All who have had success with the card should of course keep it in, if it works for you I will not try to convince you not to run it. However, as the OP seems skeptical towards the cards performance I feel obliged to point out he is not alone with this feeling. There are so many board states where Spitting Image will not help you at all. You need 6 mana and a targetable creature somewhere that you are willing to pay 6 mana to get a token copy of. Now this does not help on an empty board, making it both a poor control finisher and a suboptimal card against control. Also if you are beaten down by some weenies paying 6 mana to trade with one of them probably will not be helpful either. In a stalled midrange mirror, all right, you may have both the targets and the time to cast it more than once. But in general I think it is just not good enough.
Agreed. In the mid-range mirror match, it's a great card. Cubes that don't have tons of aggro support will probably like it a lot more than my cube did. When half of the decks at the table are strong aggro decks, this card is just bad. Really. Aggro can't use it against control, and control can't use it against aggro.
Wow, that U/G debate has gotten lively. I'm going to see how Spitting Image fares in the new aggro empowered environment, and if it's bad I won't hesitate to put Voidslime back in. Thank you so much, everyone. I love hearing the different sides.
Demonfire ----> Molten Rain (X spells are getting splashed too often...I don't want every deck running red, and Demon is the worst of them I think) Goblin Welder ----> Goblin Patrol (Welder never realized his potential) Beacon of Destruction ----> Aftershock (I've heard good things about this card.) Urza's Rage ----> Ghitu Slinger (It was never kicked, and 2 seems an awful lot to pay for uncounterability on a Lightning Bolt)
I cube with six of the cards you cut, and wouldn't plan on removing any of them anytime soon. Especially not Rout... I love that card. And I've found Psionic Blast to be great.
Sure that you want to remove both 5 mana Wrath effects?
Would you consider Catastrophe to be still too "unfun" for your list?
Unlike Armageddon, it gives both players a chance to develop their board position before when you use it to blow up the lands and 50% of the times you want to kill the creatures anyway.
Too bad that Clique didn't work out for you, this persisting fae has always been super sick for us. Have you ever thought of cutting Liliana?
Cutting the Wrath effects is my way of trying to nerf control...I know the answer to this is usually "Don't cut good cards, just add answers", but the thing is I'm really bothered by the 'Geddon thing. If aggro can't have its disruption to stop control, more wrath effects that help control stabilize seem unbalancing.
Catastrophe - I'll bet they will shoot it down, but I'll certainly try.
I actually hadn't considered cutting Liliana Vess, since all planeswalkers tend to be game changers. The only reason I'm not running Sarkan Vol is because I don't have one, and Tez is too narrow. I don't know how she compares to the Clique though. I may switch these in and out over time to try to get a better feel for them.
I cube with six of the cards you cut, and wouldn't plan on removing any of them anytime soon. Especially not Rout... I love that card. And I've found Psionic Blast to be great.
Which cards? If there's something that I could cut instead, I'd love to hear suggestions. EDIT: I looked over your list and saw Rout, Demonfire, Psionic Blast, Innocent Blood, and Goblin Welder, but can't find the 6th. Like I said, Demonfire is certainly not an issue of power, it's just that I don't want all 6 decks at a table having access to a Fireball effect. Innocent Blood is one of my favorite cards ever, as I mentioned earlier, and I hate to cut it, but Doom Blade seems really, really good, and I do want SOME limit on the number of removal spells in black. Goblin Welder just felt like a bad combo piece, and like I said I've never seen him do anything, and unlike Tinker he doesn't seem to make people want to build around him. I imagine because he's easy to remove before he becomes broken, but can't say that for sure. I just know he wasn't being picked or played.
Vedalkan Shackles[/CARD] looks incredible. Psionic Blast was actually a pretty easy cut, just because it was almost always in the sideboard of blue decks. Like I said, the only blue decks that were running it were the ones that had complimentary burn, and the other ones left it in the SB.
I think the blue players weren't running it because of fear of giving the opponent a free Shock, since aggro got a lot more popular after my last couple of updates. I also didn't see any aggro deck splashing blue for another Char like I expected they might when I included it, so it's not helping anyone. Do you mind if I ask how it's been good for you?
My list is getting really tight...I'd love to hear suggestions for cuts from anyone who has them.
Thanks so much for the input guys. I'll try to fit Rout back in before we draft again, and keep an eye on the general power of control decks to see if cutting it is the best move.
I would not cut Liliana. Although i consider her a weaker planeswalker there are times when her discard ability simply destroys your opponent when they cant effectively deal with her.
Also Shackles is completely unfair. Even with 2-3 islands it can crush an aggro deck all by itself. The fact that you need to be reasonably into blue balances out its obscene power level.
Psi Blast has been decent for us, enough so that it's in no position to be cut right now. It removes lots of big dudes and the two life isnt that B of a D.
Chrome Mox was rarely drafted earlier than 13th pick, probably because it's so bad if you draw it in the late game. I imagine it would be a lot better if I ran fast mana artifacts alongside it, but as it is, it's just not performing.
I'm going to update the OP with this recent batch of changes soon, I just haven't gotten around to it.
I think it must be time for me to expand my cube to 450 cards, as hard a time as I've had with cutting stuff recently. We often have 5 people around anyway, and it wouldn't hurt to have Sealed as an option. What do you guys think, is there an "optimal" size for the cube?
I don't know... Rout and Psionic Blast are really good. Demonfire is a solid card, and Innocent Blood, Slaughter Pat and Goblin Welder have all been great in their respective archetypes. I use Welder against my opponent's artifacts just as often as I use it for my own. Innocent Blood is one of control's best removal spells in my cube because I can use it for a single black mana and leave other resources available for ramp or countermagic and the like.
I've wanted to make this change since it was first suggested (Thanks again Nevermore )but I didn't own a Necromancy.
We've decided to make the jump to 450, so most of the awesome stuff that's been cut recently will probably be coming back in, and I'll be looking for some additions in the colors that haven't changed much. (Looking at you, U)
EDIT- I'm going to be working with the OP as I adjust my cube today, so the numbers might get a little wacky at times. As always, I'll post a list of changes when I'm done.
All right, some major changes over the past week. We've made the leap into a 450 card cube, expanding each color to 59 cards each, artifacts to 50 cards, and gold cards to 5/color combo. I haven't actually acquired the gold/artifact cards that I want yet, so those changes are not yet reflected in the OP, but everything else should be in order.
Another thing I want to mention is that aggro is now the dominant archetype, being run by 5 of the 6 people at our last draft. I'm going to try to tone it down just a bit by adding so quicker answers to it (Why we see the return of Perimeter Captain and Innocent Blood and the new 2 mana counterspell in Condescend.)
All right, let's get into it.
White - We made one minor change before beginning to add things.
Out ----> In Harm's Way ---> Perimeter Captain (Harm's Way was very mediocre for us. On paper I can see why others run it, but it just didn't perform the way I wanted.)
. Momentary Blink (Moved out of U/W since blue can't play it and the U/W deck doesn't really need it. W/u is a better classification) Soltari Champion (I finally got one!)
Red- Several changes made before we expanded Frazzled Editor----> Blood Knight (A couple of reasons here. 1st, Progenitus was cool as a 2/2, but not really that effective. 2nd, and more importantly, there were too many rules disputes and calls for me to add the textless versions of cards just to deal with him.) Volcanic Fallout ----> Pyroclasm (Humpty Dumpty was absolutely right. Thanks for the heads up man!) Hearth Kami ----> Smash to Smithereens (It came down to Kami versus Keldon Vandals for the drop, and that's not even close in my mind.)
Blue - Same deal as black, we just added cards to get to 59. Serendib Efreet and Psionic Blast are added to encourage aggro to splash U, since wtwlf123 speaks so highly of Blast. I'll also be adding Wake Thrasher when I get one, though I don't know what to drop for it yet. We can cross that bridge when we come to it though.
Artifacts and Gold additions- at this point, these are just suggestions to myself, because I only own some of the cards, but I'd like to get feedback on them anyway.
Lodestone Golem (Seems an obvious enough inclusion) Memory Jar (Asked about it earlier) Bottle Gnomes (My gift to people trying to survive Aggro) Winter Orb (Another 'Geddon effect that isn't really 'Geddon for aggro. My group doesn't mind [CARD=Hokori, Dust Drinker]Hokori, but still won't concede that we should play mass LD, so Orb is in) Mind Stone (I haven't missed Mind Stone since we took it out, to be honest, but the rest of the guys and gals suggested it and I haven't found something better)
I like most of those adds and changes, although I'd consider keeping the Hearth Kami in the cube. Especially after the expansion, it'll be nice to keep the artifact hate count high. I like it better than the Slaughtermaster and Kiki-Jiki, personally.
And ya, I do speak highly of Psionic Blast. It's blue removal, burn and a 2nd Char for the cube. What's not to like (besides the color pie mix-up)? Even though that card is older than Char, so ya.
@wtwlf123 - I definitely want to test Slaughtermaster at least, because I have dreams involving him and equipment. You're probably right about Kiki though. I added him back in as a concession to the fun factor, but he'll probably get replaced by the Kami.
@eidolon - Definitely see your point. I'd edge toward Recoil over Agony Warp I think. If I end up sticking with the original plan, it will be the card I add.
However, the more I think about it, the less good I feel about expanding the gold section. I've trimmed the gold section 3 times since I first built my cube, and have been happy with the change every time, so expanding it seems counterintuitive. I feel like I could just find cuts in order to add the 3 most powerful ones (Loam LionSarkhan VolBlazing Specter). Maybe I could expand the artifacts by another 5 cards and add 1 more to each color? (I have to admit the OCD part of me would much prefer an even 60 of each color) The problem there is coming up with artifacts to add.
I present what I think is another pretty solid upgrade to the cube, thanks to FNM.
Honor of the Pure ----> Glorious Anthem (FINALLY) Imperious Perfect ---> Uktabi Orangutan (It's not that I dislike the Perfect, I just think the artifact destruction is going to make more decks.) Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir ----> Rite of Replication(triple U is hard to manage.) Flickerwisp ----> Pianna, Nomad Captain (I loved Flickerwisp while he was in, but I want to test the captain and there aren't any other three drops in white that I feel like I want to drop.) Magus of the Scroll ---> Fireslinger (Slinger should have been in since the beginning. I only recently acquired a Cursed Scroll, at Christmas I believe, and I should have made this change back then, but better late than never) Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker ----> Hearth Kami (wtwlf123 was right) Glare of Subdual ----> Loam Lion (I haven't yet resolved my conundrum about expanding the gold section, so for now I'm just getting this guy in until I make up my mind.) White Knight ----> Kami of Ancient Law (There were too many WW men, and they were going very very late thanks to that. Zoo is much more popular than White Weenie, so I decided to go with the Unicorn here.) Rude Awakening ----> Ant Queen (Awakening has 3 months of mediocrity under its belt now, and it's time for it to leave. I will probably be replacing Ant Queen with the gain 7/draw a card wurm out of RoE, but my group couldn't take any more of an 8 mana spell that often didn't too more than 6 or 8 life in damage and cost several lands in the process. Not to mention that I'll have to trade for Mr. Wurm)
I'd also like to fit in Seal of Cleansing, but can't think of what to cut. Any help would be appreciated.
As always, thanks ahead of time for any input you have guys.
I like all of those changes, but I quite like White Knight still. Other people don't but I still find him good.
It's not that I dislike him, it's just the there were too many 2 drops with double colored mana. I like him a lot, I just think he's worse than Silver Knight, Knight of Meadowgrain, and Knight of the White Orchid. Would you suggest a different drop?
Ya, I actually prefer it to Stormfront Pegasus, Hokori, Dust Drinker and Battlegrace Angel, but I'm probably in the minority with this one. I think the Soltari brothers and White/Silver knight are nigh untouchable for the cube.
Ya, I actually prefer it to Stormfront Pegasus, Hokori, Dust Drinker and Battlegrace Angel, but I'm probably in the minority with this one. I think the Soltari brothers and White/Silver knight are nigh untouchable for the cube.
Well, before you suggest cutting Hokori, remember that I haven't managed to convince my group that Armageddon belongs in our cube, so he's filling that slot right now. If they ever agree to it, the change will be Hokori ---> Geddon.
