if the majority of people at your table draft aggressive decks, then that third point of toughness goes a long way.
Having 3 toughness matters against everything, not just aggro. Combat isn't an aggro-only phenomenon. It matters the most against midrange, where their value bodies are preventing your creatures from profitably attacking. That's where Garrison's body is the best, and it's the matchup that's the most relevant because it's the hardest matchup for red aggro to begin with.
garrison rarely got to attack
If it never gets to attack, is the lone 1/1 goblin the others leave behind creating some kind of meaningful board impact I'm missing? And if it never got to attack because the opponent had a blocker out, the 1/1 token had to throw itself away anyways.
the other cards have the ability to generate tokens without attacking
Often only relevant because the opponent has a blocker that's preventing the main body from attacking. Which is either A) circumvented by having 3 toughness, or B) irrelevant, because the token Rabblemaster/Rabblementor is creating has to suicide into that body anyways.
While all of your points are true, you are neglecting something I believe is important: immediate impact.
If the opponent has x/1s, then the 1/1s are relevant bodies. It's been an extremely common scenario for Garrison/Rabblemaster to die immediately when the opponent untaps. So while Garrison can attack into exactly one two+-toughness creature (or two including interaction), it's just been so common not to untap with the card.
Given that both take over the game in a similar capacity when you can interact with blockers and they stick around, my group prefers the creature that provides the most immediate impact.
To be honest, I would just guess the architecture of decks that are common in our cube make a large difference here. Garrison is not a creature I like vs. the midrange decks in my cube because of their abundance of interaction. Attempting to untap with a 3cmc threat is not where my aggressive decks want to be in those matchups. It's also possible that I'm in an anomalous situation where almost every time the card has been played (probably around ~15 times or so), the opponent has had an answer. Continues to happen with rabblemaster as well, and it's why I'm not huge on any of the cards.
Overall, this was a reasonable discussion, but I don't think either of us are moving based on experience, and I will likely test the card sometime again anyways (I cut it literally yesterday).
I like this card a lot. I'd say it's about equivalent to Garrison (swings for 1 more point on t4, gets a point in on t3, but lower toughness is big). I think this card is an easy include at 450 alongside Garrison and Rabblemaster. Red 3's have come a long way.
FWIW, this card is way way better than Najeela - from a damage output perspective, it's not close. If both are played on t3 and are unchecked, Najeela doesn't exceed Legion Warboss's damage output until turn 7, and it's just as easy to block. The warrior synergy and ability are cool, but neither come up enough to justify playing it over Warboss.
Hyperbole much?
In a vacuum their cumulative damage output is
1 -> 6 -> 13 -> 22
0 -> 4 -> 10 -> 20
this is "not close" to you?
Najeela has advantages of 3 power , warrior synergies (which are relevant), has 5c multi-color advantage (which is relevant in my cube and wouldnt be surprised if a few other cubes get 5c agro decks).. Legion warleader has the downside of must attack when opponent has a lifelink creature. Warleader generates a small advantage through sorcery speed removal.
In the average cube I expect legion warleader to be slightly better, way better is pushing it a lot, way way better is an abuse of the English language.
Looks like this thread has blown up quite a bit and I missed the train... oops.
In any case, the difference between 22 and 20 is negligible. The difference between 6 and 4, however, is huge. When you’re trying to squeeze every point out of your cards and you don’t expect these kinds of cards to swing twice (let alone three times), those two points can be the difference between a dead and stabilized opponent. So no, it’s not close to me.
At least for us, these cards tend to go in aggressive decks, so baseline damage output is the first thing I look for in these cards. This card is just much more consistent than Najeela at doing the thing you want in that deck - murdering your opponent ASAP.
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This card is just much more consistent than Najeela at doing the thing you want in that deck - murdering your opponent ASAP.
At the moment, Najeela is like ...the 2nd fastest clock in the history of Magic. I think you're severely underselling her ability to apply pressure.
Also, am I the only person with other Warriors in my cube? Have you had her in play with another Warrior out? She IS the fastest clock in Magic with one warrior on the table already. I've been able to draft 3-color Warrior tribal decks around Najeela since there's so many playable Warriors around. People discuss it like it's some irrelevant upside, when it should be a part of her overall evaluation. Without other warriors, I guess she'll have to settle for being the 3rd fastest clock of all time after this new creature is printed. Terrible.
