back in, but she's not as important as the other three cards i mentioned. For Jaya, i'd cut Hammer of Bogardan, Magus of the Scroll or Skizzik.
So sorry, DerBK, I didn't update my original list after I posted the update. I no longer have Wing Shards, but the others remain. I will think about removing either Kongming or Scepter of Dominance - both of which I really like.
It's your cube, do what you wish, but I think you might be swaying it towards aggro and less control. I do think it's okay to do so, but I'll have you know that most of the cubes out there are more control based because most of the time, control has the best cards out there.
What? This is silly, that's like complaining about Wrath or Damnation kiling your own creatures. Barter in Blood is a 4cc black sweeper and should be treated as such.
What are the better sweepers? Black has Damnation and Mutilate at 4cc. I'll give you Damnation, but Mutilate is much worse and i can't really think of something else right now that would come closer to the description of "Black Wrath" than Damnation and Barter.
I have to agree with BK here. Most of the time Barter in Blood is a second Damnation. If there's a problem with it killing your own dudes, then you're playing it in the wrong deck.
I have to agree with BK here. Most of the time Barter in Blood is a second Damnation. If there's a problem with it killing your own dudes, then you're playing it in the wrong deck.
Agree. Also, I'll gladly lose my [Oona's Prowler, Nezumi Shortfang, Hypnotic Specter, etc.] to destroy Paladin en-Vec and Phantom Centaur or Great Sable Stag and Soltari Monk.
That's fine and all, but I found I didn't need a 2nd (worse) damnation in a color that's drafted as a mid-range color. If black was heavier on control in this cube (or if the cube was bigger) it would go back in right away. It's not great in black mid-range, and it was competing against better cards in the few dedicated black control slots I run.
It's not that Barter is bad (because it's not)... it's just that the effect wasn't valuable in most black decks we draft here. The quality of the creatures I was losing was better than the quality of the creatures I was killing with it... making it not so good in black mid-range. It's a control card, and in black control, it's competing against cards that I consider to be better sweeper/wrath effects, like Damnation and Decree of Pain and Thrashing Wumpus and Bane of the Living. I found it to be worse than those cards, and it got cut.
In black mid-range it's better to keep my Vampire Nighthawk and Graveborn Muse alive, and simply use Infest-effects and targeted removal to kill my opponents creatures. By the time I play Barter, I have better creatures out than my opponent. That's a bad trade. In control (rarely drafted here) it's a different story. I'll gladly play barter in Black Control, but not over the cards I've already set aside for that archetype. Thus, it's not needed here.
Barter in Blood -> Vampire Hexmage
The hexmage was more or less an experiment. It never got played but seems like the weakest of the 2 mana black creatures.
Barter in Blood -> Vampire Hexmage
The hexmage was more or less an experiment. It never got played but seems like the weakest of the 2 mana black creatures.
I don't use Mold Shambler as tempo disruption (it costs 6... not too disruptive at that point ;)). I look at the shambler, and compare it to Indrik Stomphowler. 1 green more and -1/-1, but, can kill planeswalkers and lands in addition to artifacts and enchantments, and can be played as a 3/3 for 3G in a bind. Not stronger, but a bit more versatile. Did I mention that it kills planeswalkers?
I'll think you'll like Creeping Mold though. I know I do. I've had it in both cubes since the beginning, and it survived the merger, and is still playing strong now.
( in -> out ) Great Sable Stag -> Tooth and Nail Tooth and Nail is too slow. In all the time it's been in my cube [ and that's since the beginning ] I've only seen it cast once. This is a great opportunity to put back the Stag.
I like other cubists here have adopted putting the color-aligned lands into their respective colors - they are drafted that way and they are played that way. In addition, it's great because you can play only the best lands from that color!
Frantic Search -> Repulse
Frantic Search is a free spell that helps with card filtering and reanimator. Perfect for blue.
Faerie Conclave -> Sleep
Sleep is a very situational card. It was supposed to help the G/U tempo deck out, but it really didn’t do much. The card ended up in many sideboards, so with the changes to the lands, I can now run Faerie Conclave once again.
Mind Shatter -> Mind Twist
This keeps the cube a bit more balanced – Twist is much too powerful that one card difference is crucial.
Vampire Hexmage -> Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
With the change to lands ( below ), I can move Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out of black. Trying the Hexmage out again. It's great that it helps out black aggro too.
Keldon Champion -> Wheel of Fortune
Wheel of Fortune seemed a bit narrow. Whenever it was in my hand, I was afraid to cast it because it helps the opponent refill as well. Maybe i'm playing it wrong, but it was never good for me or my friends. Keldon Champion has been fine so far as a replacement - very efficient.