Battlegrace Angel would be my drop, since the Pegasus is essentially another Soltari Trooper against a LOT of decks, at least for the first 2 or 3 turns that he's swinging. A splashable evasive beater has to be pretty bad for me to not want it.
I'll run Battlegrace ---> White Knight by the guys and gals and run a few drafts switching them in and out to test, definitely. Thanks!
EDIT - What do you guys think of me adding Life from the Loam to this cube? I don't have a lot of the cards that let you abuse it like Smokestack/Braids/etc. but is it good enough on its own merits?
It's not that I dislike him, it's just the there were too many 2 drops with double colored mana. I like him a lot, I just think he's worse than Silver Knight, Knight of Meadowgrain, and Knight of the White Orchid. Would you suggest a different drop?
Heh, I'm having the same problem. All those WW guys are good. However I'm of the opinion that both Sliver and White Knights are kind of attached to each other. If one is good enough to be in the cube, then both should be included. Same thing with Super Soltari Bros. I don't much like the Pegasus, but I get where you're coming from in terms of mana cost. I cut Battlegirl Angel a while back and haven't missed her, I think I'd rather have White Knight.
Heh, I'm having the same problem. All those WW guys are good. However I'm of the opinion that both Sliver and White Knights are kind of attached to each other. If one is good enough to be in the cube, then both should be included.
I actually think Silver Knight is quite a bit better than White Knight, at least in my cube. He sees a lot more play, probably because I run more burn than I do black removal. I'm glad to hear you think he should come back in though, it helps a lot.
Okay, so assuming a change of Battlegrace Angel to White Knight to get our WW friend back in here, and Arbor Elf to the new mana man from Rise, I still need to find cuts for the following cards out of RoE
What do you guys think? Do you have suggestions for cuts, or are these cards not strong enough to run?
Also, are the any artifacts that I am egregiously missing? (Keep in mind that a lot of fast mana is banned) I think I've decided to expand the artifacts since the cube expanded, instead of the gold section, but I can't come up with enough adds.
I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Marshal's Anthem has been crazy good for us so far. If my cube were a tighter build, then maybe, but as it is I think I'm going to be keeping it in for awhile.
Galepowder Mage has been solid, but not astounding. I'd like to keep him, but if it turns out that he's my weakest white card, then he'll have to go. I'll contemplate that one.
Right, so I think I'm blatantly ripping off wtwlf123's idea of replacing Living Death with Consuming Vapors, so I don't have to worry about finding that cut anymore.
I do need to find room for the new burn spells though. Forked Bolt definitely, and Skred Jr. for at least a little while (It'll have a permanent home if it's an Instant, if it's sorcery speed I'll just be testing.)
I think I'm going to cut Ghitu Encampment for one of them. (It should have been Barbarian Ring a long time ago, but I can never find one for trade.) As far as my red section I think it's by far the most underwhelming. I'm having trouble coming up with another drop though.
No way! Primal command is so much more useful than Loam, I honestly don't see the appeal of that card at all. Outside of a Strip Mine combo it seems like complete trash. Recurring a fetchland at the expense of your draw is awful unless you are mana screwed or you really need to get rid of the top 3 cards of your library. Loam loses a lot of value when you aren't running cycle lands and in a singleton format you can potentially mill a really important card from your deck. Yuck. On the other hand Primal command is insane because it greatly slows down whatever you opponent is doing; it's great when you are ahead or behind. It wins races like nobodies business and is a nice tempo 2 for 1 against control, they skip their draw and I get my most important creature? Yes please.
I think I'm going to cut Ghitu Encampment for one of them. (It should have been Barbarian Ring a long time ago, but I can never find one for trade.) As far as my red section I think it's by far the most underwhelming. I'm having trouble coming up with another drop though.
Really? I think Encampment is far better than Barbarian Ring. It doesnt damage you every time you tap it and Encampment is useful earlier in the game. A 2/1 first strike is actually pretty annoying to deal with in red because of all the direct damage and a manland is stronger than a shock against control.
I think Vapors will be a more all around solid card than Living Death.
And Loam works with a ton of different cards in the cube. All the fetchlands, wasteland effects, barbarian ring, gargadon, all the geddon effects, balance, zuran orb, stormbind, the masticores, mongrel, man-lands... and it's great against LD and discard. It seems like every time I draft it I find more and more uses for the card.
Agreed. In the mid-range mirror match, it's a great card. Cubes that don't have tons of aggro support will probably like it a lot more than my cube did. When half of the decks at the table are strong aggro decks, this card is just bad. Really. Aggro can't use it against control, and control can't use it against aggro.
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Here are some changes after last night's FNM.
Miraculous Recovery ----> Marshal's Anthem
Rout ----> Hokori, Dust Drinker (Since I can't play Armageddon
Hallowed Burial ---> Parallax Wave (Wave can be control or aggro, Burial cannot)
Demonfire ----> Molten Rain (X spells are getting splashed too often...I don't want every deck running red, and Demon is the worst of them I think)
Goblin Welder ----> Goblin Patrol (Welder never realized his potential)
Beacon of Destruction ----> Aftershock (I've heard good things about this card.)
Urza's Rage ----> Ghitu Slinger (It was never kicked, and 2 seems an awful lot to pay for uncounterability on a Lightning Bolt)
Innocent Blood ----> Doom Blade
Puppeteer Clique ----> Thrashing Wumpus
Slaughter Pact ----> Sudden Death (A discussion in eidolon's thread made me want to test this change)
Pact of Negation ----> Dismiss
Psionic Blast ----> Vedalkan Shackles (Blast wasn't seeing play outside of U/R counterburn, and I'm trying to remove cards that only work in one archetype)
Ninja of the Deep Hours ----> Crystal Shard (Putting Shard where it should have been all along)
Crystal Shard ---->Sigil of Distinction (Just filling Shard's old slot)
Lotus Bloom ----> Juggurnaut
Overrun ----> Woodfall Primus (Trying to give green something to ramp into. Overrun was hardly ever cast to effect.)
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
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Cutting the Wrath effects is my way of trying to nerf control...I know the answer to this is usually "Don't cut good cards, just add answers", but the thing is I'm really bothered by the 'Geddon thing. If aggro can't have its disruption to stop control, more wrath effects that help control stabilize seem unbalancing.
Catastrophe - I'll bet they will shoot it down, but I'll certainly try.
I actually hadn't considered cutting Liliana Vess, since all planeswalkers tend to be game changers. The only reason I'm not running Sarkan Vol is because I don't have one, and Tez is too narrow. I don't know how she compares to the Clique though. I may switch these in and out over time to try to get a better feel for them.
Which cards? If there's something that I could cut instead, I'd love to hear suggestions. EDIT: I looked over your list and saw Rout, Demonfire, Psionic Blast, Innocent Blood, and Goblin Welder, but can't find the 6th. Like I said, Demonfire is certainly not an issue of power, it's just that I don't want all 6 decks at a table having access to a Fireball effect. Innocent Blood is one of my favorite cards ever, as I mentioned earlier, and I hate to cut it, but Doom Blade seems really, really good, and I do want SOME limit on the number of removal spells in black. Goblin Welder just felt like a bad combo piece, and like I said I've never seen him do anything, and unlike Tinker he doesn't seem to make people want to build around him. I imagine because he's easy to remove before he becomes broken, but can't say that for sure. I just know he wasn't being picked or played.
See above for the reason I cut Rout.
[CARD]
Vedalkan Shackles[/CARD] looks incredible. Psionic Blast was actually a pretty easy cut, just because it was almost always in the sideboard of blue decks. Like I said, the only blue decks that were running it were the ones that had complimentary burn, and the other ones left it in the SB.
I think the blue players weren't running it because of fear of giving the opponent a free Shock, since aggro got a lot more popular after my last couple of updates. I also didn't see any aggro deck splashing blue for another Char like I expected they might when I included it, so it's not helping anyone. Do you mind if I ask how it's been good for you?
My list is getting really tight...I'd love to hear suggestions for cuts from anyone who has them.
Thanks so much for the input guys. I'll try to fit Rout back in before we draft again, and keep an eye on the general power of control decks to see if cutting it is the best move.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Also Shackles is completely unfair. Even with 2-3 islands it can crush an aggro deck all by itself. The fact that you need to be reasonably into blue balances out its obscene power level.
