Unmask gets the Shriekmaw treatment. Well not as good in cube as it is in constructed with all its shenanigans (Ephemerate / Vengevine / Ichorid / getting around Force of Negation / Thorn of Amethyst / etc), this is still a solid cube card in its own right. The disruption is strong in Vintage cubes with strong combos, and this is good with blink effects in lower powered cubes.
I think the best comparison for this card is Thought-Knot seer. Having played that card for a while, along with a colourless package, that card was solid when you could cast it, which bodes well for this card. The evoke cost is pretty harsh in cube, though sometimes it'll be worth it. There's probably a spot somewhere for it in my cube.
If you're support midrange reanimator this seems like a huge huge huge boon for that archtype. Recurring Nightmare/Survival decks are going to love this thing.
Really depends on what sort of archetypes you support but I think the power level is there if you have ways to abuse it. We support Flicker pretty heavily so definitely going to give this a shot.
I think where this card really shines is proactively protecting combos, and that's just not as important in cube as it is in constructed.
That being said, I'm not in love with all my black 4's, so I'll test this if I open one, although since I expect it to be a $30+ card, I probably won't go out of my way to get one.
What I really want is to know if the R one is gonna be burn that can go to face or if it's gonna be terrible like Force of Rage lol.
I think where this card really shines is proactively protecting combos, and that's just not as important in cube as it is in constructed.
That being said, I'm not in love with all my black 4's, so I'll test this if I open one, although since I expect it to be a $30+ card, I probably won't go out of my way to get one.
What I really want is to know if the R one is gonna be burn that can go to face or if it's gonna be terrible like Force of Rage lol.
Didn't even think about this as a cycle. I saw they spoiled Force of Negation so getting some other cards in a "cycle" would be awesome.
I am unnaturally excited about this card. There is no way it will be as good as I think but the possibility of a turn 1 "free" Thoughtseize then reanimating it to discard a second card and rip their hand apart is too juicy to pass up.
Also, Mimic Vat/Recurring Nightmare are things.
I have dreams of putting it under the Vat and using it on my opponent's draw step.
I've always been tepid towards Thought-Knot Seer as the WCS is constantly in the forefront of my mind. Grief doesn't have that huge drawback when it hits air, but you're still going to feel pretty bad playing a 3/2 menace for 4 mana. Evoke makes it super interesting, but right now my gut feeling is that it won't be advantageous to do so in very many cases. It's a card I'm going to need to test for sure, and I'm quite content to swap out Nekrataal in order to do so.
In an unpowered cube I think its solid but probably a close miss for me. The Evoke mode isn't as useful when you aren't stripping fast mana or protecting/stopping combos. If MH2 has more cards that synergize I might end up running it (black's limited themes are reanimnator and sacrifice so finger's crossed). Would give me a reason to add Ephemerate too.
I don't think the evoke on this card is all that good, but the baseline as a 4 drop seems pretty solid, and the upside of having the evoke available in very specific situations will surely be great. You can't target yourself with the discard which is super rough for reanimateor decks, but you can still play this in combo decks and it should be serviceable as aggro and midrange top end too. Hopefully the body isn't too anemic to play this in Dimir control, but that would honestly just be gravy. Excited to see the whole cycle of these free evoke guys, and can't wait to double dip on them with some Restoration Angel shenanigans (or Mimic Vat/Flesh Carver/etc for people who play that type of stuff)
Amazing option for cubes that go deep on the blink archetype, but broadly speaking I think this is on the outside looking in for my 450 unpowered list. I'll be watching this card since I think this could outperform my expectations.
Could someone explain the appeal of this card? I just feels too inefficient for the discard + evoke halves and the flicker scenario feels like magical dreamland.
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Could someone explain the appeal of this card? I just feels too inefficient for the discard + evoke halves and the flicker scenario feels like magical dreamland.
Thought-Knot Seer is a legitimately good cube card whenever you're able to cast it. I don't have to bend my cube over backwards in order to consistently cast Grief, it doesn't let your opponent draw a card like Thought-Knot Seer, and it has an alternate casting cost with its Evoke ability.
Could someone explain the appeal of this card? I just feels too inefficient for the discard + evoke halves and the flicker scenario feels like magical dreamland.
Thoughtseize effects are very good in cube. There's often a big disparity in power between cards in a hand and there are many decks that lack redundancy (IE all ramp decks, most control decks and all combo decks).
A slightly mana inefficient value creature OR an extremly mana efficient but bad value spell are very complimentary options. Both modes are sometimes very powerful, but they are good in different scenarios.
The more high powered an environment is the better the free discard is, the less high powered an evnvironment, the better the value creature is.
