We all know the drill on snow nowadays: it offers some extremely efficient cards at the cost of playing all snow basics. There hasn't been much reason to talk about it here, but we just got the snow god, so I figured the time had come.
First off, ten fetchable taplands!
You're sacrificing some power to add the snow supertype compared to other fetchable lands, so it's not for everyone. But fetchability is something that has never before been available below rare, and these are super-budget cards. Their existence is a wonderful thing.
Best Payoff:
Jorn is not actually bonkers with snow basics, but he is decent. Like Sword of Feast and Famine, he gives you your mana during your first main phase, then again in the second. And a Centaur Courser with pseudo-vigilance isn't a terrible rate. The BU side is basically Crucible of Worlds for basics. The more snow you play, the better it gets, obviously. It's not a bad card, but the whole package is kinda awkward. What slot do you even play it in?
This is a super powerful card. Note that non-snow lands can still pay for generic costs. 4/4 is an okay rate, and the card is overall decent. But what kills it for mainstream cubes is that the guy has to be alive for you to cast the creatures from exile. If not for that, this would be amazing, and it's still not bad.
Good-Fortune Unicorn in mono green. You might miss the buff due to tapping with non-snow nonbasics every once in a while, but it's pretty reliable. But it doesn't enable the persist combo, since they only get the counter when you cast the spell.
This card is good! Prey upon is already good enough for weaker cubes, so a strictly better version is worthwhile.
Not quite there:
It's some jank, but it's some fun jank that makes snow mana, and isn't strictly terrible.
Four mana is just a touch too expensive. But this is a powerful ability.
This is a pretty good card, but triple snow is hard to make even with snow basics. Changeling is fun though.
I was hoping for more pushed snow cards, I am relatively close to changing my basics to snow basics and adding On Thin Ice and Icehide Golem (which are probably the two best snow cards currently). Maybe the new God is worth it, as a bad Rofellos/Crucible MDFC.
I've been more frustrated than impressed with snow this set so far. Didn't do much to make it 1. interesting or 2. not just objectively better than basic lands. Feels like they were brought back based on expectation/hype without new solutions or gameplay patterns.
I'm sure there'll be good ones by the time the sets fully out, but I'm not so sure they'll excite me.
I've been more frustrated than impressed with snow this set so far. Didn't do much to make it 1. interesting or 2. not just objectively better than basic lands. Feels like they were brought back based on expectation/hype without new solutions or gameplay patterns.
I kind of hate snow as a mechanic (0 interesting choices - either you have snow cards in your deck, so you make all your lands snow, or you don't, and you don't, because in order for it to work for cube you HAVE to just let people take snow basics as clogging up actual card slots with snow lands sounds awful), and nothing about this set is changing my mind. Easy passes for me all around.
I don’t really feel that a standard set can realistically fit the sort (and amount) of anti-snow cards needed for the decision of “snow or no snow” to actually hold any sort of weight.
I mean yes, wizards can put in a single (likely white or colorless) anti-snow pressure valve a la Rest In Peace or Stony Silence so the meta game can adapt if everyone in standard starts going snow... and I feel that’s what they’re doing.
For a cube, however, we would need to see at least a dozen high-quality cards that happened to include incidental snow hate (imagine an elite vanguard variant with protection from snow and first strike or adding snow-covered land walk to that battle mammoth mythic)... and putting out a set where all of the best creatures and answers just happen to invalidate snow while returning snow for its first big showing in a while would anger a ton of people.
Personally, I feel that “good” snow cube would involve a couple more cards like extraplanar lens that reward you for not using the exact same basics as your opponent (meaning that even players with zero snow cards may want to consider snow)... though that has quite a few problems as well.
While you aren’t outlawed for hating the lack of snow hate in this set (obviously), it feels kind of like hating dogs for not being able to fly (IMO)
I've never liked doing snow in cubes and honestly think it just looks quite messy design wise. Snow cards are designed to be in limited environments where you are supposed to need to draft the snow lands, and it really shows. It's a "critical mass" kind of design. I think it worked really well in Modern Horizons for example, which I personally found to be a great limited format. When people play things like Ice-Fang Coatl in cube it's basically like you replace every instance of "Snow" on the card with "Basic". Feels like using custom cards to me.
If I wanted to build a snow theme it would probably be in a Desert-style cube where all lands needs to be drafted, where some lands could be normal basics, some non-basics and some snow-basics perhaps.
