Pyrokinesis is not quite cube-worthy for most people, but this has a few upsides over it (can target planeswalkers, creature mode). It doesn't have flash, however. I wish it was straight bolt, but this probably warrants some testing! A 2(or more)- for-2 without paying mana is definitely decent.
I had also put my hopes up for a flash lightning bolt that would put flametongue to shame.
But we have this now. Comparing it to flametongue, a creature that is beginning to show its age. 3/3 double strike is much stronger than a 4/2, and splitting 4 damage is quite powerful, as is the ability to hit planeswalkers. Clearing 1-2 tokens and dealing the rest of leftover planeswalkers might be a common line with the amount of planeswalkers that put out tokens. The evoke is really powerful against aggro decks.
Pyrokensis has a low floor but high ceiling. Borderline oppressive against agressive starts or mana elves. 0 mana 3 for 2 isn't a rare occurrence in creature matchups.
The alternate hard casting mode of a 3/3 double strike with ETB is very strong. Hard to imagine there won't be a creature or a planeswalker on the battlefield by the time it's cast to get some value out of it.
Unfortunately it's mainly a sideboard card for red agro, and is on the reactive side for combo/ramp red archetypes.
Fury is very much a midrange/control card in a color that only has auxiliary support for those archetypes. This is relevant because having enough red cards to exile may sometimes be difficult.
To me this is 4th place in the cycle for cube and has a higher chance of not pasting the testing phase than the esper ones... However, despite it's shortcomings, I believe it's power level is high enough to overcome them.
Was really hoping red would be the best in the cycle as it always gets the *****tiest free spell in the cycle. Unfortunately this isn’t that, but who knows maybe it’s better than it looks.
Card looks good to me. Has a favorable comparison to FTK as a value creature, and has a pitch Pyrokinesis mode that can also hit 'walkers. It's going to be really easy to 2-for-2 (or even 3-for-2 sometimes) with the pitch mode. I'm in for this.
I actually think this is a really good card for red aggro. Free removal that can clear 4-toughness blockers (or clear multiple blockers) is sweet, and it's a way to shoehorn in a harder-hitting monster into a deck that wants a low curve. I don't like to play 5-drops in my aggro deck, but it's nice to have a beefier creature that I can sneak into my final 40 in a 0cc spell disguise.
Was really hoping red would be the best in the cycle as it always gets the *****tiest free spell in the cycle. Unfortunately this isn’t that, but who knows maybe it’s better than it looks.
I'll just throw this out here and see what others think:
I think this is actually the best card in the pitch evoke cycle.
My reasoning is as follows: as people smarter than me have pointed out, the pitch evoke cycle cards differ from cards like Force of Will in that FoW is either card disadvantage (two cards to get rid of one spell) or card neutral (1-for-1), whereas the pitch evoke cards have a CDA mode (two cards for a spell) AND a CA mode (creature + spell). Even the CDA mode comes with the added bonus of binning a creature, which can be useful for some but not all deck types.
BUT, unless I'm missing something, Fury is the only card in this cycle that has a situational CA mode within the pitch mode, in that you can sometimes destroy three blockers or two tokens and a PW. Thus, "best card", in terms of CA - all the other pitch elementals are good, but their pitch modes are CDA. And no, I don't think the high CMC for the creature mode matters enough to make it worse than any of the others, it either helps close out a game by pitching or come back from an unwinnable situation which is likely to happen if the game goes long anyway. What am I missing?
(All that said, even if I think this a slam-dunk, I was a bit disappointed in that I don't think this card necessarily helps what I think is one of the bigger issues with red in cube, that being red aggro being overshadowed by white aggro and struggling to hold the title of Fun Police. YMMV, but I feel like white aggro has been the best aggro deck for a while given how it can attack from different angles, but this is with the caveat that I haven't been able to play cubes other than the MTGO iterations for a while now.)
Ha! As predicted in the Grief thread, the red one can't go to face, and is trash for aggressive decks. Also no flash. COME ON. At least it's better than force of garbage or whatever the red one that made elementals was (I still LOL at them thinking that card was remotely on the same level as the blue one), but pyrokinesis is NOT a good card, even at instant speed, nor is this one. I have 0 interest in aggro in a card that's either a 5 drop or makes me pitch an almost certainly relevant card just to clear a blocker, maybe 2.
This is probably playable in non-aggro decks (compares favorably to FTK in any deck that is happy with 5-drops, I will probably test it over FTK or another red 4), but I'm so annoyed they gave us evoke pyrokinesis instead of evoke bolt.