It's probably best in reanimator. It clears the way for ultra fast reanimation, and can also be reanimated itself after being evoked. If you are reanimating something super powerful, who cares if it cost you an extra card to ensure that it happens?
Removing the opponents answer/clone to the creature is game breaking and easily worth a 2 for 1.
Dumbest question in the thread, but. Is there any world where cutting one of the one drop discard spells for this is the right choice?
I’m running despise duress and thought seize as one cost discard at 360.
It's not a dumb question, but I don't think I'd look to Duress/'Seize/Inquisition as cuts for it. The pitch discard is a nice option to have access to, but I would evaluate this as a value creature first and an Unmask variant second. I'd try and find a creature cut if possible.
Could someone explain the appeal of this card? I just feels too inefficient for the discard + evoke halves and the flicker scenario feels like magical dreamland.
Thoughtseize effects are very good in cube. There's often a big disparity in power between cards in a hand and there are many decks that lack redundancy (IE all ramp decks, most control decks and all combo decks).
A slightly mana inefficient value creature OR an extremly mana efficient but bad value spell are very complimentary options. Both modes are sometimes very powerful, but they are good in different scenarios.
The more high powered an environment is the better the free discard is, the less high powered an evnvironment, the better the value creature is.
It's probably best in reanimator. It clears the way for ultra fast reanimation, and can also be reanimated itself after being evoked. If you are reanimating something super powerful, who cares if it cost you an extra card to ensure that it happens?
Removing the opponents answer/clone to the creature is game breaking and easily worth a 2 for 1.
Thanks for a very detailed response.
This kinda reminds of playing blue decks in legacy - You're not that upset about being on the draw as Force of Will is a card that rewards you for being on the draw.
I could see this scenario - On the play, you prob want to hard cast him because you're down a card and need the 2 for 1 and you're opponent isn't as developed as you are. On the draw, you prob want the evoke because you're down tempo and have an extra card. The more I think about this, the more I think having both stapled onto one card makes this incredibly versatile.
Could someone explain the appeal of this card? I just feels too inefficient for the discard + evoke halves and the flicker scenario feels like magical dreamland.
Thought-Knot Seer is a legitimately good cube card whenever you're able to cast it. I don't have to bend my cube over backwards in order to consistently cast Grief, it doesn't let your opponent draw a card like Thought-Knot Seer, and it has an alternate casting cost with its Evoke ability.
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I really don't like the comparison to TKS. TKS is primarily played in decks with consistent mana acceleration - Temple, Eye, birds (Bant Eldrazi) etc. but also happen to lack interaction against combo/ control decks.
TKS has been borderline unplayable during standard because the format lacked acceleration and it wasn't very strong as a 4 drop. This is why I wasn't super onboard with this card.
Dumbest question in the thread, but. Is there any world where cutting one of the one drop discard spells for this is the right choice?
I’m running despise duress and thought seize as one cost discard at 360.
Doom Blade variants. I'm more comfortable cutting 1 Doom Blade Variant with a potential card like this to help aggressive black decks push damage (by removing a fatty cheat/ 4-5 drop).
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Dumbest question in the thread, but. Is there any world where cutting one of the one drop discard spells for this is the right choice?
I’m running despise duress and thought seize as one cost discard at 360.
Not a dumb question!
Think theres a big drop off in power after duress, thoughtseize and inquisition of kozilek, so cutting despise is reasonable.
I think every black based deck I've ever played has main decked these cards 100%.
If you look at modern/legacy black decks they all play between 6-8 main deck which would translate to 4-6 in a 40 card deck.
We aren't close to discard saturation in cube! If anything I could see limiting their number because they are so good against combo decks, not because the diminishing return has added up.
Dumbest question in the thread, but. Is there any world where cutting one of the one drop discard spells for this is the right choice?
I’m running despise duress and thought seize as one cost discard at 360.
Not a dumb question!
Think theres a big drop off in power after duress, thoughtseize and inquisition of kozilek, so cutting despise is reasonable.
I think every black based deck I've ever played has main decked these cards 100%.
If you look at modern/legacy black decks they all play between 6-8 main deck which would translate to 4-6 in a 40 card deck.
We aren't close to discard saturation in cube! If anything I could see limiting their number because they are so good against combo decks, not because the diminishing return has added up.
We ran Despise for a while and it was only fine. Rarely played as good as I hoped.
If you don't cut it for this then you should cut it for Inquisition of Kozilek. That card plays way better than it looks.
On topic: Grief may be the card that most excites me from this set.
If you were playing unmask still, this seems like a viable replacement for it since you can recur it. I'm just fine on this card, but like others have said, black's 4 drops are only ok-good, so this could slot is easily for one of those depending on the archetypes you support.
Am I crazy in thinking that at the 4 mana mode the new Tourach is just better than this guy? Very different effects of course (and the extra black pip can be brutal), but what do we all think is more powerful on turn 4+ - thoughtseize or hymn?
Unmask gets the Shriekmaw treatment. Well not as good in cube as it is in constructed with all its shenanigans (Ephemerate / Vengevine / Ichorid / getting around Force of Negation / Thorn of Amethyst / etc), this is still a solid cube card in its own right. The disruption is strong in Vintage cubes with strong combos, and this is good with blink effects in lower powered cubes.
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Really depends on what sort of archetypes you support but I think the power level is there if you have ways to abuse it. We support Flicker pretty heavily so definitely going to give this a shot.
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That being said, I'm not in love with all my black 4's, so I'll test this if I open one, although since I expect it to be a $30+ card, I probably won't go out of my way to get one.
What I really want is to know if the R one is gonna be burn that can go to face or if it's gonna be terrible like Force of Rage lol.
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Didn't even think about this as a cycle. I saw they spoiled Force of Negation so getting some other cards in a "cycle" would be awesome.
I am unnaturally excited about this card. There is no way it will be as good as I think but the possibility of a turn 1 "free" Thoughtseize then reanimating it to discard a second card and rip their hand apart is too juicy to pass up.
Also, Mimic Vat/Recurring Nightmare are things.
I have dreams of putting it under the Vat and using it on my opponent's draw step.
Definitely testing this in my 540.
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It looks like it has potential...
Agreed that’s it’s Less good in cube than constructed but it’s still insane.
360 Staple
edit: "broken" was hyperbole, this isn't oko, snapcaster etc. But I believe it's a very good cube card. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a 360 staple.
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2. Improving Green Archetypes
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Thought-Knot Seer is a legitimately good cube card whenever you're able to cast it. I don't have to bend my cube over backwards in order to consistently cast Grief, it doesn't let your opponent draw a card like Thought-Knot Seer, and it has an alternate casting cost with its Evoke ability.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Thoughtseize effects are very good in cube. There's often a big disparity in power between cards in a hand and there are many decks that lack redundancy (IE all ramp decks, most control decks and all combo decks).
A slightly mana inefficient value creature OR an extremly mana efficient but bad value spell are very complimentary options. Both modes are sometimes very powerful, but they are good in different scenarios.
The more high powered an environment is the better the free discard is, the less high powered an evnvironment, the better the value creature is.
It's probably best in reanimator. It clears the way for ultra fast reanimation, and can also be reanimated itself after being evoked. If you are reanimating something super powerful, who cares if it cost you an extra card to ensure that it happens?
Removing the opponents answer/clone to the creature is game breaking and easily worth a 2 for 1.
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I’m running despise duress and thought seize as one cost discard at 360.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
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Thanks for a very detailed response.
This kinda reminds of playing blue decks in legacy - You're not that upset about being on the draw as Force of Will is a card that rewards you for being on the draw.
I could see this scenario - On the play, you prob want to hard cast him because you're down a card and need the 2 for 1 and you're opponent isn't as developed as you are. On the draw, you prob want the evoke because you're down tempo and have an extra card. The more I think about this, the more I think having both stapled onto one card makes this incredibly versatile.
\
I really don't like the comparison to TKS. TKS is primarily played in decks with consistent mana acceleration - Temple, Eye, birds (Bant Eldrazi) etc. but also happen to lack interaction against combo/ control decks.
TKS has been borderline unplayable during standard because the format lacked acceleration and it wasn't very strong as a 4 drop. This is why I wasn't super onboard with this card.
Doom Blade variants. I'm more comfortable cutting 1 Doom Blade Variant with a potential card like this to help aggressive black decks push damage (by removing a fatty cheat/ 4-5 drop).
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Not a dumb question!
Think theres a big drop off in power after duress, thoughtseize and inquisition of kozilek, so cutting despise is reasonable.
I think every black based deck I've ever played has main decked these cards 100%.
If you look at modern/legacy black decks they all play between 6-8 main deck which would translate to 4-6 in a 40 card deck.
We aren't close to discard saturation in cube! If anything I could see limiting their number because they are so good against combo decks, not because the diminishing return has added up.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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We ran Despise for a while and it was only fine. Rarely played as good as I hoped.
If you don't cut it for this then you should cut it for Inquisition of Kozilek. That card plays way better than it looks.
On topic: Grief may be the card that most excites me from this set.
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