I think this card is much better than Glorybringer, FWIW. No matter how good the cards are head-to-head when played for 5 mana, Glorybringer can't be a free spell that kills multiple targets.
And in aggro, I don't think it's close. This is pretty much the only 5cc card I want to play in that deck. Again, because it doubles as a free spell.
I would not maindeck this in red aggro or / ramp, but this is a card I think I would play in most of the secondary red decks like Through the Breach/Sneak Attack to clean up tokens for the Annihilator triggers and to help vs aggro, and in Reanimator to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite the board when combined with a reanitmator spell while developing a 3/3 doublestrike (which is nothing to sneeze at), and can be potent in control to beat up on fair decks, and then obviously is solid in most red midrange gameplans. Card works great with recurring nightmare/restoration angel/Liliana, Death's Majesty too, but I just don't know how often this will see maindeck play.
We generally try to avoid purely "midrange value" cards, but this does have mainboard applications in other decks, sort of like Arc Lightning/Flames of the Firebrand (which we don't play). Not sure where that leaves this, but I think me and the playgroup will have to weigh out the pros and cons to this guy because I really don't know where I stand on it.
I’m so confused how free removal isn’t great in Aggro decks...
It's not free, it costs you a card. Yeah, sometimes you can pitch a now-irrelevant one-drop and it's great. Other times your hand will be this and burn spells, or just this, and it's pretty bad then. Aggro decks will certainly trade card advantage for damage, but they generally don't have much in the way of card advantage so losing a spell is a much bigger deal in aggro than in a deck that can refill or regularly 2-for-1.
going to be lots of times where this wipes your opponents board to clear the way for a lethal attack, or come down as a creature remove any blockers and set yourself up to swing with a 3/3 double striker on the next turn.
I’m so confused how free removal isn’t great in Aggro decks...
The same reason pyrokinesis isn't good in agro is the same reason cards like flame slash aren't great in the maindeck of an agro deck. Situational/reactive cards that don't contribute to your linear gameplan have a big opportunity cost when they aren't good. Plenty of archetypes in cube don't use low toughness blockers to win vs agro.
I'm struggling with this card. I feel like it can be kinda feast-or-famine in its playability, and I don't like that in most cube cards.
What I like about the ability:
-you can thwart early aggro pushes at card parity, just like pyrokinesis
-you can clear token blockers, or kill a single tough blocker like Brimaz
-you can kill low-loyalty PWs, something pyrokinesis could never do.
-like the rest of the cycle, the evoke is 0 mana, so you can cast this and a haste dude like Hellrider in the same turn and go to town.
What I like about casting creature mode:
-Should be a 2-for-1 or better. As much as the 3/3 doublestrike body absolutely disgusts me, it's capable of killing aggro creatures coming your way, and 6 damage isn't something a control deck can ignore for too long either.
What I dislike about the ability:
-There are flat-out bad targets. If you even think about evoking this to clear a Wall of Omens to push through damage, you're down approximately a billion cards. To avoid this, you'd want the creature mode, and I feel like 5 mana is a bit much for this kind of removal, particularly because you also won't get enough damage to deal with Baneslayer, Thundermaw, or Polukranos either. My bias here is that it feels miserable next to Solitude, which can remove a Goblin Guide or a Blightsteel Colossus. This can...kill multiple x/1s and other junk, but nothing big. But does that necessarily make Fury bad? I don't know, but my gut says yes. Honestly, even +1 damage might have made me feel quite a bit better.
-PW targets can already be killed by haste flyers, as already argued by asmallcat. Rebuttal that these creatures die to spot removal is not highly persuasive to me. If people can hold open a Hero's Downfall to kill my Thundermaw, I feel like that deck probably only had about 2 relevant targets for Fury's burn anyway, making this IMO a very marginal opportunity for greater value than the alternatives.
-MUST find a target; Solitude and even Subtlety avoid self-targeting, Grief and Endurance don't really care, but Fury cannot be played onto an empty field. Apparently you can choose zero targets, which I was entirely oblivious to
-Not instant speed
I don't feel bad about it not going face, because I think that would have probably opened a huge can of worms. But, I feel that given its restrictions it could have been meaningfully boosted for damage without becoming ridiculous. That, or something else. I dunno. At the moment, this is a card I could reasonably include in my list, but I'll probably just scowl whenever I see it because I just simply hate it.
-MUST find a target; Solitude and even Subtlety avoid self-targeting, Grief and Endurance don't really care, but Fury cannot be played onto an empty field.
Literally didn't even notice that until I read your comment.
**** why do they keep doing this, just make it a "may" for god's sake. We're probably still going to test it but this type of stuff always bothers me
-MUST find a target; Solitude and even Subtlety avoid self-targeting, Grief and Endurance don't really care, but Fury cannot be played onto an empty field.
Literally didn't even notice that until I read your comment.