I think this will play better than it looks since many cube threats have relatively low toughness. Not sure if I like it better than my suite of red 5 drops, but I might give it a try. I love double strike too... I don't know though, cuts are hard.
I think this is strong. Dividable burn is really valuable, even it it can't hit face. This is the one in the cycle that can break even / come up ahead with its Evoke mode and can completely blow out a lot of aggro / midrange decks. This is also scary when cast since it clears the path to get in there with its double strike.
This seems pretty good to me. I think it competes with Glorybringer for a slot for me.
I think that's pretty close - trading flying for the 6 power, more etb shenanigans and flexibility. I'll either just watch this or make this swap.
Some cubes might even want to bite the bullet and swap this for Flametongue Kavu, I think that's reasonable.
I was never expecting flash on the red one, because red hardly gets flash in its slice of pie. Mythic rare would be where it’s at though. Not mad at this. Kind of like snuff, I like free cards in aggro decks that let me clear the way while tapping out to keep pressure up so I can it playing a lot like that.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills lol. Pyrokinesis has been on no one's cube radar for a long time as far as I know, and the evoke effect on this is essentially the same, if slightly worse (trading instant speed for the ability to hit a walker), so you're relying on the creature half to put it over the top, and the creature half is something that I really don't want in aggro decks. It's 5 mana, meaning it's competing in aggro with things like Glorybringer and Thundermaw, as well as the plothora of good red 4's for aggro, and it's a terrible post-wrath play unless they have a PW in play (I'm assuming you can pick 0 targets so it doesn't have to kill itself on an empty board).
As I said, I would happily play this in midrange lists as it's probably just better than FTK. But in aggro I don't think this would ever make my final 40, but might come in as a sideboard card against the green decks with lots of elves or the aggro mirror where you will always get the 2-for-2 and have an outside chance at a 3-for-2, but that's pretty narrow.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills lol. Pyrokinesis has been on no one's cube radar for a long time as far as I know, and the evoke effect on this is essentially the same, if slightly worse (trading instant speed for the ability to hit a walker), so you're relying on the creature half to put it over the top, and the creature half is something that I really don't want in aggro decks. It's 5 mana, meaning it's competing in aggro with things like Glorybringer and Thundermaw, as well as the plothora of good red 4's for aggro, and it's a terrible post-wrath play unless they have a PW in play (I'm assuming you can pick 0 targets so it doesn't have to kill itself on an empty board).
As I said, I would happily play this in midrange lists as it's probably just better than FTK. But in aggro I don't think this would ever make my final 40, but might come in as a sideboard card against the green decks with lots of elves or the aggro mirror where you will always get the 2-for-2 and have an outside chance at a 3-for-2, but that's pretty narrow.
Pyrokinesis is very good at what it does. It'd be on my radar if it was a lot more flexibile, which this is.
I think Fury is way better than Glorybringer due to its higher board impact and evoke option. I typically don't curve 5-drops in my aggro decks, but I would gladly play this in a mono / heavy red aggro deck over any other red 5-drop to control the board / have as a late game finisher against decks that want to grind. This also really helps tremendously vs midrange, which is traditionally aggro's toughest matchup.
As far as the cycle goes, this is in my top 3 alongside Grief / Solitude.
I like this more than any other red 5-drop that isn't a critical archetype enabler / payoff like Kiki-Jiki / Zealous Conscripts / Through the Breach. I think this easily better overall than Siege-Gang Commander / Thundermaw Hellkite / Glorybringer / etc.
I like this more than any other red 5-drop that isn't a critical archetype enabler / payoff like Kiki-Jiki / Zealous Conscripts / Through the Breach. I think this easily better overall than Siege-Gang Commander / Thundermaw Hellkite / Glorybringer / etc.
I think there is no way this is better than glorybringer TBQH. Yeah, the flexibility is nice, but glorybringer is such a bigger impact when you play it on 5 than this is and it doesn't die to all the bolt variants. And thundermaw is just such a reliable finisher I haven't found a more consistent top end that essentially guarantees you're getting in for 5 no matter what, although I am definitely higher on thundermaw than the consensus.
It might be better than siege gang, which has definitely waned by comparison over the years, but siege-gang gives you such inevitability if it isn't killed. I think the swap for this is FTK, not one of the 5's, unless you're rigidly enforcing CMC slots.
I think there is no way this is better than glorybringer TBQH. Yeah, the flexibility is nice, but glorybringer is such a bigger impact when you play it on 5 than this is and it doesn't die to all the bolt variants. And thundermaw is just such a reliable finisher I haven't found a more consistent top end that essentially guarantees you're getting in for 5 no matter what, although I am definitely higher on thundermaw than the consensus.