Psi Blast has been decent for us, enough so that it's in no position to be cut right now. It removes lots of big dudes and the two life isnt that B of a D.
Chrome Mox---->Ring of Gix
Chrome Mox was rarely drafted earlier than 13th pick, probably because it's so bad if you draw it in the late game. I imagine it would be a lot better if I ran fast mana artifacts alongside it, but as it is, it's just not performing.
I'm going to update the OP with this recent batch of changes soon, I just haven't gotten around to it.
I think it must be time for me to expand my cube to 450 cards, as hard a time as I've had with cutting stuff recently. We often have 5 people around anyway, and it wouldn't hurt to have Sealed as an option. What do you guys think, is there an "optimal" size for the cube?
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
The 6th one was Slaughter Pact.
I don't know... Rout and Psionic Blast are really good. Demonfire is a solid card, and Innocent Blood, Slaughter Pat and Goblin Welder have all been great in their respective archetypes. I use Welder against my opponent's artifacts just as often as I use it for my own. Innocent Blood is one of control's best removal spells in my cube because I can use it for a single black mana and leave other resources available for ramp or countermagic and the like.
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I've wanted to make this change since it was first suggested (Thanks again Nevermore )but I didn't own a Necromancy.
We've decided to make the jump to 450, so most of the awesome stuff that's been cut recently will probably be coming back in, and I'll be looking for some additions in the colors that haven't changed much. (Looking at you, U)
EDIT- I'm going to be working with the OP as I adjust my cube today, so the numbers might get a little wacky at times. As always, I'll post a list of changes when I'm done.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Another thing I want to mention is that aggro is now the dominant archetype, being run by 5 of the 6 people at our last draft. I'm going to try to tone it down just a bit by adding so quicker answers to it (Why we see the return of Perimeter Captain and Innocent Blood and the new 2 mana counterspell in Condescend.)
All right, let's get into it.
White - We made one minor change before beginning to add things.
Out ----> In
Harm's Way ---> Perimeter Captain (Harm's Way was very mediocre for us. On paper I can see why others run it, but it just didn't perform the way I wanted.)
Adds
.
Momentary Blink (Moved out of U/W since blue can't play it and the U/W deck doesn't really need it. W/u is a better classification)
Soltari Champion (I finally got one!)
Red- Several changes made before we expanded
Frazzled Editor----> Blood Knight (A couple of reasons here. 1st, Progenitus was cool as a 2/2, but not really that effective. 2nd, and more importantly, there were too many rules disputes and calls for me to add the textless versions of cards just to deal with him.)
Volcanic Fallout ----> Pyroclasm (Humpty Dumpty was absolutely right. Thanks for the heads up man!)
Hearth Kami ----> Smash to Smithereens (It came down to Kami versus Keldon Vandals for the drop, and that's not even close in my mind.)
Adds
Black - We didn't change anything here from last time, just added cards to get to the new number.
Adds
.
Nezumi Cutthroat (Placeholding for Bloodghast)
Silent Specter (We're testing this. Could end up switching back to Puppeteer Clique.)
Blue - Same deal as black, we just added cards to get to 59. Serendib Efreet and Psionic Blast are added to encourage aggro to splash U, since wtwlf123 speaks so highly of Blast. I'll also be adding Wake Thrasher when I get one, though I don't know what to drop for it yet. We can cross that bridge when we come to it though.
Adds
Green - attempting to provide for ramp/midrange decks mostly, since they are all but non-existent right now.
Adds
Lands
Vivid Lands ---> WWK Manlands
Gold changes- Just one
Boggart Ram Gang ---> Giant Solifuge (Finally got one of these, too.)
Artifacts and Gold additions- at this point, these are just suggestions to myself, because I only own some of the cards, but I'd like to get feedback on them anyway.
Lodestone Golem (Seems an obvious enough inclusion)
Memory Jar (Asked about it earlier)
Bottle Gnomes (My gift to people trying to survive Aggro)
Winter Orb (Another 'Geddon effect that isn't really 'Geddon for aggro. My group doesn't mind [CARD=Hokori, Dust Drinker]Hokori, but still won't concede that we should play mass LD, so Orb is in)
Mind Stone (I haven't missed Mind Stone since we took it out, to be honest, but the rest of the guys and gals suggested it and I haven't found something better)
All right, that's about it. Thanks for any input guys, it's always appreciated.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
And ya, I do speak highly of Psionic Blast. It's blue removal, burn and a 2nd Char for the cube. What's not to like (besides the color pie mix-up)? Even though that card is older than Char, so ya.
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@wtwlf123 - I definitely want to test Slaughtermaster at least, because I have dreams involving him and equipment. You're probably right about Kiki though. I added him back in as a concession to the fun factor, but he'll probably get replaced by the Kami.
@eidolon - Definitely see your point. I'd edge toward Recoil over Agony Warp I think. If I end up sticking with the original plan, it will be the card I add.
However, the more I think about it, the less good I feel about expanding the gold section. I've trimmed the gold section 3 times since I first built my cube, and have been happy with the change every time, so expanding it seems counterintuitive. I feel like I could just find cuts in order to add the 3 most powerful ones (Loam Lion Sarkhan Vol Blazing Specter). Maybe I could expand the artifacts by another 5 cards and add 1 more to each color? (I have to admit the OCD part of me would much prefer an even 60 of each color) The problem there is coming up with artifacts to add.
Thoughts?
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Honor of the Pure ----> Glorious Anthem (FINALLY)
Imperious Perfect ---> Uktabi Orangutan (It's not that I dislike the Perfect, I just think the artifact destruction is going to make more decks.)
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir ----> Rite of Replication(triple U is hard to manage.)
Flickerwisp ----> Pianna, Nomad Captain (I loved Flickerwisp while he was in, but I want to test the captain and there aren't any other three drops in white that I feel like I want to drop.)
Magus of the Scroll ---> Fireslinger (Slinger should have been in since the beginning. I only recently acquired a Cursed Scroll, at Christmas I believe, and I should have made this change back then, but better late than never)
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker ----> Hearth Kami (wtwlf123 was right)
Glare of Subdual ----> Loam Lion (I haven't yet resolved my conundrum about expanding the gold section, so for now I'm just getting this guy in until I make up my mind.)
White Knight ----> Kami of Ancient Law (There were too many WW men, and they were going very very late thanks to that. Zoo is much more popular than White Weenie, so I decided to go with the Unicorn here.)
Rude Awakening ----> Ant Queen (Awakening has 3 months of mediocrity under its belt now, and it's time for it to leave. I will probably be replacing Ant Queen with the gain 7/draw a card wurm out of RoE, but my group couldn't take any more of an 8 mana spell that often didn't too more than 6 or 8 life in damage and cost several lands in the process. Not to mention that I'll have to trade for Mr. Wurm)
I'd also like to fit in Seal of Cleansing, but can't think of what to cut. Any help would be appreciated.
As always, thanks ahead of time for any input you have guys.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
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It's not that I dislike him, it's just the there were too many 2 drops with double colored mana. I like him a lot, I just think he's worse than Silver Knight, Knight of Meadowgrain, and Knight of the White Orchid. Would you suggest a different drop?
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
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Well, before you suggest cutting Hokori, remember that I haven't managed to convince my group that Armageddon belongs in our cube, so he's filling that slot right now. If they ever agree to it, the change will be Hokori ---> Geddon.
Battlegrace Angel would be my drop, since the Pegasus is essentially another Soltari Trooper against a LOT of decks, at least for the first 2 or 3 turns that he's swinging. A splashable evasive beater has to be pretty bad for me to not want it.
I'll run Battlegrace ---> White Knight by the guys and gals and run a few drafts switching them in and out to test, definitely. Thanks!
EDIT - What do you guys think of me adding Life from the Loam to this cube? I don't have a lot of the cards that let you abuse it like Smokestack/Braids/etc. but is it good enough on its own merits?
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Heh, I'm having the same problem. All those WW guys are good. However I'm of the opinion that both Sliver and White Knights are kind of attached to each other. If one is good enough to be in the cube, then both should be included. Same thing with Super Soltari Bros. I don't much like the Pegasus, but I get where you're coming from in terms of mana cost. I cut Battlegirl Angel a while back and haven't missed her, I think I'd rather have White Knight.