**** why do they keep doing this, just make it a "may" for god's sake. We're probably still going to test it but this type of stuff always bothers me
-MUST find a target; Solitude and even Subtlety avoid self-targeting, Grief and Endurance don't really care, but Fury cannot be played onto an empty field.
Literally didn't even notice that until I read your comment.
**** why do they keep doing this, just make it a "may" for god's sake. We're probably still going to test it but this type of stuff always bothers me
Wait is it a must? I thought the "any number of targets" let you pick 0. See e.g. the oracle rulings on Kuldotha Flamefiend "You may choose zero targets. If you do, Kuldotha Flamefiend deals no damage, but you may sacrifice an artifact."
-MUST find a target; Solitude and even Subtlety avoid self-targeting, Grief and Endurance don't really care, but Fury cannot be played onto an empty field.
Literally didn't even notice that until I read your comment.
**** why do they keep doing this, just make it a "may" for god's sake. We're probably still going to test it but this type of stuff always bothers me
Any number can be 0
I see. My mistake. Thanks for the correction, everyone.
Sorry about that. I should maybe learn how to play this game sometime
They've worded this ability like 16 different ways over the years, and we've learned that unless there's a may you have to do it, so it's easy to misread this one. Why they've forgone may just to save 4 characters in the text box is beyond me.
I think a 3/3 double strike splittable FTK is solid but not spectacular. What's cool is we can play this in aggro as a Pyrokinesis-esque removal and a fallback 5 drop. Our aggro decks are topping at 1-3 four drops with maybe a Sword of X and Y as a pseudo-five drop. Definitely going to try this along the white and black ones.
Going through the numbers in my 3-0 archive, Fury is currently the most represented red card in 3-0 decks over the past 66 drafts (since NEO release) and the most represented in the cycle. While being the most represented card doesn't necessarily means it's the best card, I'm pretty comfortable with saying that Fury is a top tier red card, and is easily the strongest 5-cmc generic red card, period.
Yup, card is nutso. It turned out quite a bit less situational than I was expecting (planeswalkers is key) and the upside of it combined with cheap reanimation spells is really high.
When it was first spoiled I thought grief was clearly better but now I think fury is clearly better.
Though, I stand by my point that it’s nothing special in Agro and glorybringer is slightly better than it in precisely red Agro haha.
It’s way better in other archetypes than I thought (and a fine playable in Agro)
And in aggro, I don't think it's close. This is pretty much the only 5cc card I want to play in that deck. Again, because it doubles as a free spell.
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I would not maindeck this in red aggro or / ramp, but this is a card I think I would play in most of the secondary red decks like Through the Breach/Sneak Attack to clean up tokens for the Annihilator triggers and to help vs aggro, and in Reanimator to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite the board when combined with a reanitmator spell while developing a 3/3 doublestrike (which is nothing to sneeze at), and can be potent in control to beat up on fair decks, and then obviously is solid in most red midrange gameplans. Card works great with recurring nightmare/restoration angel/Liliana, Death's Majesty too, but I just don't know how often this will see maindeck play.
We generally try to avoid purely "midrange value" cards, but this does have mainboard applications in other decks, sort of like Arc Lightning/Flames of the Firebrand (which we don't play). Not sure where that leaves this, but I think me and the playgroup will have to weigh out the pros and cons to this guy because I really don't know where I stand on it.
It's not free, it costs you a card. Yeah, sometimes you can pitch a now-irrelevant one-drop and it's great. Other times your hand will be this and burn spells, or just this, and it's pretty bad then. Aggro decks will certainly trade card advantage for damage, but they generally don't have much in the way of card advantage so losing a spell is a much bigger deal in aggro than in a deck that can refill or regularly 2-for-1.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
going to be lots of times where this wipes your opponents board to clear the way for a lethal attack, or come down as a creature remove any blockers and set yourself up to swing with a 3/3 double striker on the next turn.
going to love this!
The same reason pyrokinesis isn't good in agro is the same reason cards like flame slash aren't great in the maindeck of an agro deck. Situational/reactive cards that don't contribute to your linear gameplan have a big opportunity cost when they aren't good. Plenty of archetypes in cube don't use low toughness blockers to win vs agro.
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What I like about the ability:
-you can thwart early aggro pushes at card parity, just like pyrokinesis
-you can clear token blockers, or kill a single tough blocker like Brimaz
-you can kill low-loyalty PWs, something pyrokinesis could never do.
-like the rest of the cycle, the evoke is 0 mana, so you can cast this and a haste dude like Hellrider in the same turn and go to town.
What I like about casting creature mode:
-Should be a 2-for-1 or better. As much as the 3/3 doublestrike body absolutely disgusts me, it's capable of killing aggro creatures coming your way, and 6 damage isn't something a control deck can ignore for too long either.
