In what way does it warp draft or cube construction?
Sorry if I am unable to quite articulate this.
But sometimes I get these cards that do all these sweet things and too many people are looking to draft them that by the time it gets to deck construction, the card isn't maindeckable because the drafter feels like they didn't get enough to do with it, the thing they wanted to do with it.
The smaller the Cube, the more limited the opportunity to use such a card becomes.
I have a 540 Powered Cube that is Modular, so I often draft 360 and was add 1 or 2 90 card modules depending on how many people we have. I have historically had to move a couple cards like this into the 450 or 540 modules because it was the only way the card would become possible to use, regularly, in the way I intended it to be used. The card has so many wide applications that the opportunity for players to collect on any given payoff becomes more rare the smaller the Cube.
I don't know how else to articulate it.
I am not saying the card is bad, by any means.
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Yawgmoth isn’t necessarily a demanding build around, it just wants you to play a good amount of creatures. It’s not like you’re trying to assemble very specific 2 card combos or something.
If he isn't an engine for something, then I don't want him for occasional, semi-random, activations. I would rather run more powerful 4 drops that have more narrow application when compared to Yawg.
If he is supposed to be an engine for something, then I don't want him in 360, I want him in something larger.
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I think you are missing the fact that he can be a key part of multiple different decks to get them rolling, but it's not like you need 2 specific cards for him to be playable. He works with lot's of different cards in different ways.
If he isn't an engine for something, then I don't want him for occasional, semi-random, activations. I would rather run more powerful 4 drops that have more narrow application when compared to Yawg.
If he is supposed to be an engine for something, then I don't want him in 360, I want him in something larger.
Why does he have to be an engine for something? Drawing a card and full-to-partial removal on the same ability just seems like an engine to win games. Do you not cube with token generators?
Why does he have to be an engine for something? Drawing a card and full-to-partial removal on the same ability just seems like an engine to win games. Do you not cube with token generators?
I have 18 cards that produce 1/1's in the entirety of my 540 Cube. Even less in the main 360 card module.
My concern is that in the 360 card module, this card is going to do enough different things that different decks are going to try to draft it. In my experience with my 360 card module, out of all the decks that can push this guy the most, 1 will see play on any given night. Which means the others that would try to draft this, will likely end up leaving it out of their main deck.
At that point, I would want it in the 450 module or the 540 card module. Which I basically stated in my original post on this thread. The card simply does not impress me at 360, I see it getting better in mid-sized cubes because it is more likely to see play at a table where multiple decks are wanting something like this and can get more use out of it with fewer constructive restraints. It isn't about whether I think this card is powerful enough to break into 360...
I think at 360, you can just run better cards that do stronger things in the more narrow situations in which they are good. Either that, or you warp your Cube construction enough to get that kind of benefit at 360 and a multitude of strategies gunning for this kind of thing. I guess the best comparison I can make, is to Storm. A strategy that appeals to a lot of people in my group that I stopped running because pieces were often spread out among the draft group that the deck would never come together as often as I would like. Sure, this is a single card. But I don't like things that taint drafts in such a way.
EDIT
Anyways, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. My opinion on this card is not going to be swayed, because I understand my Cube and I understand my drafters and they are why I would not run this card at 360.
You either understand why I would opt to keep it at 450+ or you don't, and that is fine either way.
Respectfully, I think you may be overthinking things in this case. But I also acknowledge that you dont actually need any reason to keep a card from your cube, so, do you my man.
Respectfully, I think you may be overthinking things in this case. But I also acknowledge that you dont actually need any reason to keep a card from your cube, so, do you my man.
I don't recall ever stating I would keep it from my Cube... respectfully, I don't think you are listening to anything I have said. You are just seeing it as a dissenting view needing a debate.
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I think this card is excellent in a sacrifice archetype, a super fun card overall and am slamming it into my cube.
However, I think people who don't support aristocrats AND run smaller powered cubes will be disappointed if they expect much from him.