With that said, I don't think any of these cards are terribly exciting to begin with. Also, calling Boreal Outrider a "mono-green Good-Fortune Unicorn" is a big exaggeration. You briefly mention it not working in persist combo, which is the main reason the unicorn is played, but it also doesn't work with tokens, which is another major downside.
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I've never liked doing snow in cubes and honestly think it just looks quite messy design wise. Snow cards are designed to be in limited environments where you are supposed to need to draft the snow lands, and it really shows. It's a "critical mass" kind of design. I think it worked really well in Modern Horizons for example, which I personally found to be a great limited format. When people play things like Ice-Fang Coatl in cube it's basically like you replace every instance of "Snow" on the card with "Basic". Feels like using custom cards to me.
If I wanted to build a snow theme it would probably be in a Desert-style cube where all lands needs to be drafted, where some lands could be normal basics, some non-basics and some snow-basics perhaps.
With that said, I don't think any of these cards are terribly exciting to begin with. Also, calling Boreal Outrider a "mono-green Good-Fortune Unicorn" is a big exaggeration. You briefly mention it not working in persist combo, which is the main reason the unicorn is played, but it also doesn't work with tokens, which is another major downside.
I don't understand what you mean by "custom"? If I play Snow basics instead of Basics, then that is just the way it is like in any other format. In addition, I really like that cards like Coatl, Dead of Winter, etc. exactly lead players to play more (Snow) Basics.
That idea with the Desert Cube sounds awesome. We were also thinking about that, as one could add Wasted too. With the few cards that generate Snow and Waste mana, it could become interesting.
That being said, the Snow cards spoiled so far are disappointing. But that was ptedictable as they can't make cards like in MH1, because they would break standard. The black 6 mana board wipe sounds like the most promising card but we already have Dead of Winter.
While only playable if snow = basics, this is quite the payoff for having a high basic count.
The tempo swings this can create are absurd. Kill all creatures then return a planeswalker to a creatureless board is a hugeee play.
I don't think it makes it in anything but very large vintage cubes as there are a few too many decks this is weak against, but the power level of the card is certainly there. In a modern cube where battles are mostly fought between planeswalkers and going over the top with big creatures, it seems quite good.
I've been running snow since MH1, but I don't think any of the new cards make it. Snow got a pretty big hit in playability after Zendikar Rising. With MDFC lands, there are fewer basics running around.
I'm looking at Replicating Ring for my artifact cube. It won't be a slam dunk but I'll probably test it out just to see if it works with Proliferate stuff. We'll see.
Definitely a few non-snow cards I want to pick up for both cubes too. These are just the cards I see. (No interest in any of the dual lands.)
Ultimately snow is a mechanic too linear for a cube.
The only thing it has going is snow basics, so when evaluating snow cards, you can approximate by snow=basics. Personally I wint change my basics to snow just for a few cards that can easily be out powered by non snow cards in the next sets.
I am hoping that we can get 1 powerful snow creature to have that chilly frame in cube
We’ve supported snow from the beginning, even when we only had one snow card in the Cube. Faceless Haven is interesting to us as a mono red and mono white aggro support land. The 1/3 for 1U that animates snow lands seems solid.
Ultimately snow is a mechanic too linear for a cube.
The only thing it has going is snow basics, so when evaluating snow cards, you can approximate by snow=basics. Personally I wint change my basics to snow just for a few cards that can easily be out powered by non snow cards in the next sets.
Not looking to argue that at all but I would argue that you can run 'good' Snow cards without 'going snow' in your cube. That's what I have attempted to do (it required a rules change/house rule) but it hasn't really caused any problems or linearity. Some of them are just generically good cards.
Reidaneis another one I will probably test out. Overlooked her in my post above. Thanks for reminding me!
I don't think these cards are really all that good for most Cubes. As always, I welcome strong themes for lower powered Cubes that can be more interesting than your average Cube, but otherwise I think that is all these cards offer so far... unfortunately.
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Snow is not really a real theme, you just decide that you run Snow basics and you can then play these cards with maximal upside.
That being said, if you like particular cards that are snow-related, just errata your basics to snow. I went snow just for four cards because these fit well into my cube. In Kaldheim, there are a few that are also playable and I will include them.
I don't really understand this bad sentiment towards snow and whether or not to "support" it. It is trivial to support and there is a small payoff to it. It is just about whether you like it or not, because there is not question to snow offering very powerful tools.
There are a lot of snow matter cards that you can center a theme around for lower powered cubes to build an archetype around... to say otherwise, kind of suggests you are a cube owner not particularly a cube designer.
As for just changing your basics to snow basics, I don't have an issue with that. But even then, these cards don't cut the mustard for most average Cubes.
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What do you guys think of Reidane in a snow cube? She seems great to me. Slows down your opponent and delays Wraths.
I think this is the best snow card spoiled so far by a lot (assuming you require snow basics = basics in your cube).
I created a custom module for my cube early last year that had a GW 3/3 with non-creature spells opponent cost 2 more with cmc 4 or greater.
Identical ability.
It was a really powerful tax and super annoying for ramp/combo opponents to deal with.
I wouldn't play Reidane if I supported snow by making all basics snow, because it would give players some feel-bad moments if it hosed them, having been forced to take snow basics if if they didn't benefit their deck at all. If players had the choice of snow basics, then sure.
There are a lot of snow matter cards that you can center a theme around for lower powered cubes to build an archetype around... to say otherwise, kind of suggests you are a cube owner not particularly a cube designer.
As for just changing your basics to snow basics, I don't have an issue with that. But even then, these cards don't cut the mustard for most average Cubes.
I don't know what you are meaning by the difference between cube owner and designer. I assume that everyone who has a cube, does modifications on their own which makes every cube owner a designer. I highly doubt that people copy a cube online and leave it like that forever.
The snow matters theme only works for low-low power, you are right. This is the reason why it is not interesting for standard nonpower vintage cube, which is still the most popular cube. Of course, you can also include Snowbasics in your draft picks, but that is obviously no option for standard nonpower vintage cube. In addition, some Snow cards are way to powerful for midpower cube, like Icefang Coatl, Astrolabe, Dead of Winter, Skred, etc. even Blood on the Snow (of course unless you don't play Snowbasics instead of basics).
It is pretty clear that you just play Snow basics if you want to play Snow cards in vintage cube and that you will have to do something more elaborate if you want a real snow theme which would imply drafting Snowlands because it is pointless otherwise.
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You're sacrificing some power to add the snow supertype compared to other fetchable lands, so it's not for everyone. But fetchability is something that has never before been available below rare, and these are super-budget cards. Their existence is a wonderful thing.
Jorn is not actually bonkers with snow basics, but he is decent. Like Sword of Feast and Famine, he gives you your mana during your first main phase, then again in the second. And a Centaur Courser with pseudo-vigilance isn't a terrible rate. The BU side is basically Crucible of Worlds for basics. The more snow you play, the better it gets, obviously. It's not a bad card, but the whole package is kinda awkward. What slot do you even play it in?
This is a super powerful card. Note that non-snow lands can still pay for generic costs. 4/4 is an okay rate, and the card is overall decent. But what kills it for mainstream cubes is that the guy has to be alive for you to cast the creatures from exile. If not for that, this would be amazing, and it's still not bad.
Good-Fortune Unicorn in mono green. You might miss the buff due to tapping with non-snow nonbasics every once in a while, but it's pretty reliable. But it doesn't enable the persist combo, since they only get the counter when you cast the spell.
This card is good! Prey upon is already good enough for weaker cubes, so a strictly better version is worthwhile.
It's some jank, but it's some fun jank that makes snow mana, and isn't strictly terrible.
Four mana is just a touch too expensive. But this is a powerful ability.
This is a pretty good card, but triple snow is hard to make even with snow basics. Changeling is fun though.
You gotta be pretty deep in the snow for this.
Random nonsense:
A Bad lightning bolt, a bad Rime Tender, a better Dungeon Shade, and a random beater.
There's also a Fertile Ground for 2g. Definitely not worth it.
It has the marker on it, but doesn't care about snow at all. Pretty good card, and has a thread.
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I'm sure there'll be good ones by the time the sets fully out, but I'm not so sure they'll excite me.
but the duals are a big plus for cubes looking to run it.
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I mean yes, wizards can put in a single (likely white or colorless) anti-snow pressure valve a la Rest In Peace or Stony Silence so the meta game can adapt if everyone in standard starts going snow... and I feel that’s what they’re doing.
For a cube, however, we would need to see at least a dozen high-quality cards that happened to include incidental snow hate (imagine an elite vanguard variant with protection from snow and first strike or adding snow-covered land walk to that battle mammoth mythic)... and putting out a set where all of the best creatures and answers just happen to invalidate snow while returning snow for its first big showing in a while would anger a ton of people.
Personally, I feel that “good” snow cube would involve a couple more cards like extraplanar lens that reward you for not using the exact same basics as your opponent (meaning that even players with zero snow cards may want to consider snow)... though that has quite a few problems as well.
While you aren’t outlawed for hating the lack of snow hate in this set (obviously), it feels kind of like hating dogs for not being able to fly (IMO)
If I wanted to build a snow theme it would probably be in a Desert-style cube where all lands needs to be drafted, where some lands could be normal basics, some non-basics and some snow-basics perhaps.
With that said, I don't think any of these cards are terribly exciting to begin with. Also, calling Boreal Outrider a "mono-green Good-Fortune Unicorn" is a big exaggeration. You briefly mention it not working in persist combo, which is the main reason the unicorn is played, but it also doesn't work with tokens, which is another major downside.
I don't understand what you mean by "custom"? If I play Snow basics instead of Basics, then that is just the way it is like in any other format. In addition, I really like that cards like Coatl, Dead of Winter, etc. exactly lead players to play more (Snow) Basics.
That idea with the Desert Cube sounds awesome. We were also thinking about that, as one could add Wasted too. With the few cards that generate Snow and Waste mana, it could become interesting.
That being said, the Snow cards spoiled so far are disappointing. But that was ptedictable as they can't make cards like in MH1, because they would break standard. The black 6 mana board wipe sounds like the most promising card but we already have Dead of Winter.
For people doing snow this seems like a decent include.
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While only playable if snow = basics, this is quite the payoff for having a high basic count.
The tempo swings this can create are absurd. Kill all creatures then return a planeswalker to a creatureless board is a hugeee play.
I don't think it makes it in anything but very large vintage cubes as there are a few too many decks this is weak against, but the power level of the card is certainly there. In a modern cube where battles are mostly fought between planeswalkers and going over the top with big creatures, it seems quite good.
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Slam-Dunks
Ascendant Spirit
Boreal Outrider
Avalanche Caller
Probably will test but unsure if they stay in longterm..
Draugr Necromancer
Faceless Haven
Blood on the Snow (This could be a slam-dunk staple but I have my doubts.)
I'm looking at Replicating Ring for my artifact cube. It won't be a slam dunk but I'll probably test it out just to see if it works with Proliferate stuff. We'll see.
Definitely a few non-snow cards I want to pick up for both cubes too. These are just the cards I see. (No interest in any of the dual lands.)
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The only thing it has going is snow basics, so when evaluating snow cards, you can approximate by snow=basics. Personally I wint change my basics to snow just for a few cards that can easily be out powered by non snow cards in the next sets.
I am hoping that we can get 1 powerful snow creature to have that chilly frame in cube
Not looking to argue that at all but I would argue that you can run 'good' Snow cards without 'going snow' in your cube. That's what I have attempted to do (it required a rules change/house rule) but it hasn't really caused any problems or linearity. Some of them are just generically good cards.
Reidane is another one I will probably test out. Overlooked her in my post above. Thanks for reminding me!
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That being said, if you like particular cards that are snow-related, just errata your basics to snow. I went snow just for four cards because these fit well into my cube. In Kaldheim, there are a few that are also playable and I will include them.
I don't really understand this bad sentiment towards snow and whether or not to "support" it. It is trivial to support and there is a small payoff to it. It is just about whether you like it or not, because there is not question to snow offering very powerful tools.
As for just changing your basics to snow basics, I don't have an issue with that. But even then, these cards don't cut the mustard for most average Cubes.
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I think this is the best snow card spoiled so far by a lot (assuming you require snow basics = basics in your cube).
I created a custom module for my cube early last year that had a GW 3/3 with non-creature spells opponent cost 2 more with cmc 4 or greater.
Identical ability.
It was a really powerful tax and super annoying for ramp/combo opponents to deal with.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I don't know what you are meaning by the difference between cube owner and designer. I assume that everyone who has a cube, does modifications on their own which makes every cube owner a designer. I highly doubt that people copy a cube online and leave it like that forever.
The snow matters theme only works for low-low power, you are right. This is the reason why it is not interesting for standard nonpower vintage cube, which is still the most popular cube. Of course, you can also include Snowbasics in your draft picks, but that is obviously no option for standard nonpower vintage cube. In addition, some Snow cards are way to powerful for midpower cube, like Icefang Coatl, Astrolabe, Dead of Winter, Skred, etc. even Blood on the Snow (of course unless you don't play Snowbasics instead of basics).
It is pretty clear that you just play Snow basics if you want to play Snow cards in vintage cube and that you will have to do something more elaborate if you want a real snow theme which would imply drafting Snowlands because it is pointless otherwise.