What I dislike about the ability:
-There are flat-out bad targets. If you even think about evoking this to clear a Wall of Omens to push through damage, you're down approximately a billion cards. To avoid this, you'd want the creature mode, and I feel like 5 mana is a bit much for this kind of removal, particularly because you also won't get enough damage to deal with Baneslayer, Thundermaw, or Polukranos either. My bias here is that it feels miserable next to Solitude, which can remove a Goblin Guide or a Blightsteel Colossus. This can...kill multiple x/1s and other junk, but nothing big. But does that necessarily make Fury bad? I don't know, but my gut says yes. Honestly, even +1 damage might have made me feel quite a bit better.
-PW targets can already be killed by haste flyers, as already argued by asmallcat. Rebuttal that these creatures die to spot removal is not highly persuasive to me. If people can hold open a Hero's Downfall to kill my Thundermaw, I feel like that deck probably only had about 2 relevant targets for Fury's burn anyway, making this IMO a very marginal opportunity for greater value than the alternatives.
-
MUST find a target; Solitude and even Subtlety avoid self-targeting, Grief and Endurance don't really care, but Fury cannot be played onto an empty field.Apparently you can choose zero targets, which I was entirely oblivious to-Not instant speed
I don't feel bad about it not going face, because I think that would have probably opened a huge can of worms. But, I feel that given its restrictions it could have been meaningfully boosted for damage without becoming ridiculous. That, or something else. I dunno. At the moment, this is a card I could reasonably include in my list, but I'll probably just scowl whenever I see it because I just simply hate it.
Literally didn't even notice that until I read your comment.
**** why do they keep doing this, just make it a "may" for god's sake. We're probably still going to test it but this type of stuff always bothers me
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Any number can be 0
Wait is it a must? I thought the "any number of targets" let you pick 0. See e.g. the oracle rulings on Kuldotha Flamefiend "You may choose zero targets. If you do, Kuldotha Flamefiend deals no damage, but you may sacrifice an artifact."
Edit - MTG salv doesn't have oracle rulings, so here's scryfall - https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/134/kuldotha-flamefiend
Edit 2 - Lol super ninja'ed.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I see. My mistake. Thanks for the correction, everyone.
Yeah you guys are on-point lmao
Sorry about that. I should maybe learn how to play this game sometime
They've worded this ability like 16 different ways over the years, and we've learned that unless there's a may you have to do it, so it's easy to misread this one. Why they've forgone may just to save 4 characters in the text box is beyond me.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Chrome Mox: 16
Caldaia Guardian: 14
Hexdrinker: 12
Skullclamp: 12
Birds of Paradise: 11
Thraben Inspector: 11
Smuggler's Copter: 10
Fiery Islet: 10
Blood Crypt: 10
Blightstep Pathway: 10
True-Name Nemesis: 9
Ash Barrens: 9
Karakas: 9
Pest Infestation: 9
Sylvan Library: 9
City of Brass: 9
Wooded Foothills: 9
Badlands: 9
Fury: 9
Godless Shrine: 9
White Plume Adventurer: 8
Deep Forest Hermit: 8
Shark Typhoon: 8
Horizon Canopy: 8
Urza's Saga: 8
Oko, Thief of Crowns: 8
Swords to Plowshares: 8
Marsh Flats: 8
Mox Diamond: 8
Restoration Angel: 8
Bloodstained Mire: 8
Solitude: 8
Scrubland: 8
Demonic Tutor: 8
Grist, the Hunger Tide: 8
Mana Confluence: 8
Abundant Harvest: 8
Forked Bolt: 8
Gaea's Cradle: 8
Sleight of Hand: 7
Blade Splicer: 7
Remand: 7
Retrofitter Foundry: 7
Tundra: 7
Deranged Hermit: 7
Fyndhorn Elves: 7
Undermountain Adventurer: 7
Turntimber Symbiosis: 7
Fabled Passage: 7
Tropical Island: 7
Ignoble Hierarch: 7
Portable Hole: 7
Flametongue Yearling: 7
Flickerwisp: 7
Brainstorm: 7
Recurring Nightmare: 7
Talisman of Conviction: 7
Control Magic: 7
Overgrown Tomb: 7
Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes: 7
Force of Will: 7
Ancient Tomb: 7
Verdant Catacombs: 7
Thoughtseize: 7
Ravenous Chupacabra: 7
Bloodchief's Thirst: 7
Laelia, the Blade Reforged: 7
Spectral Procession: 7
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When it was first spoiled I thought grief was clearly better but now I think fury is clearly better.
Though, I stand by my point that it’s nothing special in Agro and glorybringer is slightly better than it in precisely red Agro haha.
It’s way better in other archetypes than I thought (and a fine playable in Agro)
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I'd say it's in my top 5-ish red cards alongside Ragavan / Lightning Bolt / Sneak Attack / Fiery Confluence / Chandra, Torch of Defiance.
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i'd say its 3rd best, just b/c its more flexible & easier to cast; allowing it to go into more decks than say sneak attack
Yeah, I mean, I think fury is quite plausibly better than both of those, and the other 3 cards Steve man mentioned as well. Laelia is up there too
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