I'm not sure I'm wild about this. I think part of what makes Rabblemaster good is that once it can swing, it is coming for at least 3 damage and maybe 4 by itself which means that sometimes people have to trade x/3's and even x/4's when dealing with it. This guy will die to a 2/3 without trading and with only a single 2/2 left behind. That isn't godawful, but I'm not quite sure if this will go in my 450 or not. I love Hanweir Garrison, but moreso for Purphoros/Anthem decks than pure aggro.
I like this card a lot. I'd say it's about equivalent to Garrison (swings for 1 more point on t4, gets a point in on t3, but lower toughness is big). I think this card is an easy include at 450 alongside Garrison and Rabblemaster. Red 3's have come a long way.
FWIW, this card is way way better than Najeela - from a damage output perspective, it's not close. If both are played on t3 and are unchecked, Najeela doesn't exceed Legion Warboss's damage output until turn 7, and it's just as easy to block. The warrior synergy and ability are cool, but neither come up enough to justify playing it over Warboss.
Hyperbole much?
In a vacuum their cumulative damage output is
1 -> 6 -> 13 -> 22
0 -> 4 -> 10 -> 20
this is "not close" to you?
Najeela has advantages of 3 power , warrior synergies (which are relevant), has 5c multi-color advantage (which is relevant in my cube and wouldnt be surprised if a few other cubes get 5c agro decks).. Legion warleader has the downside of must attack when opponent has a lifelink creature. Warleader generates a small advantage through sorcery speed removal.
In the average cube I expect legion warleader to be slightly better, way better is pushing it a lot, way way better is an abuse of the English language.
Looks like this thread has blown up quite a bit and I missed the train... oops.
In any case, the difference between 22 and 20 is negligible. The difference between 6 and 4, however, is huge. When you’re trying to squeeze every point out of your cards and you don’t expect these kinds of cards to swing twice (let alone three times), those two points can be the difference between a dead and stabilized opponent. So no, it’s not close to me.
At least for us, these cards tend to go in aggressive decks, so baseline damage output is the first thing I look for in these cards. This card is just much more consistent than Najeela at doing the thing you want in that deck - murdering your opponent ASAP.
Didn't mean to be rude in my original post, (fwiw I have a lot of respect for your custom cube, very cool!).. and I agree with you that uninterupted damage output is the most important metric to look at when evaluating a red creature... but all the other attributes combined more than make up for a lower uninterrupted damage output.
I disagree with your comparison though, the damage beyond the 2nd turn that both najeela and Legion warleader can produce is very important to their average damage output.
Even if the average (or median) frequency of hitting the opponent is once.. The average OUTPUT (more relevant to it's power level) is not the damage the creatures does after one hit. The average damage a creature does is a weighted sum of the damage they do across all possible scenarios multiplied by the likelihood of those scenarios occurring...
The damage when rabblemaster type creatures run away with the game is so high, that even if it's not very frequent, it has a large effect on their average output... and in that zone najeela competes favorably with Legion warleader... WITHOUT a warrior.
If this wasn't true then shouldn't Anh-crop crasher be rated higher than goblin rabblemaster and Legion warleader?
Anh crop crasher's first two turns damage is 3->6 AND can get through a blocker on the second turn on top of that.
Silverblade paladin's damage output soulbonded with a measly 2/1 is 2->8.. Puts ANY red 3 drop to shame... Why isn't anyone running it anymore?
I'll try to illustrate it a different way. Unless I'm forgetting something (which is certainly possible), there are currently only two creatures in the history of Magic that deal 20+ damage entirely on their own by the end of combat on Turn 6. That's Goblin Rabblemaster and Najeela, the Blade-Blossom. Leigon Warboss will become the third. Each has their legitimate pros and cons in comparison to one another. I see no reason not to play all 3 of them.
Well, technically Tempting Wurm can do it, but... I wouldn't advise cubing that.
One thing I like about Warboss is that if it trades away in combat, you'll be left with some number of 2/2 creatures (and a 1/1) on the table instead of just 1/1s. I think it helps raise his floor by quite a bit in a world full of 2/1 and 2/2 bodies.
As to your last point, I absolutely would run Ahn-Crop Crasher over Najeela, and we've been considering it over Hanweir Garrison (Rabbie is top dog). According to Cubetutor, it sees a lot more play than Najeela (at least partially due to Najeela's recency, to be fair) and also has a higher pick percentage than Najeela and even than Hanweir Garrison.
those last statistics are mostly irrelevant. Most people drafting on cube tutor aren't taking it seriously, or are terrible at magic. Random drop ins that draft my cube and save the deck draft horrendously. I don't think ive ever? seen a reasonable draft of it heh. Not sure how they calculate the pick percentage either... Ahn-crop is an uncommon so will be in peasent cubes, and picked proportionally higher just due to that.