I think this is easily better than Glorybringer, which I always viewed as overrated / generally worse than Thundermaw Hellkite anyways.
- Fury's ETB trigger way more powerful than Glorybringer's exert trigger, but it can't be stopped by your opponent just merely killing it before it can attack.
- Fury's ETB trigger is more abusable with blink / recursion.
- Fury is more flexible with its evoke ability.
Glorybringer definitely has some better qualities like haste / flying / doesn't die to Bolt / etc. But unless your opponent has exactly 0-1 targets for Glorybringer to hit, Fury is generally going to have a higher immediate impact on the board.
Bringer can clear almost any flyer in the cube and deal 4 to a PW, can kill a utility creature and do 4 to a PW, can just straight do 4 to a PW if there's no blockers in play and be around to attack next turn, and can do 4 hasty damage to the face, not to mention can kill creatures that come down later, something fury can't do, not to mention the evasion. Time will tell of course, but I think glorbyringer will remain the premier red 5 (outside of combo enablers).
I have to agree that Glorybringer is better. Being able to bash a PW and kill a creature is gas.
I still like Fury since it interacts favorably with blink, reanimation, Sneak Attack, etc. I'm only running 3 5 mana red creatures so I think I can squeeze it in.
I've been dying to see the Red card of this cycle, and Fury does not disappoint. The cubeability of Pyrokinesis is an insignificant factor when evaluating this card. Unmask is not a card people are interested in, yet that's not going to stop anyone from cubing Grief. The more relevant comparisons are to its siblings in the cycle, which is when you start seeing how absurd Fury is. Whereas the other Incarnations had roughly 1.5 CMC effects strapped to them, a conservative estimate for a watered down Mythos of Vadrok is 2.5 mana. And barring blowouts from Solitude, Fury's is the only effect that can generate card advantage. This all goes to show how good Fury is when it's evoked, but what of its hard cast mode? As others have already pointed out, it is one hell of a souped up Flametongue Kavu. The ability to divide damage, hit planeswalkers, and play on an empty board more than makes up for being 1 mana more expensive. The Double Strike is just gravy, which really goes to show how much of an absolute bomb this card is. I'm with Steve_Man on this one; Fury is Red's best "5-drop".
I think Fury will be better than glorybringer on average, but not in red Agro.
Their hardcast bodies are not comparible.
4/4 Flying haste >>> 3/3 double strike
Repeatable removal ~= stronger ETB effect
Pyrokinesis is great in red agro against some decks and situations, but it's super bad in others.
Red agro isn't a deck that snowballs off of one threat or overkills , it's a deck that wins by thin margins and requires all it's resources to do so. Unless you can get a minimum 2 for 2 off pyrokinesis , it's bad. A dead/situational card in a deck that needs all it's resources to contribute to it's gameplan is a big fail.
The additional hardcast option makes the card less situational and more powerful, but not enough to compete with thundermaw/glorybringer in Agro.
Pyrokinesis is not quite cube-worthy for most people, but this has a few upsides over it (can target planeswalkers, creature mode). It doesn't have flash, however. I wish it was straight bolt, but this probably warrants some testing! A 2(or more)- for-2 without paying mana is definitely decent.
But we have this now. Comparing it to flametongue, a creature that is beginning to show its age. 3/3 double strike is much stronger than a 4/2, and splitting 4 damage is quite powerful, as is the ability to hit planeswalkers. Clearing 1-2 tokens and dealing the rest of leftover planeswalkers might be a common line with the amount of planeswalkers that put out tokens. The evoke is really powerful against aggro decks.
It feels like it warants testing.
The alternate hard casting mode of a 3/3 double strike with ETB is very strong. Hard to imagine there won't be a creature or a planeswalker on the battlefield by the time it's cast to get some value out of it.
Unfortunately it's mainly a sideboard card for red agro, and is on the reactive side for combo/ramp red archetypes.
Fury is very much a midrange/control card in a color that only has auxiliary support for those archetypes. This is relevant because having enough red cards to exile may sometimes be difficult.
To me this is 4th place in the cycle for cube and has a higher chance of not pasting the testing phase than the esper ones... However, despite it's shortcomings, I believe it's power level is high enough to overcome them.
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Definitely in the growing suite of cards that aren't purely for aggro.
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I'll just throw this out here and see what others think:
I think this is actually the best card in the pitch evoke cycle.
