I saw this card and expected this thread to be popping champagne bottles. I'm sold that this is the black 5 we've been waiting for, or at least a top contender in the slot.
EDIT: And... AND... it's called "Doom Whisperer". I can't believe this hasn't been brought up. It would be the sickest card name in my black section.
I think this is the black Baneslayer Angel. I expect it to be similarly good and bad. It's a little worse when you are behind because no lifelink, but it makes up for that with the +1/+1 and trample to possibly get more damage through. I love this card and am going to try to find room at 450. If my cube was 540 or above, this would be a shoe-in.
Seems like possible replace for Priest of the Blood Rite, the two life loss per turn is replaced with Surveil 2. I think Surveil repeatedly will prove to be powerful. Being able to see two cards in every time while also filling the graveyard is a solid effect. The biggest drawback is you lose out on a little ETB abuse with Priest. I can see this card being worth a shot to test
Seems like possible replace for Priest of the Blood Rite, the two life loss per turn is replaced with Surveil 2. I think Surveil repeatedly will prove to be powerful. Being able to see two cards in every time while also filling the graveyard is a solid effect. The biggest drawback is you lose out on a little ETB abuse with Priest. I can see this card being worth a shot to test
Far better than that, the 6/6 Trample body here can profitably attack into boards of 1/1 Spirits with Flying, Baneslayer Angel, Lyra Dawnbringer, etc all of which more or less stonewall the Priest. Difference between a 5/5 and 6/6 in cube is pretty big!
Seems like possible replace for Priest of the Blood Rite, the two life loss per turn is replaced with Surveil 2. I think Surveil repeatedly will prove to be powerful. Being able to see two cards in every time while also filling the graveyard is a solid effect. The biggest drawback is you lose out on a little ETB abuse with Priest. I can see this card being worth a shot to test
Far better than that, the 6/6 Trample body here can profitably attack into boards of 1/1 Spirits with Flying, Baneslayer Angel, Lyra Dawnbringer, etc all of which more or less stonewall the Priest. Difference between a 5/5 and 6/6 in cube is pretty big!
He's still a demon, so he doesn't attack well into baneslayer.
He's still a demon, so he doesn't attack well into baneslayer.
Yep, but he can still do it without dying. So it's not net positive attacking alone into Baneslayer, but alongside other creatures it'll allow for meaningful alpha strikes and races! Much better than almost any previous iteration of this creature in cube, like an Abyssal Persecutor or Shadowborn Demon but without any drawback.
Ummm shadowborn demon can just kill baneslayer when it comes into play so in the narrow scenario I like that one. Persecutor, master of the feast etc. were all cheaper. I just don't know how much better this is than bloodgift demon which always seems great on paper.
Right now I am running Grey Merchant, which just wins games on the spot. Yes it is a build around but people like to do that. The other 5 drop is Sidisi, who was recently brought back and is again mediocre. That said my honorary 5 drops(Bib Lilli, Graveyard Marshal, Shriekmaw) are solid so maybe I will try this guy if I get it.
My issue is that stat monster creatures are rarely enduring in cube and languish in pick order. My group looks for synergies and LTB effects. There is a reason that people love a good Thragtusk and Kalonian Hydra gets last picked. The term vinidcate test is overused as that is only a piece of the pick decision. Something like Grey Merchant can become many times better based on previsou or future picks and excites players with possibilities. Cube palyers are not struggling for playables and looking for a solid beater. We often can take 5-10 flyers that often us up to bomb combos and not play them if the draft doesn't go our way.
The surveil is fine but something I want on a 1 or 2 drop. It's not card advantage. Even if I activate it 5 times it is just making sure I get 2 good draws. Not any sort of cart advantage.
This will do fine and kill lots of things becasue it is a big thing ,but I am still waiting for my black deranged hermit.
Ok too much vino I read it as you get to kill a creature rather than the demon targeting but the point is you get something when you cast it. There are plenty of scenarios where doom whisperer will come down and you are losing to aggro and you can't attack and the best thing you can do it hold it up to block and prey they don't have removal.
On the limited resources podcast they talk a lot about the quadrant theroy. I care very little about what cube threat I am casting when I am ahead because they are all good at killing. 5 drops are for developing that leaves parity and behind. At parity this card looks great. Huge threat and an ability which improves my draw. But behind this card is pretty mediocre.
Yes but red is the most common aggressive color and it has a hard time killing him.
I think the whole point is red won’t have to, they can just kill its controller, and I agree this thing against aggro seems pretty bad, it’s sbility being pretty bad, though still possibly game winning in that matchup. Bane skater actually does really well in that same situation, providing 10 life swings each turn cycle. This card could end up being nuts, but I really doubt it, I think I still prefer custodi lich.
Or you cast this guy, red player attacks into it. You block their 3 power guy, they finish it with a bolt. You get a 2 for one but the rest of their dudes make it through and you don't really stop them from killing you.
It's true that this is not the 5 drop you want to cast when you're far behind. He's only one body, has no etb effect and his ability uses life as a resource. So build your deck knowing that this guy is weak to aggro and be prepared to combat quick decks with other tools. Not every card is good in every situation.
Now, if you're not losing horribly and you're able to untap with him, Doom Whisperer is able to control you're graveyard and draws, as well as probably being the biggest boy on the battlefield. 5 mana is not that huge an investment for such massive upside.
If Doomwhisperer ends up being good enough for medium cubes, how good his ability ends up being will be the kicker... and hence his power will be very sensitive to deck composition.
He's mediocore against agro, especially white agro. But he's better than a value generating planeswalker or something... I played a fair amount with abysall persecutor, and a 6/6 flyer holds the fort pretty well unless they are going wide. Black is the color of dark ritual, so it's not impossible to get this thing out early game.
Against control/ramp/combo, he trades down for cheaper 1 for 1 answers, which seems bad... However, this is offset by the value of his ability, which you can activate the ability as many times as necessary the second he enters the battlefield...
If you are getting value by putting things into the graveyard, and/or there is a very high impact card in your deck that's worth digging to, surveiling as necessary can be worth well over a card...
My concern is that there's not much lifegain in black, and life is a precious resource due to the amount of effects that damage you. So it's very hard to "combo off" with him, which is somewhat necessary to make him a threat against slow decks.
I've been tempted to return back whip of erebos as a roleplayer card... which this guy would work really well with..
It sounds like he has a drawback after all...
We can't honestly expect every card to do everything well, so it seems like we should focus on practicality. He's a mid-range beater for 5 that irons out your draws. It'll play well in wildfire because you can dig for your sweeper. Reanimation will also be good. Using life for these decks don't matter when you're ahead.
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It's a black midrange creature. It's matchup against aggro isn't critical; I want it to shine against control. And it puts on a fast clock even against chump-blockers, and has an activated ability that'll be really powerful in the midrange vs control matchup. This isn't the black Siege-Gang Commander that I really wanted, but it's still a good 5cc oversized monster that will be good in a lot of situations.
I think we've been waiting on the perfect black 5 drop for so long that it can't exist outside of a card that reads:
Black Wins4B
Creature - Winner (MR)
You may pay 0 instead of paying the casting cost of this card.
When Black Wins enters the battlefield, you win the game.
Who Cares what the p/t is.
Hyperbole aside....I think this is the best so far. It's an incredibly above-curve creature that even reanimator builds will pick up and it can dig for the other cards you need to win. When you put this next to Abyssal Persecutor you being to appreciate how disgustingly good this is...for 1 more you go from "you can't win and your opponent's can't lose" to the exact same stats and a repeatable ability to pay 2 life to fix your draws. I'm actually glad I still run persecutor because the cut is very easy here.
All I want is a black five drop in comparable powerlevel to five drops of other colors. I think Custodi Lich is better too.
This card reminds of Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath. Both are at their best against control, both lose you life and provide one blocker the turn you play them, both are weak to spot removal and bounce. Ob didn't cut it. Is this better enough to make it?
As somebody who tries to only occasionally build and play reanimator decks in the cube as to not burn himself out on the joy of Exhumeing Primeval Titans on turn 2, I'm still not sure if this is a good enough use of a coveted reanimator spell due to my general lack of experience with drafting and playing the archetype consistently. How desperate would you probably need to be before you feel like you have to spend am Animate Dead or a Life / Death on this guy? Wurmcoil Engine and Inferno Titan both have 6 attack and are some of the premier targets for early recursion spells, and while this card does not compare at all favorably with either of the aforementioned creatures, do any of you guys think that Whisperer is safe to group in with the others nonetheless as a midrange creature value with just enough stats and utility that if accelerated out onto the battlefield through the graveyard on turns 2 or 3 that it might sport a similar, or at least close enough winrate to the super pushed 6 drop monsters, that it could safely qualify as a valid first target for your Reanimates if you find your opener lacking other more beneficial targets?
For example, although getting a Verduous Gearhulk in play on turns 2 or 3 is obviously sweet, I have found that doing so is generally counterproductive to your strategy because saving that reanimation spell for a better target like a Consecrated Sphinx on turn 4 instead, while clearly a slower play from what is typically considered a very fast deck, is capable of substantially increasing your winrate in the face of removal and other forms of disruption, so therefore Verduous Gearhulk is not worth using your resurrection options on because it fails to accomplish more than patiently waiting for a better Rez target a turn or two down the line would (assuming its your only fatty in hand and you only have one reanimateor spell and/or one single-use discard outlet). To continue my previous example, although it may at first appear functionally unimpactful in a deck clearly centered around returning cards worth well over 3cmc, I would consider the comparatively inexpensive 6cmc creature Sun Titan a prime reanimation target for turns 2 or 3, for the variety of synergies it can provide with a wide array of targets like sac-lands, dead looters, utility creatures/Planeswalkers strategically discarded as to avoid having to cast them from your hand (Vendilion Clique esque permanents that you choose to pitch off of an Oona's Prowler EOT for extra value), removal that doubles as a permanent (Song of the Dryads and Oblivion Ring come to mind), and by far the most important factor in this particular Titan's arsenal it it's unique ability to instantly take over games by returning your other enchantment based reanimation spells to play, in turn resurrecting another large creature from your graveyard to play on the same turn without paying any additional mana costs, and only continues to generate absurd value as the game quickly progresses (Return your Animate Dead style enchantments to double or even triple up on your 'total reanimation value':'total mana spent' ratio, which is already great on turns 5 or 6 when hardcast from your hand, but who's value exponentially increases for each turn earlier you can carry out the game-breaking combo).
For something like Doom Whisperer it seems mediocre on paper as a reanimation target as it lacks an effective self-contained means to disrupt your opponents mana, any non-combat means of killing pesky disruptive creatures your opponent may control, it has no ability or potential to generate you substantial card advantages, and at its baseline it lacks the proper stat-distribution and attack value necessary to close out games quickly in a mere 2 turns or less like some of the colorless, black, and red fatties posses. However, my gut keeps telling me that this card is good enough to be your first (and in turn most important) reanimation target in a given game if you lack access to another fatty at that exact moment that is capable digging similarly deep into your deck to accelerate you and snowball your board presence directly into your next next imminent combo turn, and I believe that it is honestly capable of bumping Consecrated Sphinx out of its original spot in what used to be the trifecta of reanimation fatties that could accelerate your gameplan with the least effort and variance necessary in ways that before only Griselbrand and Primeval Titan so quickly and uniquely could achieve. I just think that Doom Whisperer is probably substantially faster and more efficient than an early Consecrated Sphinx ever could be as the Whisperer gets your fatties directly into the graveyard without the need to dig for a discard outlet as well. I don't know if my expectations seem reasonable by any means, but I've grown to usually at least initially trust my gut on matters that I don't consider especially egregious, as I personally have found that my gut somehow ends up correct a lot more often than not, and I want to know if you guys also share these same attitudes and opinions on this card, or do I maybe just need to stop being so overly-excited about the set and ground myself to reality for a bit longer before I try to evaluate which cards to preorder?
Also worth noting, just because I think Doom Whisperer is better than Consecrated SphinxIN REANIMATOR SPECIFICALLY doesn't mean I'm suggesting for anybody to cut their Sphinxes, because that card is still nuts and literally drowned me in card advantage the last 2 consecutive games against UB Reanimator I've had to play, and one time one of my cube buddies got to cast it for free off of his Tinkered Aether Searcher with the aid of a turn 2 Mox Diamond in an unpowered draft back when we used to play Searcher for the funnsies, but it was cut only a few months after that indecent for being too inconstant and narrow. Needless to say, I have plenty of respect and experience for evaluating Sphinx's value in gameplay, and I don't think I'm underestimating it right now even in regards to my strong comparisons drawn between it and the demon.
I plan on casting this as a 5-drop. But if I have to reanimate it in a pinch because that's the play that's available to me... I've certainly spent reanimation spells on more embarrassing creatures than this over the years.
Really? Well I’d recommend your playgroup try it out in reanimator. I like drawing lots of extra cards, and turns out Sphinx is really good at doing that.
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EDIT: And... AND... it's called "Doom Whisperer". I can't believe this hasn't been brought up. It would be the sickest card name in my black section.
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Far better than that, the 6/6 Trample body here can profitably attack into boards of 1/1 Spirits with Flying, Baneslayer Angel, Lyra Dawnbringer, etc all of which more or less stonewall the Priest. Difference between a 5/5 and 6/6 in cube is pretty big!
He's still a demon, so he doesn't attack well into baneslayer.
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Yep, but he can still do it without dying. So it's not net positive attacking alone into Baneslayer, but alongside other creatures it'll allow for meaningful alpha strikes and races! Much better than almost any previous iteration of this creature in cube, like an Abyssal Persecutor or Shadowborn Demon but without any drawback.
Right now I am running Grey Merchant, which just wins games on the spot. Yes it is a build around but people like to do that. The other 5 drop is Sidisi, who was recently brought back and is again mediocre. That said my honorary 5 drops(Bib Lilli, Graveyard Marshal, Shriekmaw) are solid so maybe I will try this guy if I get it.
My issue is that stat monster creatures are rarely enduring in cube and languish in pick order. My group looks for synergies and LTB effects. There is a reason that people love a good Thragtusk and Kalonian Hydra gets last picked. The term vinidcate test is overused as that is only a piece of the pick decision. Something like Grey Merchant can become many times better based on previsou or future picks and excites players with possibilities. Cube palyers are not struggling for playables and looking for a solid beater. We often can take 5-10 flyers that often us up to bomb combos and not play them if the draft doesn't go our way.
The surveil is fine but something I want on a 1 or 2 drop. It's not card advantage. Even if I activate it 5 times it is just making sure I get 2 good draws. Not any sort of cart advantage.
This will do fine and kill lots of things becasue it is a big thing ,but I am still waiting for my black deranged hermit.
Um...
I agree with most of your post though.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
On the limited resources podcast they talk a lot about the quadrant theroy. I care very little about what cube threat I am casting when I am ahead because they are all good at killing. 5 drops are for developing that leaves parity and behind. At parity this card looks great. Huge threat and an ability which improves my draw. But behind this card is pretty mediocre.
I think the whole point is red won’t have to, they can just kill its controller, and I agree this thing against aggro seems pretty bad, it’s sbility being pretty bad, though still possibly game winning in that matchup. Bane skater actually does really well in that same situation, providing 10 life swings each turn cycle. This card could end up being nuts, but I really doubt it, I think I still prefer custodi lich.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
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Now, if you're not losing horribly and you're able to untap with him, Doom Whisperer is able to control you're graveyard and draws, as well as probably being the biggest boy on the battlefield. 5 mana is not that huge an investment for such massive upside.
He's mediocore against agro, especially white agro. But he's better than a value generating planeswalker or something... I played a fair amount with abysall persecutor, and a 6/6 flyer holds the fort pretty well unless they are going wide. Black is the color of dark ritual, so it's not impossible to get this thing out early game.
Against control/ramp/combo, he trades down for cheaper 1 for 1 answers, which seems bad... However, this is offset by the value of his ability, which you can activate the ability as many times as necessary the second he enters the battlefield...
If you are getting value by putting things into the graveyard, and/or there is a very high impact card in your deck that's worth digging to, surveiling as necessary can be worth well over a card...
My concern is that there's not much lifegain in black, and life is a precious resource due to the amount of effects that damage you. So it's very hard to "combo off" with him, which is somewhat necessary to make him a threat against slow decks.
I've been tempted to return back whip of erebos as a roleplayer card... which this guy would work really well with..
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We can't honestly expect every card to do everything well, so it seems like we should focus on practicality. He's a mid-range beater for 5 that irons out your draws. It'll play well in wildfire because you can dig for your sweeper. Reanimation will also be good. Using life for these decks don't matter when you're ahead.
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Black Wins 4B
Creature - Winner (MR)
You may pay 0 instead of paying the casting cost of this card.
When Black Wins enters the battlefield, you win the game.
Who Cares what the p/t is.
Hyperbole aside....I think this is the best so far. It's an incredibly above-curve creature that even reanimator builds will pick up and it can dig for the other cards you need to win. When you put this next to Abyssal Persecutor you being to appreciate how disgustingly good this is...for 1 more you go from "you can't win and your opponent's can't lose" to the exact same stats and a repeatable ability to pay 2 life to fix your draws. I'm actually glad I still run persecutor because the cut is very easy here.
This card reminds of Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath. Both are at their best against control, both lose you life and provide one blocker the turn you play them, both are weak to spot removal and bounce. Ob didn't cut it. Is this better enough to make it?
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For example, although getting a Verduous Gearhulk in play on turns 2 or 3 is obviously sweet, I have found that doing so is generally counterproductive to your strategy because saving that reanimation spell for a better target like a Consecrated Sphinx on turn 4 instead, while clearly a slower play from what is typically considered a very fast deck, is capable of substantially increasing your winrate in the face of removal and other forms of disruption, so therefore Verduous Gearhulk is not worth using your resurrection options on because it fails to accomplish more than patiently waiting for a better Rez target a turn or two down the line would (assuming its your only fatty in hand and you only have one reanimateor spell and/or one single-use discard outlet). To continue my previous example, although it may at first appear functionally unimpactful in a deck clearly centered around returning cards worth well over 3cmc, I would consider the comparatively inexpensive 6cmc creature Sun Titan a prime reanimation target for turns 2 or 3, for the variety of synergies it can provide with a wide array of targets like sac-lands, dead looters, utility creatures/Planeswalkers strategically discarded as to avoid having to cast them from your hand (Vendilion Clique esque permanents that you choose to pitch off of an Oona's Prowler EOT for extra value), removal that doubles as a permanent (Song of the Dryads and Oblivion Ring come to mind), and by far the most important factor in this particular Titan's arsenal it it's unique ability to instantly take over games by returning your other enchantment based reanimation spells to play, in turn resurrecting another large creature from your graveyard to play on the same turn without paying any additional mana costs, and only continues to generate absurd value as the game quickly progresses (Return your Animate Dead style enchantments to double or even triple up on your 'total reanimation value':'total mana spent' ratio, which is already great on turns 5 or 6 when hardcast from your hand, but who's value exponentially increases for each turn earlier you can carry out the game-breaking combo).
For something like Doom Whisperer it seems mediocre on paper as a reanimation target as it lacks an effective self-contained means to disrupt your opponents mana, any non-combat means of killing pesky disruptive creatures your opponent may control, it has no ability or potential to generate you substantial card advantages, and at its baseline it lacks the proper stat-distribution and attack value necessary to close out games quickly in a mere 2 turns or less like some of the colorless, black, and red fatties posses. However, my gut keeps telling me that this card is good enough to be your first (and in turn most important) reanimation target in a given game if you lack access to another fatty at that exact moment that is capable digging similarly deep into your deck to accelerate you and snowball your board presence directly into your next next imminent combo turn, and I believe that it is honestly capable of bumping Consecrated Sphinx out of its original spot in what used to be the trifecta of reanimation fatties that could accelerate your gameplan with the least effort and variance necessary in ways that before only Griselbrand and Primeval Titan so quickly and uniquely could achieve. I just think that Doom Whisperer is probably substantially faster and more efficient than an early Consecrated Sphinx ever could be as the Whisperer gets your fatties directly into the graveyard without the need to dig for a discard outlet as well. I don't know if my expectations seem reasonable by any means, but I've grown to usually at least initially trust my gut on matters that I don't consider especially egregious, as I personally have found that my gut somehow ends up correct a lot more often than not, and I want to know if you guys also share these same attitudes and opinions on this card, or do I maybe just need to stop being so overly-excited about the set and ground myself to reality for a bit longer before I try to evaluate which cards to preorder?
Also worth noting, just because I think Doom Whisperer is better than Consecrated Sphinx IN REANIMATOR SPECIFICALLY doesn't mean I'm suggesting for anybody to cut their Sphinxes, because that card is still nuts and literally drowned me in card advantage the last 2 consecutive games against UB Reanimator I've had to play, and one time one of my cube buddies got to cast it for free off of his Tinkered Aether Searcher with the aid of a turn 2 Mox Diamond in an unpowered draft back when we used to play Searcher for the funnsies, but it was cut only a few months after that indecent for being too inconstant and narrow. Needless to say, I have plenty of respect and experience for evaluating Sphinx's value in gameplay, and I don't think I'm underestimating it right now even in regards to my strong comparisons drawn between it and the demon.
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