I've cubed with ahn-crop crasher for a few months back when it was spoiled, it's a solid creature but a clear step below Najeela. Without any warriors, in mono red.. Add some warriors in the mix, or a 5c agro deck and they aren't even close.
I'm not sure I'm wild about this. I think part of what makes Rabblemaster good is that once it can swing, it is coming for at least 3 damage and maybe 4 by itself which means that sometimes people have to trade x/3's and even x/4's when dealing with it. This guy will die to a 2/3 without trading and with only a single 2/2 left behind. That isn't godawful, but I'm not quite sure if this will go in my 450 or not. I love Hanweir Garrison, but moreso for Purphoros/Anthem decks than pure aggro.
Yeah this is definitly a thing... I can remmeber quite a few times having to trade a courser of kruphix or something beefy with the rabblemaster or face lethal or go to a critical low burn life total.
I do think this guy will be a noteable notch below rabble and hanweir because of his difficulty getting through blockers profitably.
The one exception is when the opponent has a 1/2 or 1/3 on the battlefield, that can stonewall rabblemaster tokens. This guy can make the tokens into 2/2's and have them live. I personally don't run many creatures with those stats but there are a few.
Crasher is maybe better for hard aggro. But just hard aggro. All of the variants we're discussing here go into more decks. If you support token strategies of any kind, or sacrifice decks, or anything else that can benefit from having extra bodies on the board, cards like Najeela and Garrison gain a ton of value.
Red is more than just RDW in my cube, and in those other archetypes, I get far more mileage by including the token-engine creatures.
I don't play 5-color aggro decks either, but I've activated Najeela's ability multiple times.
Quote from Swarles_Barkley »
As another small indication, Ahn-Crop Crasher is the 5th most played red creature in competitive (duel) commander. As far as I am aware, Najeela does not see any competitive play.
Najeela 5-0'd two 1v1 Commander leagues yesterday alone... She's one of the 12 most popular competitive 1v1 commanders out there.
This looks really great, but I'm not sure how many of these creatures I need at 450. I still need to add Najeela, too. Is four too many? How about three, and then which three? All so good!
Unless I'm forgetting something (which is certainly possible), there are currently only two creatures in the history of Magic that deal 20+ damage entirely on their own by the end of combat on Turn 6. That's Goblin Rabblemaster and Najeela, the Blade-Blossom.
Unless I'm forgetting something (which is certainly possible), there are currently only two creatures in the history of Magic that deal 20+ damage entirely on their own by the end of combat on Turn 6. That's Goblin Rabblemaster and Najeela, the Blade-Blossom.
I disagree with your comparison though, the damage beyond the 2nd turn that both najeela and Legion warleader can produce is very important to their average damage output.
Even if the average (or median) frequency of hitting the opponent is once.. The average OUTPUT (more relevant to it's power level) is not the damage the creatures does after one hit. The average damage a creature does is a weighted sum of the damage they do across all possible scenarios multiplied by the likelihood of those scenarios occurring...
The damage when rabblemaster type creatures run away with the game is so high, that even if it's not very frequent, it has a large effect on their average output... and in that zone najeela competes favorably with Legion warleader... WITHOUT a warrior.
If this wasn't true then shouldn't Anh-crop crasher be rated higher than goblin rabblemaster and Legion warleader?
Anh crop crasher's first two turns damage is 3->6 AND can get through a blocker on the second turn on top of that.
Silverblade paladin's damage output soulbonded with a measly 2/1 is 2->8.. Puts ANY red 3 drop to shame... Why isn't anyone running it anymore?
Najeela outclasses Warboss in terms of damage output starting only on t7. These types of cards are absolute removal/blocking magnets - expecting them to swing that many times is a pipe dream. Anything that blocks Warboss also blocks Najeela (granted Najeela trades up more often). You're absolutely right that their value is the weighted average of damage*P(scenario), but the most frequent scenario by far is getting to attack only once or twice, in which case Warboss excels.
More importantly, Warboss leaves behind 3 points of power to Najeela's 1 if either is removed or blocked after the first swing. That's really the key difference.
If, uh, your aggro/midrange decks can regularly put together 5 colored mana, then I guess Najeela is better
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As to the warrior point, even if you have another Warrior in play, one swing still leaves you a point short of Warboss's damage.