My reasoning is as follows: as people smarter than me have pointed out, the pitch evoke cycle cards differ from cards like Force of Will in that FoW is either card disadvantage (two cards to get rid of one spell) or card neutral (1-for-1), whereas the pitch evoke cards have a CDA mode (two cards for a spell) AND a CA mode (creature + spell). Even the CDA mode comes with the added bonus of binning a creature, which can be useful for some but not all deck types.
BUT, unless I'm missing something, Fury is the only card in this cycle that has a situational CA mode within the pitch mode, in that you can sometimes destroy three blockers or two tokens and a PW. Thus, "best card", in terms of CA - all the other pitch elementals are good, but their pitch modes are CDA. And no, I don't think the high CMC for the creature mode matters enough to make it worse than any of the others, it either helps close out a game by pitching or come back from an unwinnable situation which is likely to happen if the game goes long anyway. What am I missing?
(All that said, even if I think this a slam-dunk, I was a bit disappointed in that I don't think this card necessarily helps what I think is one of the bigger issues with red in cube, that being red aggro being overshadowed by white aggro and struggling to hold the title of Fun Police. YMMV, but I feel like white aggro has been the best aggro deck for a while given how it can attack from different angles, but this is with the caveat that I haven't been able to play cubes other than the MTGO iterations for a while now.)
This is probably playable in non-aggro decks (compares favorably to FTK in any deck that is happy with 5-drops, I will probably test it over FTK or another red 4), but I'm so annoyed they gave us evoke pyrokinesis instead of evoke bolt.
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I think that's pretty close - trading flying for the 6 power, more etb shenanigans and flexibility. I'll either just watch this or make this swap.
Some cubes might even want to bite the bullet and swap this for Flametongue Kavu, I think that's reasonable.
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As I said, I would happily play this in midrange lists as it's probably just better than FTK. But in aggro I don't think this would ever make my final 40, but might come in as a sideboard card against the green decks with lots of elves or the aggro mirror where you will always get the 2-for-2 and have an outside chance at a 3-for-2, but that's pretty narrow.
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Pyrokinesis is very good at what it does. It'd be on my radar if it was a lot more flexibile, which this is.
I think Fury is way better than Glorybringer due to its higher board impact and evoke option. I typically don't curve 5-drops in my aggro decks, but I would gladly play this in a mono / heavy red aggro deck over any other red 5-drop to control the board / have as a late game finisher against decks that want to grind. This also really helps tremendously vs midrange, which is traditionally aggro's toughest matchup.
As far as the cycle goes, this is in my top 3 alongside Grief / Solitude.
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I think there is no way this is better than glorybringer TBQH. Yeah, the flexibility is nice, but glorybringer is such a bigger impact when you play it on 5 than this is and it doesn't die to all the bolt variants. And thundermaw is just such a reliable finisher I haven't found a more consistent top end that essentially guarantees you're getting in for 5 no matter what, although I am definitely higher on thundermaw than the consensus.
It might be better than siege gang, which has definitely waned by comparison over the years, but siege-gang gives you such inevitability if it isn't killed. I think the swap for this is FTK, not one of the 5's, unless you're rigidly enforcing CMC slots.
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I think this is easily better than Glorybringer, which I always viewed as overrated / generally worse than Thundermaw Hellkite anyways.
- Fury's ETB trigger way more powerful than Glorybringer's exert trigger, but it can't be stopped by your opponent just merely killing it before it can attack.
- Fury's ETB trigger is more abusable with blink / recursion.
- Fury is more flexible with its evoke ability.
Glorybringer definitely has some better qualities like haste / flying / doesn't die to Bolt / etc. But unless your opponent has exactly 0-1 targets for Glorybringer to hit, Fury is generally going to have a higher immediate impact on the board.
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I still like Fury since it interacts favorably with blink, reanimation, Sneak Attack, etc. I'm only running 3 5 mana red creatures so I think I can squeeze it in.
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Their hardcast bodies are not comparible.
4/4 Flying haste >>> 3/3 double strike
Repeatable removal ~= stronger ETB effect
Pyrokinesis is great in red agro against some decks and situations, but it's super bad in others.
Red agro isn't a deck that snowballs off of one threat or overkills , it's a deck that wins by thin margins and requires all it's resources to do so. Unless you can get a minimum 2 for 2 off pyrokinesis , it's bad. A dead/situational card in a deck that needs all it's resources to contribute to it's gameplan is a big fail.
The additional hardcast option makes the card less situational and more powerful, but not enough to compete with thundermaw/glorybringer in Agro.
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