He requires considerable setup before he becomes a power house, and if your format has a lot of decks that go way over the top, grindy decks that support him may not be well suited to that format.
In that kind of format I'd want my black agro decks to disrupt the opponents mana base/hand and/or kill fast as possible. Yawgmoth does neither.
IE he'd be stone unplayable in the MTGO vintage cube.
The more creature heavy and slower the format, the better. Against a green or white creature deck, yawgmoth seems utterly absurd.
I think this card is excellent in a sacrifice archetype, a super fun card overall and am slamming it into my cube.
However, I think people who don't support aristocrats AND run smaller powered cubes will be disappointed if they expect much from him.
He requires considerable setup before he becomes a power house, and if your format has a lot of decks that go way over the top, grindy decks that support him may not be well suited to that format.
In that kind of format I'd want my black agro decks to disrupt the opponents mana base/hand and/or kill fast as possible. Yawgmoth does neither.
IE he'd be stone unplayable in the MTGO vintage cube.
The more creature heavy and slower the format, the better. Against a green or white creature deck, yawgmoth seems utterly absurd.
This is more or less where I'm at on Yawgmoth. I don't think he's an autoinclude at all, though I'll be giving him a shot if I can get my hands on one. He does have one of the key advantages to being a good cube card, in my eyes: the decks that want him REALLY want him. But he's going to be very matchup dependent, and I think there are going to be a decent number of times where he feels disappointing.
Cool card, but definitely won’t fit into my cube. Just too slow and resource intensive to get value out of it. To be fair I play 360 powered so most things don’t make the cut, but even at larger sizes is this playable if you don’t run a strong tokens subtheme? Because the proliferate and stat line don’t seem great. Maybe id run this at 540.
The fact that the sacrifice does not cost mana is totally insane... half a Clamp + repeatable removal + body that doesn’t die to Bolts and blocks a huge number of creatures all day... I could see myself taking this card P1P1.
Cool card, but definitely won’t fit into my cube. Just too slow and resource intensive to get value out of it. To be fair I play 360 powered so most things don’t make the cut, but even at larger sizes is this playable if you don’t run a strong tokens subtheme? Because the proliferate and stat line don’t seem great. Maybe id run this at 540.
have any cube managers gotten some playtime with Yawgmoth yet? it looks like an incredibly powerful card in grindy matchups, but in my 400 powered cube i'm not sure it'll cut it. but a free half-skullclamp is hard to say no to (especially with something like ophiomancer!)
This card is so sweet. It does a ton of cool stuff, and I always find myself being able to capitalize on at least one of the utilities he brings to the table.
This card has far exceeded my expectations. It's a mini Skullclamp and Serrated Arrows built on a stick. He's burn proof and the proliferate allows players to ultimate their walkers faster while simultaneously controlling the board. Drawing more creatures just means that he can continue to put more -1/-1 counters on the board, and if you draw a land, he can just proliferate. The random protection from humans clause isn't just flavor text either; it's occasionally relevant since humans is probably the most common creature type in many cubes. Praise Yawgmoth.
Yawgmoth is probably the best aristocrats enabler / payoff out there. He's essentially a free psuedo-Smallclamp that can kill / weaken other things.
In terms of where he stands with other 4-cmc black creatures, I don't think he's above Braids or Chupacabra. Yawgmoth has been a lot more useful than Kalitas. I can see him people rating him above Nekrataal / Skinrender.
Aristocrats has always been in and out of my cube. Yawgmoth by himself has firmly cemented aristocrats, like blink and spells matters, as a sub-theme to tokens / midrange.
Where do people fall on Yawgmoth currently? I'm torn on including it in my cube.
It's a bit of a build around card but in a typical cube I think a card like Rankle, Master of Pranks is much stronger and provides much more consistent value. I think it's probably a 540+ or 450+ card, would not play it at 360
Sorry if I am unable to quite articulate this.
But sometimes I get these cards that do all these sweet things and too many people are looking to draft them that by the time it gets to deck construction, the card isn't maindeckable because the drafter feels like they didn't get enough to do with it, the thing they wanted to do with it.