This isn't true. With an attacking Warrior the turn Najeela resolves, she outpaces all of the other alternatives over any number of turns.
Oops, you’re right. In any case, I don’t want my aggressive red cards to rely on having other cards in play to be better than their counterparts. In my cube, I count 6 warriors that have cmc less than Najeela (and one of them is Wild Nacatl). If that number was 10+ and my aggressive deck could reliably have 2-3 other cheap warriors, sure maybe. But the contribution of that ability of the card is on the whole, very minor, certainly not overcoming a 2 damage point deficit at face value.
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I disagree with your comparison though, the damage beyond the 2nd turn that both najeela and Legion warleader can produce is very important to their average damage output.
Even if the average (or median) frequency of hitting the opponent is once.. The average OUTPUT (more relevant to it's power level) is not the damage the creatures does after one hit. The average damage a creature does is a weighted sum of the damage they do across all possible scenarios multiplied by the likelihood of those scenarios occurring...
The damage when rabblemaster type creatures run away with the game is so high, that even if it's not very frequent, it has a large effect on their average output... and in that zone najeela competes favorably with Legion warleader... WITHOUT a warrior.
If this wasn't true then shouldn't Anh-crop crasher be rated higher than goblin rabblemaster and Legion warleader?
Anh crop crasher's first two turns damage is 3->6 AND can get through a blocker on the second turn on top of that.
Silverblade paladin's damage output soulbonded with a measly 2/1 is 2->8.. Puts ANY red 3 drop to shame... Why isn't anyone running it anymore?
Najeela outclasses Warboss in terms of damage output starting only on t7. These types of cards are absolute removal/blocking magnets - expecting them to swing that many times is a pipe dream. Anything that blocks Warboss also blocks Najeela (granted Najeela trades up more often). You're absolutely right that their value is the weighted average of damage*P(scenario), but the most frequent scenario by far is getting to attack only once or twice, in which case Warboss excels.
More importantly, Warboss leaves behind 3 points of power to Najeela's 1 if either is removed or blocked after the first swing. That's really the key difference.
If, uh, your aggro/midrange decks can regularly put together 5 colored mana, then I guess Najeela is better
I took issue with you saying that she's way way worse, not that she is worse. I agree that without warrior synergies she is worse.
When calculating the average damage of creatures who's damage increases exponentially, the early turns don't contribute much more to their total average output than the later turns (until lethal damage is reached).
The damage of these creatures are doubling exponentially, so even if the likelyhood of connecting an additional time is halfing exponentially, the amount contributed to average damage from each turn is very comparable...
Connecting zero times is the most common scenario, which is what brings the total average down to levels that are in line with a 3 mana spell. Once the opponent lacks an answer or a blocker for 1 attack, there's a solid chance (25%-40%?) they won't have the proper answer the next one.
Decks that increase the probability the opponent won't have an answer for future turns are decks where najeela excels in. Counterspells, thoughtseize, lots of removal etc. (Ignoring warrior synergies which is her biggest upside)
I don’t want my aggressive red cards to rely on having other cards in play to be better than their counterparts.
Sigh. Again, she doesn't. Warrior interactions are just one of many reasons why she might be better for a specific deck/situation. Each of these creatures has legitimate pros and cons over the other depending on any number of various metrics. If you want to ignore all the other metrics and measure their value by one facet, go ahead. But she's not "worse" from an objective standpoint than any of the other 3 options. If you prefer the other 3, fine. But better/worse can be a measurable thing, and she's not better or worse than any of the others once all the angles are evaluated.
If [damage output in the first two swings] is the only metric you care to analyze them by, then yes. She's tied for 3rd in this group of 4. But if you look at overall clock speed, token production, interactions/synergies, combat threat value or any other number of metrics, she places ahead of Warboss in a number of different ways.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because they're all great. Splashable aggressive beaters that are good in aggro and token strategies and provide lightning-fast clocks if uninterrupted. Hopefully we can all agree on that, and let the rankings among the group fall to personal/playgroup preference.
I'll try to illustrate it a different way. Unless I'm forgetting something (which is certainly possible), there are currently only two creatures in the history of Magic that deal 20+ damage entirely on their own by the end of combat on Turn 6. That's Goblin Rabblemaster and Najeela, the Blade-Blossom. Leigon Warboss will become the third. Each has their legitimate pros and cons in comparison to one another. I see no reason not to play all 3 of them.