Thornling -> Oracle of Mul Daya
I think that green needed another 'beater'. Oracle of Mul Daya was great, but a card had to be cut in order to fill the slot for Thornling. Thornling has been superb. So far, each of his abilities were useful and it's nice to have a beater you can count on. One of green's best top end creatures in my opinion.
Viridian Shaman -> Rude Awakening
Rude Awakening was a strange card, it doesn’t work at all when you ramp with critters [ Llanowar Elves, etc ] – which is really what green wants to do. Sure you can use the spells to ramp too – Kodamas Reach, but those are more expensive. It’s a high-risk, high-reward card when you play it because if they have instant-speed sweepers, you can just lose as well. The shaman is very versatile because it’s an elf – also destroys artifacts early game. The other green cards generally take about 5 mana for this effect to be on a critter, so I’m trying to get some of the cheaper options on the table. Viridian Shaman will always have a target because nearly every deck runs some artifacts. I'm not trying to dredge up the old debate of whether Rude Awakening deserves to be in the cube or not, but over here, it wasn't getting much play and I thought that the shaman might perform better.
-Additions-
Pain lands to the lands section to make up for the loss of the color-aligned lands. Yes, this means that the cube grows *grumble*
Keldon Champion -> Wheel of Fortune
Wheel of Fortune seemed a bit narrow. Whenever it was in my hand, I was afraid to cast it because it helps the opponent refill as well. Maybe i'm playing it wrong, but it was never good for me or my friends. Keldon Champion has been fine so far as a replacement - very efficient.
When you play wheel you should generally don't care what your opponent draws. He should be on less than 10 life, and the Wheel will help you get the last reach to finish him off.
Good changes, although I have similar complaints to wtwlf... Wheel of Fortune is the card for R/x Aggro/Burn... i.e. not cuttable IMO.
The Mind Shatter replacement for Twist seems reasonable, I was running the same slot for a while before adding Twist back. If you aren't running power though, I have noticed that - paradoxically - Twist becomes less obnoxious as you don't risk a Lotus fuelled Twist for GG in the first couple of turns.
I would keep Memory Lapse also, but your blue section is tight and I can see you're tight for space.
Interesting to see another Rude Awakening cut - has there ever been a more debated card for the Cube? Some love it, some not so much.
Seal of Fire or Sneak Attack (I've never really been a fan of the latter, it requires too specialized a set of circumstances in deck construction and what's in the draft pool) could easily go for Wheel. I agree that Wheel is essential for red, it's one of the best red cards for aggro.
How has Chandra Ablaze been for people? Here, it's been so-so. It hasn't made too many decks, and I've only seen it in play once. Remember, I usually get around 6 players so mono-colored decks usually don't get built [ I chalk it up to not having a full table of 8 ]. Would that be a safe cut?
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I think putting in Ob Nixilis was the right call, I just don't think Skeletal Vampire is the right cut. Silent Specter could go and with a cube your size I wouldn't include Wei Assassins in addition to Predatory Nightstalkers.
I think I will settle on:
( in -> out )
Skeletal Vampire -> Predatory Nightstalker ( Wei Assassins )
Arrest -> Wing Shards
( in -> out )
Kor Skyfisher -> Stormfront Pegasus
Trying out this change. So far, I've been pleased with the upgrade. Being 3 toughness is very significant.
Pianna, Nomad Captain -> Conqueror's Pledge
Putting Pianna back to give her another try. With more white aggro based removal, she doesn't "just die" when she attacks. There are just better things to do with 5 mana in white to put in Conqueror's Pledge.
Emeria Angel -> Griffin Guide
Many of the auras were situationally great in aggro decks, forcing control to use their wraths early or die to a single creature. I think it's much better to just give aggro more creatures.
Honor of the Pure -> Arrest
I think I have plenty of white removal already, Honor of the Pure is great for white based decks.
Memory Lapse -> Rite of Replication
Rite of Replication is too cute, plus I feel that blue might need one more counter. It was a toss up between this and Hinder - Memory Lapse's lower CC won out.
Innocent Blood -> Barter in Blood
Barter in Blood is great but, I think Innocent Blood might be better. The cheaper mana cost make it infinitely more playable.
Living Death -> Skeletal Vampire
Since I'm removing Barter in Blood as a black sweeper, I put back Living Death. Skeletal Vampire, I still regard as really good, but it's much too mana intensive for a 3/3 flyer ( with 2 tokens ) and I have 5 black finishers - this is too much.
Mind Twist -> Mind Shatter
Strict upgrade. I found that many times I would draft Mind Shatter, but ultimately not play it because "it could be Mind Twist" for 1 cheaper black mana. This card makes grown men cry.
Fire Imp -> Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Ghitu Slinger -> Akroma, Angel of Fury
Making red a bit more aggressive. Jaya is a perfectly fine card, but is a bit slow. I want to try putting back Fire Imp in here place. The easier mana cost is also a boon as many of my red 3CC cards were costing 1RR.
Akroma, Angel of Fury only lasted this long because it was a pet card of a player - I say, "too bad". Every time I saw this card in the draft it was an eye-sore. If I don't tell him, maybe he won't notice.
Wall of Blossoms -> Wall of Roots
I already have plenty of mana-producing critters. Wall of Blossoms draws cards for green. Green needs this.
Wild Dogs -> Great Sable Stag
Just trying to push aggro for green a bit more. I don't know if this is the correct change, but the first game I played with Wild Dogs, he never changed sides and dealt 4 damage. Seems like a worthy addition.
Lotus Cobra -> Moldervine Cloak
No more auras - plus pushing green aggro and somewhat makes up for the loss of Wall of Roots
Overrun -> Elephant Guide
No more auras - Overrun is a perfect green card to push drafters into the color.
Master of the Wild Hunt -> Scute Mob
Scute Mob is decent but not great. You can't play him early as he's not a threat. When you play him late, you do get a 5/5 beater for 1 mana - problem is he can just get chumped all day. I'm hoping Master of the Wild Hunt is better in the role of "if they don't have removal - you will die to it" creature. I know other cubers say he's not that great, but I'd like to give it a try.
Worldly Tutor -> All Suns' Dawn
Theoretically, ASD is great as you can return several cards back to your hand. It's never been played here and it's been in several drafts. Maybe it's my playgroup, but it just hasn't panned out. Worldly Tutor has already earned it's keep. Turn 1 Forest into Worldly Tutor for a turn 2 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary was golden.
Pithing Needle -> Darksteel Ingot
The boards were talking about removing Darksteel Ingot and I have to agree. It's decent at what it does, but is not all the necessary with the other artifacts. Plus Coalition Relic is much better at the same cost. Pithing Needle should help drafters with Planeswalkers and troublesome activated abilities if they so choose.
Undiscovered Paradise -> Terramorphic Expanse
For landfall shenanigans. It has been pretty great so far.
I think Worldly Tutor can move out because it's not that great of a card, and it is card disadvantage. Getting a turn 2 Rofellos is probably the best you're going to do. Sure Worldly is much cheaper than Primal Command, but it's not a Swiss army knife that does everything and doesn't create a card disadvantage.
Just my opinion.
I cut Barter in Blood and have been living happily without it for some time. Black has better sweepers and better removal. I play too much black mid-range, and less black control... the times where Barter wasn't killing my own creatures was few and far between.
I don't like the Pledge either, Cloudgoat Ranger is insanely better, and the mana cost is prohibitive.
The only change I don't like is removing the Sable Stag... he's the man. Also, I'd play both green walls.
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So sorry, DerBK, I didn't update my original list after I posted the update. I no longer have Wing Shards, but the others remain. I will think about removing either Kongming or Scepter of Dominance - both of which I really like.
..and Moldervine Cloak was removed with this update.
Sorry for the confusion, other suggestions? [ it's updated now ]
I'll try and fit both Great Sable Stag and Wall of Roots.. there HAS to be space, right?
It's your cube, do what you wish, but I think you might be swaying it towards aggro and less control. I do think it's okay to do so, but I'll have you know that most of the cubes out there are more control based because most of the time, control has the best cards out there.
I have to agree with BK here. Most of the time Barter in Blood is a second Damnation. If there's a problem with it killing your own dudes, then you're playing it in the wrong deck.
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Agree. Also, I'll gladly lose my [Oona's Prowler, Nezumi Shortfang, Hypnotic Specter, etc.] to destroy Paladin en-Vec and Phantom Centaur or Great Sable Stag and Soltari Monk.
Cheers,
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It's not that Barter is bad (because it's not)... it's just that the effect wasn't valuable in most black decks we draft here. The quality of the creatures I was losing was better than the quality of the creatures I was killing with it... making it not so good in black mid-range. It's a control card, and in black control, it's competing against cards that I consider to be better sweeper/wrath effects, like Damnation and Decree of Pain and Thrashing Wumpus and Bane of the Living. I found it to be worse than those cards, and it got cut.
In black mid-range it's better to keep my Vampire Nighthawk and Graveborn Muse alive, and simply use Infest-effects and targeted removal to kill my opponents creatures. By the time I play Barter, I have better creatures out than my opponent. That's a bad trade. In control (rarely drafted here) it's a different story. I'll gladly play barter in Black Control, but not over the cards I've already set aside for that archetype. Thus, it's not needed here.
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( in -> out )
Barter in Blood -> Vampire Hexmage
The hexmage was more or less an experiment. It never got played but seems like the weakest of the 2 mana black creatures.
Creeping Mold -> Primal Command
Reading Wtwlf's changes to add tempo-disruption to his cube got me thinking about mine. I don't know if I'd add Mold Shambler, but Creeping Mold should be solid.
Creeping Mold is solid. And so is Barter in Blood. Excellent upgrade.
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I'll think you'll like Creeping Mold though. I know I do. I've had it in both cubes since the beginning, and it survived the merger, and is still playing strong now.
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( in -> out )
Great Sable Stag -> Tooth and Nail
Tooth and Nail is too slow. In all the time it's been in my cube [ and that's since the beginning ] I've only seen it cast once. This is a great opportunity to put back the Stag.
( in -> out )
Silver Knight -> Honor of the Pure
I think I'd rather have the knight than Honor. More threats might just be better.
Vedalken Shackles -> Memory Lapse
Moving Shackles into the blue section a card needs to come out.
Frantic Search -> Repulse
Frantic Search is a free spell that helps with card filtering and reanimator. Perfect for blue.
Faerie Conclave -> Sleep
Sleep is a very situational card. It was supposed to help the G/U tempo deck out, but it really didn’t do much. The card ended up in many sideboards, so with the changes to the lands, I can now run Faerie Conclave once again.
Mind Shatter -> Mind Twist
This keeps the cube a bit more balanced – Twist is much too powerful that one card difference is crucial.
Vampire Hexmage -> Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
With the change to lands ( below ), I can move Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out of black. Trying the Hexmage out again. It's great that it helps out black aggro too.
Keldon Champion -> Wheel of Fortune
Wheel of Fortune seemed a bit narrow. Whenever it was in my hand, I was afraid to cast it because it helps the opponent refill as well. Maybe i'm playing it wrong, but it was never good for me or my friends. Keldon Champion has been fine so far as a replacement - very efficient.
Thornling -> Oracle of Mul Daya
I think that green needed another 'beater'. Oracle of Mul Daya was great, but a card had to be cut in order to fill the slot for Thornling. Thornling has been superb. So far, each of his abilities were useful and it's nice to have a beater you can count on. One of green's best top end creatures in my opinion.
Viridian Shaman -> Rude Awakening
Rude Awakening was a strange card, it doesn’t work at all when you ramp with critters [ Llanowar Elves, etc ] – which is really what green wants to do. Sure you can use the spells to ramp too – Kodamas Reach, but those are more expensive. It’s a high-risk, high-reward card when you play it because if they have instant-speed sweepers, you can just lose as well. The shaman is very versatile because it’s an elf – also destroys artifacts early game. The other green cards generally take about 5 mana for this effect to be on a critter, so I’m trying to get some of the cheaper options on the table. Viridian Shaman will always have a target because nearly every deck runs some artifacts. I'm not trying to dredge up the old debate of whether Rude Awakening deserves to be in the cube or not, but over here, it wasn't getting much play and I thought that the shaman might perform better.
-Additions-
Pain lands to the lands section to make up for the loss of the color-aligned lands. Yes, this means that the cube grows *grumble*
Adarkar Wastes
Caves of Koilos
Battlefield Forge
Brushland
Underground River
Shivan Reef
Yavimaya Coast
Sulfurous Springs
Llanowar Wastes
Karplusan Forest
When you play wheel you should generally don't care what your opponent draws. He should be on less than 10 life, and the Wheel will help you get the last reach to finish him off.
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The Mind Shatter replacement for Twist seems reasonable, I was running the same slot for a while before adding Twist back. If you aren't running power though, I have noticed that - paradoxically - Twist becomes less obnoxious as you don't risk a Lotus fuelled Twist for GG in the first couple of turns.
I would keep Memory Lapse also, but your blue section is tight and I can see you're tight for space.
Interesting to see another Rude Awakening cut - has there ever been a more debated card for the Cube? Some love it, some not so much.
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The cards I would consider cutting are Sneak Attack, Chandra Ablaze, and Urza's Rage. Maybe Seal of fire.
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How has Chandra Ablaze been for people? Here, it's been so-so. It hasn't made too many decks, and I've only seen it in play once. Remember, I usually get around 6 players so mono-colored decks usually don't get built [ I chalk it up to not having a full table of 8 ]. Would that be a safe cut?