The smaller the Cube, the more limited the opportunity to use such a card becomes.
I have a 540 Powered Cube that is Modular, so I often draft 360 and was add 1 or 2 90 card modules depending on how many people we have. I have historically had to move a couple cards like this into the 450 or 540 modules because it was the only way the card would become possible to use, regularly, in the way I intended it to be used. The card has so many wide applications that the opportunity for players to collect on any given payoff becomes more rare the smaller the Cube.
I don't know how else to articulate it.
I am not saying the card is bad, by any means.
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If he is supposed to be an engine for something, then I don't want him in 360, I want him in something larger.
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Why does he have to be an engine for something? Drawing a card and full-to-partial removal on the same ability just seems like an engine to win games. Do you not cube with token generators?
I have 18 cards that produce 1/1's in the entirety of my 540 Cube. Even less in the main 360 card module.
My concern is that in the 360 card module, this card is going to do enough different things that different decks are going to try to draft it. In my experience with my 360 card module, out of all the decks that can push this guy the most, 1 will see play on any given night. Which means the others that would try to draft this, will likely end up leaving it out of their main deck.
At that point, I would want it in the 450 module or the 540 card module. Which I basically stated in my original post on this thread. The card simply does not impress me at 360, I see it getting better in mid-sized cubes because it is more likely to see play at a table where multiple decks are wanting something like this and can get more use out of it with fewer constructive restraints. It isn't about whether I think this card is powerful enough to break into 360...
I think at 360, you can just run better cards that do stronger things in the more narrow situations in which they are good. Either that, or you warp your Cube construction enough to get that kind of benefit at 360 and a multitude of strategies gunning for this kind of thing. I guess the best comparison I can make, is to Storm. A strategy that appeals to a lot of people in my group that I stopped running because pieces were often spread out among the draft group that the deck would never come together as often as I would like. Sure, this is a single card. But I don't like things that taint drafts in such a way.
EDIT
Anyways, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. My opinion on this card is not going to be swayed, because I understand my Cube and I understand my drafters and they are why I would not run this card at 360.
You either understand why I would opt to keep it at 450+ or you don't, and that is fine either way.
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I don't recall ever stating I would keep it from my Cube... respectfully, I don't think you are listening to anything I have said. You are just seeing it as a dissenting view needing a debate.
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However, I think people who don't support aristocrats AND run smaller powered cubes will be disappointed if they expect much from him.
He requires considerable setup before he becomes a power house, and if your format has a lot of decks that go way over the top, grindy decks that support him may not be well suited to that format.
In that kind of format I'd want my black agro decks to disrupt the opponents mana base/hand and/or kill fast as possible. Yawgmoth does neither.
IE he'd be stone unplayable in the MTGO vintage cube.
The more creature heavy and slower the format, the better. Against a green or white creature deck, yawgmoth seems utterly absurd.
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This is more or less where I'm at on Yawgmoth. I don't think he's an autoinclude at all, though I'll be giving him a shot if I can get my hands on one. He does have one of the key advantages to being a good cube card, in my eyes: the decks that want him REALLY want him. But he's going to be very matchup dependent, and I think there are going to be a decent number of times where he feels disappointing.
More accurately you run a Storm Cube.
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He’s better than I thought. (Smallish sample).
Best black 4 drop imo
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In terms of where he stands with other 4-cmc black creatures, I don't think he's above Braids or Chupacabra. Yawgmoth has been a lot more useful than Kalitas. I can see him people rating him above Nekrataal / Skinrender.
Aristocrats has always been in and out of my cube. Yawgmoth by himself has firmly cemented aristocrats, like blink and spells matters, as a sub-theme to tokens / midrange.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
It's a bit of a build around card but in a typical cube I think a card like Rankle, Master of Pranks is much stronger and provides much more consistent value. I think it's probably a 540+ or 450+ card, would not play it at 360
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc