I agree that there will likely be a few times where it will be confusing. I'm just not super worried about it. I wish you and your group the best of luck with new player MDFC interactions!
I think we'll get used to them pretty quick. I'll explain it to my drafters like this:
1. You can play them as a land any time you could play a land (from any zone).
2. They're never "land cards" in any zone other than the battlefield.
...Once you follow those two rules, I think they're relatively intuitive and easy to understand. I'm not concerned with it.
I like this explanation. When I describe this to my group (if I need to) I’ll use this and just add emphasis on the word „play“ from point 1, making sure to contrast it with the word „put“. Should be simple enough.
@LeyShade: very insightful, thanks. I think this is a good way of looking at these ETBT MDFCs when considering whether to include them or not.
Edit: holy *****, 56 posts in 14 years? You should definitely open your mouth more often!
My account got lost in the great Twitchgeddon. My prior post count was much higher. Though I generally keep stump outside this forum section because I seem to upset people a lot and would prefer to avoid confrontation.
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To me this card is the real teat. A powerful card for a reasonable mana cost, that is situational bad/excellent. But I like it more than the combat trick ones because you get to sculpt a plan with it. They effect is also usually better late, when you dont need land. So if excellent i may try more flip catds
To me this card is the real teat. A powerful card for a reasonable mana cost, that is situational bad/excellent. But I like it more than the combat trick ones because you get to sculpt a plan with it. They effect is also usually better late, when you dont need land. So if excellent i may try more flip catds
Personally I don't think the upside of the land in the early game is much of an "upside" since etb tapped is so horrible.
To me this card is the real teat. A powerful card for a reasonable mana cost, that is situational bad/excellent. But I like it more than the combat trick ones because you get to sculpt a plan with it. They effect is also usually better late, when you dont need land. So if excellent i may try more flip catds
Personally I don't think the upside of the land in the early game is much of an "upside" since etb tapped is so horrible.
You know what is also absolutely horrible? Every single mode on Izzet Charm. In fact, I would rather have an extra colored tapland in my deck over UR: any single mode of Izzet charm. Zero of those individual modes would make a 2000 sized cube. However, the card is fantastic and a lower-sized-izzet-section-staple because it provide full coverage: a set of options such that one is always useful. I view MDFCs in a very similar light.
I don't think that is a strong argument for running marginal cards, or cards below a power threshold. The versaility in being a spell or a land is only worth as much as side A or B relative to a power threshold. You related it to cards like Preordain and Ponder earlier, which seems kind of silly. It isn't even remotely the same statistical leverage. Preordain gives you card selection as it pertains to cards that are otherwise centered around a similar power threshold... a lot of these MDFC, are at best along the power threshold but most often below it.
Sure, there is a statistical advantage of having a single card be either a spell or a land - but the spell side and the land side are both substandard for most of the context used for card evaluation in these open discussions.
As it pertains to this card, I think clone effects are valuable, but most of the time that is because they can target creatures your opponent have. Perhaps the land side is enough to offset that drawback, but I do not personally feel any draw to that kind of limitation at the cost of something like Clever Impersonator which has stronger versatility overall.
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To me this card is the real teat. A powerful card for a reasonable mana cost, that is situational bad/excellent. But I like it more than the combat trick ones because you get to sculpt a plan with it. They effect is also usually better late, when you dont need land. So if excellent i may try more flip catds
Personally I don't think the upside of the land in the early game is much of an "upside" since etb tapped is so horrible.
You know what is also absolutely horrible? Every single mode on Izzet Charm. In fact, I would rather have an extra colored tapland in my deck over UR: any single mode of Izzet charm. Zero of those individual modes would make a 2000 sized cube. However, the card is fantastic and a lower-sized-izzet-section-staple because it provide full coverage: a set of options such that one is always useful. I view MDFCs in a very similar light.
The modes on Izzet charm are individually subpar because they are each situational. So there is an additive effect having a number of them available on one card. A etb mono-colored tapped land is horrible because it is horrible.
And this is exactly why I believe this card is the bar. The mythics are cool because they can be uptapped but most are so expensive they will impact very few cube games.
This card represents the class down from the mythic. The spell has a decently powerful effect, but the situational nature of it is why it is not played. The better flip cards are later game cards when you know you don't want the land, and this is cheap which is good when you aren't using the land side.
But even if it impresses I doubt it is a long term inclusion because Phyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image are the only clones I play
At the very least, I think we can agree all these modal type lands are very far behind something like Shelldock Isle, where you can have your cake and eat it too (get the land immediately and cast something for free pretty easily in a proper cube deck)
At the very least, I think we can agree all these modal type lands are very far behind something like Shelldock Isle, where you can have your cake and eat it too (get the land immediately and cast something for free pretty easily in a proper cube deck)
I wouldn't speak for everyone if I were you because I think Shelldock Isle is medicore at best and is super overrated and know a good amount of others who share similar thoughts. While I MDFC cards are narrower than I'd like them to be, I prefer most of them over Shelldock Isle since it they give you more options.
At the very least, I think we can agree all these modal type lands are very far behind something like Shelldock Isle, where you can have your cake and eat it too (get the land immediately and cast something for free pretty easily in a proper cube deck)
I wouldn't speak for everyone if I were you because I think Shelldock Isle is medicore at best and is super overrated and know a good amount of others who share similar thoughts. While I MDFC cards are narrower than I'd like them to be, I prefer most of them over Shelldock Isle since it they give you more options.
I think his larger point is that logically Shelldock Isle does what these cards do -- be a cipt land and also have a lategame "spell" -- except you get BOTH effects. The logic doesn't hinge on the precise strength of Shelldock vs any particular mdfc. I'm struggling to understand how they give you more options since you are literally forced to pick only one.
I wouldn't speak for everyone if I were you because I think Shelldock Isle is medicore at best and is super overrated and know a good amount of others who share similar thoughts.
That was along the lines of what I said before I changed my reply to "Nevermind, not worth it, lol".
I'm struggling to understand how they give you more options since you are literally forced to pick only one.
Shelldock Isle literally only has a single mode. Sure, the land mode does two things, but you can only ever play it as a land and you can't use its ability until next turn, assuming the 20 card library condition is met. MDFC spells aren't pigeonholed into being played solely as lands, and their spell half take effect immediately.
Also, MDFCs typically have much more synergies than regular non-basic lands since there are far more creature / spell synergies in cube than there are land synergies.
I was able to grab a much needed land with Imperial Recruiter thanks to Glasspool Mimic being a 0/0 creature in one of my games testing with it already. I mean, it didn't feel amazing, but I was able to make my land drop for the turn. There's TONS of these kinds of little interactions floating around, and it'll take us a long time to discover them all.
I don’t think the power level of these is something that makes searching for a land by caveat, impressive. Cute, but not impressive.
I fully expect people to recant their praise for these cards to some extent, but if instead they double down - then good on them I guess.
These are all, a pretty easy pass for me. None of them have enough power for me to consider the marginal gains as anything more than slight deck building boons that offer virtually no statistical leverage.
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I don’t think the power level of these is something that makes searching for a land by caveat, impressive. Cute, but not impressive.
I fully expect people to recant their praise for these cards to some extent, but if instead they double down - then good on them I guess.
These are all, a pretty easy pass for me. None of them have enough power for me to consider the marginal gains as anything more than slight deck building boons that offer virtually no statistical leverage.
With all due respect, not only do I completely disagree, but it sounds like you just stuck a bunch of words together in an attempt to make your reasoning sound more solid. I know contextually what you're trying to say, but I guarantee you those words don't mean what you think they mean in that particular order lol
In response to what I think you're trying to say, modal tap-lands with "discard from hand" abilities have been printed before and seen constructed play, so I'm not exactly sure what you're going on about. On the even more extreme end, I remember Recollect saw standard play back in Kamigawa, meanwhile we just got a version that can be played as a tapped forest in the early game which is clearly a huge spike in powerlevel. Overstatted green 3 drops have seen plenty of standard play (not to mention pioneer play) over the last several years, and they just printed one that can be played as a tap-land, is sometimes a 7/7, and only costs double green. I won't even mention the lands that have win cons strapped on that don't even enter tapped, since I really don't know how anybody could object to those.
These cards are at least decent, and whether or not you (or anybody else for that matter) want to play them or not is solely up to your playgroup, but you don't need to come into these threads and try talking down on other people who just want to test a modal clone effect or grab a land off a Fauna Shaman. jeez
I fully expect people to recant their praise for these cards to some extent, but if instead they double down - then good on them I guess.
Personally I think the opposite will happen where people weren't as accepting to the MDFC cards will open up to them more. Granted, I do think some of the more narrow MDFC cards like Glasspool Mimic will come and go, but I think a good amount of the mythic MDFCs and some of the non-mythics like the elephant are here to stay for a while.
In response to what I think you're trying to say, modal tap-lands with "discard from hand" abilities have been printed before and seen constructed play, so I'm not exactly sure what you're going on about. On the even more extreme end, I remember Recollect saw standard play back in Kamigawa, meanwhile we just got a version that can be played as a tapped forest in the early game which is clearly a huge spike in powerlevel.
1. How many modal taplands with discard abilities see cube play again?
2. Recollect saw standard play in Kamigawa? Here is what I think of that fascinating factoid:
it sounds like you just stuck a bunch of words together in an attempt to make your reasoning sound more solid. I know contextually what you're trying to say, but I guarantee you those words don't mean what you think they mean in that particular order lol
I don’t think the power level of these is something that makes searching for a land by caveat, impressive. Cute, but not impressive.
Correct. The subtle interactions are not in and of themselves the things that make these cards good. They do ad a little bit of additional synergy though, which is always cool to find.
I fully expect people to recant their praise for these cards to some extent, but if instead they double down - then good on them I guess.
Two things here. First, I expect the opposite to happen. Over the coming months, I expect more people to get on board with MDFCs being good and worthy of inclusion than those that are currently offering praise to recant their positions. And I think it'll be by a lot, actually.
Secondly, if folks start doubling down on their positions that support MDFCs ...it could be indicative that they're even better than we thought. If I had to wager an amount of money that mattered to me, I'd guess that there's actually more MDFCs that are worthy of cube inclusion than the community at large thinks, not less.
These are all, a pretty easy pass for me. None of them have enough power for me to consider the marginal gains as anything more than slight deck building boons that offer virtually no statistical leverage.
I think this statement is either A) not what you meant it to say, or B) it's simply false. If you don't think that access to MDFCs will offer a strategic advantage to the player that has access to them, I think that's plain false. If that's not what you meant, I don't know what you're saying ...I have no idea how to deconstruct your statement to have it mean something else. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point? IDK.
Secondly, if folks start doubling down on their positions that support MDFCs ...it could be indicative that they're even better than we thought. If I had to wager an amount of money that mattered to me, I'd guess that there's actually more MDFCs that are worthy of cube inclusion than the community at large thinks, not less.
It could mean that, but I've definitely seen that with respect to card evaluation, and opinions in general, people tend to dig into their positions rather than be swayed to the other side. Both sides will dig in, those that play the lands will keep playing them, those that don't, won't, and since AFAIK no one on opposite sides of the debate in this thread are in the same cube group it won't really matter that much lol.
This makes me even MORE annoyed that WOTC made it basically impossible to access the data from MTGO that people used to be able to get - I'm sure they'll add some of these to the legacy cube, maybe to the vintage cube, and we could have gotten actual numbers for how often they are cast as spells vs lands and the win rate for games where they are cast as spells.
FWIW I am very glad to have these cards as I think modal lands are cool and most just aren't good enough for cube, and I think several of these are. However, I think these will generally be pretty boring cards that will be lands most of the time or a pretty meh effect. They are good cards, but most won't make for cool, fun cube stories.
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I like this explanation. When I describe this to my group (if I need to) I’ll use this and just add emphasis on the word „play“ from point 1, making sure to contrast it with the word „put“. Should be simple enough.
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My account got lost in the great Twitchgeddon. My prior post count was much higher. Though I generally keep stump outside this forum section because I seem to upset people a lot and would prefer to avoid confrontation.
I'm glad I could contribute positively in this discussion though. Thank you for the positive words
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
Personally I don't think the upside of the land in the early game is much of an "upside" since etb tapped is so horrible.
You know what is also absolutely horrible? Every single mode on Izzet Charm. In fact, I would rather have an extra colored tapland in my deck over UR: any single mode of Izzet charm. Zero of those individual modes would make a 2000 sized cube. However, the card is fantastic and a lower-sized-izzet-section-staple because it provide full coverage: a set of options such that one is always useful. I view MDFCs in a very similar light.
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Sure, there is a statistical advantage of having a single card be either a spell or a land - but the spell side and the land side are both substandard for most of the context used for card evaluation in these open discussions.
As it pertains to this card, I think clone effects are valuable, but most of the time that is because they can target creatures your opponent have. Perhaps the land side is enough to offset that drawback, but I do not personally feel any draw to that kind of limitation at the cost of something like Clever Impersonator which has stronger versatility overall.
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The modes on Izzet charm are individually subpar because they are each situational. So there is an additive effect having a number of them available on one card. A etb mono-colored tapped land is horrible because it is horrible.
This card represents the class down from the mythic. The spell has a decently powerful effect, but the situational nature of it is why it is not played. The better flip cards are later game cards when you know you don't want the land, and this is cheap which is good when you aren't using the land side.
But even if it impresses I doubt it is a long term inclusion because Phyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image are the only clones I play
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I wouldn't speak for everyone if I were you because I think Shelldock Isle is medicore at best and is super overrated and know a good amount of others who share similar thoughts. While I MDFC cards are narrower than I'd like them to be, I prefer most of them over Shelldock Isle since it they give you more options.
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I think his larger point is that logically Shelldock Isle does what these cards do -- be a cipt land and also have a lategame "spell" -- except you get BOTH effects. The logic doesn't hinge on the precise strength of Shelldock vs any particular mdfc. I'm struggling to understand how they give you more options since you are literally forced to pick only one.
That was along the lines of what I said before I changed my reply to "Nevermind, not worth it, lol".
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Shelldock Isle literally only has a single mode. Sure, the land mode does two things, but you can only ever play it as a land and you can't use its ability until next turn, assuming the 20 card library condition is met. MDFC spells aren't pigeonholed into being played solely as lands, and their spell half take effect immediately.
Also, MDFCs typically have much more synergies than regular non-basic lands since there are far more creature / spell synergies in cube than there are land synergies.
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I fully expect people to recant their praise for these cards to some extent, but if instead they double down - then good on them I guess.
These are all, a pretty easy pass for me. None of them have enough power for me to consider the marginal gains as anything more than slight deck building boons that offer virtually no statistical leverage.
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With all due respect, not only do I completely disagree, but it sounds like you just stuck a bunch of words together in an attempt to make your reasoning sound more solid. I know contextually what you're trying to say, but I guarantee you those words don't mean what you think they mean in that particular order lol
In response to what I think you're trying to say, modal tap-lands with "discard from hand" abilities have been printed before and seen constructed play, so I'm not exactly sure what you're going on about. On the even more extreme end, I remember Recollect saw standard play back in Kamigawa, meanwhile we just got a version that can be played as a tapped forest in the early game which is clearly a huge spike in powerlevel. Overstatted green 3 drops have seen plenty of standard play (not to mention pioneer play) over the last several years, and they just printed one that can be played as a tap-land, is sometimes a 7/7, and only costs double green. I won't even mention the lands that have win cons strapped on that don't even enter tapped, since I really don't know how anybody could object to those.
These cards are at least decent, and whether or not you (or anybody else for that matter) want to play them or not is solely up to your playgroup, but you don't need to come into these threads and try talking down on other people who just want to test a modal clone effect or grab a land off a Fauna Shaman. jeez
Personally I think the opposite will happen where people weren't as accepting to the MDFC cards will open up to them more. Granted, I do think some of the more narrow MDFC cards like Glasspool Mimic will come and go, but I think a good amount of the mythic MDFCs and some of the non-mythics like the elephant are here to stay for a while.
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1. How many modal taplands with discard abilities see cube play again?
2. Recollect saw standard play in Kamigawa? Here is what I think of that fascinating factoid:
Correct. The subtle interactions are not in and of themselves the things that make these cards good. They do ad a little bit of additional synergy though, which is always cool to find.
Two things here. First, I expect the opposite to happen. Over the coming months, I expect more people to get on board with MDFCs being good and worthy of inclusion than those that are currently offering praise to recant their positions. And I think it'll be by a lot, actually.
Secondly, if folks start doubling down on their positions that support MDFCs ...it could be indicative that they're even better than we thought. If I had to wager an amount of money that mattered to me, I'd guess that there's actually more MDFCs that are worthy of cube inclusion than the community at large thinks, not less.
I think this statement is either A) not what you meant it to say, or B) it's simply false. If you don't think that access to MDFCs will offer a strategic advantage to the player that has access to them, I think that's plain false. If that's not what you meant, I don't know what you're saying ...I have no idea how to deconstruct your statement to have it mean something else. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point? IDK.
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It could mean that, but I've definitely seen that with respect to card evaluation, and opinions in general, people tend to dig into their positions rather than be swayed to the other side. Both sides will dig in, those that play the lands will keep playing them, those that don't, won't, and since AFAIK no one on opposite sides of the debate in this thread are in the same cube group it won't really matter that much lol.
This makes me even MORE annoyed that WOTC made it basically impossible to access the data from MTGO that people used to be able to get - I'm sure they'll add some of these to the legacy cube, maybe to the vintage cube, and we could have gotten actual numbers for how often they are cast as spells vs lands and the win rate for games where they are cast as spells.
FWIW I am very glad to have these cards as I think modal lands are cool and most just aren't good enough for cube, and I think several of these are. However, I think these will generally be pretty boring cards that will be lands most of the time or a pretty meh effect. They are good cards, but most won't make for cool, fun cube stories.
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