I actually think Silver Knight is quite a bit better than White Knight, at least in my cube. He sees a lot more play, probably because I run more burn than I do black removal. I'm glad to hear you think he should come back in though, it helps a lot.
Okay, so assuming a change of Battlegrace Angel to White Knight to get our WW friend back in here, and Arbor Elf to the new mana man from Rise, I still need to find cuts for the following cards out of RoE
I could probably cut Perimeter Captain for the wall, and Parallax Wave for Gideon. Otherwise I find my list of white cards getting pretty tight.
And I'd like to find cuts for the following cards that have been on my "to do" list.
What do you guys think? Do you have suggestions for cuts, or are these cards not strong enough to run?
Also, are the any artifacts that I am egregiously missing? (Keep in mind that a lot of fast mana is banned) I think I've decided to expand the artifacts since the cube expanded, instead of the gold section, but I can't come up with enough adds.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
I the cutting perimeter Captain for the Wall of omens is a good upgrade. I would cut Temporal Isolation for Student of Warfare, and I would cut Marshal's Anthem for Gideon Jura. I wouldn't remove parallax wave. Fantastic on both offense or defense, and a fun combo with your own 187 creatures+wrath effects.
I am not too sure what to cut for mana tithe? maybe Galepowder Mage? I wouldn't play seal of cleansing here unless you want to change disenchant for it.
I would cut Briarhorn, Primal Command or Creeping Mold for life from the loam.
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
I'm glad you like the Perimeter Captain drop though. I agree with dropping Temporal Isolation for Student, thanks for that suggestion!
Galepowder Mage has been solid, but not astounding. I'd like to keep him, but if it turns out that he's my weakest white card, then he'll have to go. I'll contemplate that one.
I actually think I'm going to cut Briarhorn for the new green guy, Vengevine. I could definitely see Primal Command going for Life from the Loam.
Lotus Cobra is another card that I've been trying to get for awhile that I need to find a place for, while we're at it.
Okay, so that brings my proposed RoE changes to
Briarhorn ---> Vengevine
Ant Queen ---> Pelakka Wurm
Arbor Elf ---> Mana Man
??? ---> Gideon Jura
Perimeter Captain ---> Wall of Omens
Temporal Isolation ---> Student of Warfare
Lots of love for green and white. I wish they'd share with red.
Ah well. What do you guys think?
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
Seems like a good update. I like the Temporal Isolation and Briarhorn, but all the other cards won't be missed.
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I do need to find room for the new burn spells though. Forked Bolt definitely, and Skred Jr. for at least a little while (It'll have a permanent home if it's an Instant, if it's sorcery speed I'll just be testing.)
I think I'm going to cut Ghitu Encampment for one of them. (It should have been Barbarian Ring a long time ago, but I can never find one for trade.) As far as my red section I think it's by far the most underwhelming. I'm having trouble coming up with another drop though.
Cube and EDH are pretty much the best Magic formats in the world. If you aren't playing them, you should be.
No way! Primal command is so much more useful than Loam, I honestly don't see the appeal of that card at all. Outside of a Strip Mine combo it seems like complete trash. Recurring a fetchland at the expense of your draw is awful unless you are mana screwed or you really need to get rid of the top 3 cards of your library. Loam loses a lot of value when you aren't running cycle lands and in a singleton format you can potentially mill a really important card from your deck. Yuck. On the other hand Primal command is insane because it greatly slows down whatever you opponent is doing; it's great when you are ahead or behind. It wins races like nobodies business and is a nice tempo 2 for 1 against control, they skip their draw and I get my most important creature? Yes please.
Really? I think Encampment is far better than Barbarian Ring. It doesnt damage you every time you tap it and Encampment is useful earlier in the game. A 2/1 first strike is actually pretty annoying to deal with in red because of all the direct damage and a manland is stronger than a shock against control.
Ghitu Encampment is great, and should stay in for sure, IMO.
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And Loam works with a ton of different cards in the cube. All the fetchlands, wasteland effects, barbarian ring, gargadon, all the geddon effects, balance, zuran orb, stormbind, the masticores, mongrel, man-lands... and it's great against LD and discard. It seems like every time I draft it I find more and more uses for the card.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!