Posed this question for discussion and got back some more possible answers:
Markov Blademaster
Pack Rat (assumes you get your third land)
Figure of Destiny (assumes you make consistent land drops until T5)
Warden of the First Tree (assumes you make consistent land drops until T6)
Vexing Devil (if they don't pay to force it to sacrifice)
Hunted Horror (makes its own blockers, so it definitely feels like this shouldn't count)
Posed this question for discussion and got back some more possible answers:
Markov Blademaster
Pack Rat (assumes you get your third land)
Figure of Destiny (assumes you make consistent land drops until T5)
Warden of the First Tree (assumes you make consistent land drops until T6)
Vexing Devil (if they don't pay to force it to sacrifice)
Hunted Horror (makes its own blockers, so it definitely feels like this shouldn't count)
Looking at this list, I think it says a lot about why the current red three drop suite is so powerful (including Legion Warboss).
Markov Blademaster (legit interesting, but costs 1RR and invests everything into one creature)
Pack Rat (creates an army of rats all with the ability to continue creating an army of rats)
Figure/Warden (one mana investment, often trades up, provides mana sink)
Vexing Devil (rarely gets you what you want)
Hunted Horror (doesn't count)
Najeela et al are so good because they can legitimately get out of hand and become nearly impossible for your opponent to deal with.
I'll try to illustrate it a different way. Unless I'm forgetting something (which is certainly possible), there are currently only two creatures in the history of Magic that deal 20+ damage entirely on their own by the end of combat on Turn 6. That's Goblin Rabblemaster and Najeela, the Blade-Blossom. Leigon Warboss will become the third. Each has their legitimate pros and cons in comparison to one another. I see no reason not to play all 3 of them.
Posed this question for discussion and got back some more possible answers:
Markov Blademaster
Pack Rat (assumes you get your third land)
Figure of Destiny (assumes you make consistent land drops until T5)
Warden of the First Tree (assumes you make consistent land drops until T6)
Vexing Devil (if they don't pay to force it to sacrifice)
Hunted Horror (makes its own blockers, so it definitely feels like this shouldn't count)
I think Blademaster is the only one on this list that really counts, as the others require more mana/cards (more than what's required to cast them) to make them work.
But that just helps to illustrate the powerlevel of these 2R creatures. They put out unprecedented amounts of damage. And they do it with a splashable mana cost and with built-in protection against edicts and 1-for-1 removal.
I'll try to illustrate it a different way. Unless I'm forgetting something (which is certainly possible), there are currently only two creatures in the history of Magic that deal 20+ damage entirely on their own by the end of combat on Turn 6. That's Goblin Rabblemaster and Najeela, the Blade-Blossom. Leigon Warboss will become the third. Each has their legitimate pros and cons in comparison to one another. I see no reason not to play all 3 of them.
Posed this question for discussion and got back some more possible answers:
Markov Blademaster
Pack Rat (assumes you get your third land)
Figure of Destiny (assumes you make consistent land drops until T5)
Warden of the First Tree (assumes you make consistent land drops until T6)
Vexing Devil (if they don't pay to force it to sacrifice)
Hunted Horror (makes its own blockers, so it definitely feels like this shouldn't count)
I think Blademaster is the only one on this list that really counts, as the others require more mana/cards (more than what's required to cast them) to make them work.
But that just helps to illustrate the powerlevel of these 2R creatures. They put out unprecedented amounts of damage. And they do it with a splashable mana cost and with built-in protection against edicts and 1-for-1 removal.
Definitely. I'm thrilled to add Warboss to Rabble/Garrison/Najeela at 720. Makes for a fun thought exercise though.
I'll try to illustrate it a different way. Unless I'm forgetting something (which is certainly possible), there are currently only two creatures in the history of Magic that deal 20+ damage entirely on their own by the end of combat on Turn 6. That's Goblin Rabblemaster and Najeela, the Blade-Blossom. Leigon Warboss will become the third. Each has their legitimate pros and cons in comparison to one another. I see no reason not to play all 3 of them.
Posed this question for discussion and got back some more possible answers:
Markov Blademaster
Pack Rat (assumes you get your third land)
Figure of Destiny (assumes you make consistent land drops until T5)
Warden of the First Tree (assumes you make consistent land drops until T6)
Vexing Devil (if they don't pay to force it to sacrifice)
Hunted Horror (makes its own blockers, so it definitely feels like this shouldn't count)
Nice post. While Pack Rat involves a heavy investment in mana and cards, by my count it's actually lethal by the end of combat on turn 5. A nice distinction for the rats.
Figure of Destiny gets there on T5 as well: 0, 2, 4, 4, 8.
So does Student of Warfare: 0, 3, 3, 8, 8.
While all of your points are true, you are neglecting something I believe is important: immediate impact.
If the opponent has x/1s, then the 1/1s are relevant bodies. It's been an extremely common scenario for Garrison/Rabblemaster to die immediately when the opponent untaps. So while Garrison can attack into exactly one two+-toughness creature (or two including interaction), it's just been so common not to untap with the card.
Given that both take over the game in a similar capacity when you can interact with blockers and they stick around, my group prefers the creature that provides the most immediate impact.
To be honest, I would just guess the architecture of decks that are common in our cube make a large difference here. Garrison is not a creature I like vs. the midrange decks in my cube because of their abundance of interaction. Attempting to untap with a 3cmc threat is not where my aggressive decks want to be in those matchups. It's also possible that I'm in an anomalous situation where almost every time the card has been played (probably around ~15 times or so), the opponent has had an answer. Continues to happen with rabblemaster as well, and it's why I'm not huge on any of the cards.
Overall, this was a reasonable discussion, but I don't think either of us are moving based on experience, and I will likely test the card sometime again anyways (I cut it literally yesterday).
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Looks like this thread has blown up quite a bit and I missed the train... oops.
In any case, the difference between 22 and 20 is negligible. The difference between 6 and 4, however, is huge. When you’re trying to squeeze every point out of your cards and you don’t expect these kinds of cards to swing twice (let alone three times), those two points can be the difference between a dead and stabilized opponent. So no, it’s not close to me.
At least for us, these cards tend to go in aggressive decks, so baseline damage output is the first thing I look for in these cards. This card is just much more consistent than Najeela at doing the thing you want in that deck - murdering your opponent ASAP.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
At the moment, Najeela is like ...the 2nd fastest clock in the history of Magic. I think you're severely underselling her ability to apply pressure.
Also, am I the only person with other Warriors in my cube? Have you had her in play with another Warrior out? She IS the fastest clock in Magic with one warrior on the table already. I've been able to draft 3-color Warrior tribal decks around Najeela since there's so many playable Warriors around. People discuss it like it's some irrelevant upside, when it should be a part of her overall evaluation. Without other warriors, I guess she'll have to settle for being the 3rd fastest clock of all time after this new creature is printed. Terrible.
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Didn't mean to be rude in my original post, (fwiw I have a lot of respect for your custom cube, very cool!).. and I agree with you that uninterupted damage output is the most important metric to look at when evaluating a red creature... but all the other attributes combined more than make up for a lower uninterrupted damage output.
I disagree with your comparison though, the damage beyond the 2nd turn that both najeela and Legion warleader can produce is very important to their average damage output.
Even if the average (or median) frequency of hitting the opponent is once.. The average OUTPUT (more relevant to it's power level) is not the damage the creatures does after one hit. The average damage a creature does is a weighted sum of the damage they do across all possible scenarios multiplied by the likelihood of those scenarios occurring...
The damage when rabblemaster type creatures run away with the game is so high, that even if it's not very frequent, it has a large effect on their average output... and in that zone najeela competes favorably with Legion warleader... WITHOUT a warrior.
If this wasn't true then shouldn't Anh-crop crasher be rated higher than goblin rabblemaster and Legion warleader?
Anh crop crasher's first two turns damage is 3->6 AND can get through a blocker on the second turn on top of that.
Silverblade paladin's damage output soulbonded with a measly 2/1 is 2->8.. Puts ANY red 3 drop to shame... Why isn't anyone running it anymore?
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Well, technically Tempting Wurm can do it, but... I wouldn't advise cubing that.
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those last statistics are mostly irrelevant. Most people drafting on cube tutor aren't taking it seriously, or are terrible at magic. Random drop ins that draft my cube and save the deck draft horrendously. I don't think ive ever? seen a reasonable draft of it heh. Not sure how they calculate the pick percentage either... Ahn-crop is an uncommon so will be in peasent cubes, and picked proportionally higher just due to that.
I've cubed with ahn-crop crasher for a few months back when it was spoiled, it's a solid creature but a clear step below Najeela. Without any warriors, in mono red.. Add some warriors in the mix, or a 5c agro deck and they aren't even close.
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Yeah this is definitly a thing... I can remmeber quite a few times having to trade a courser of kruphix or something beefy with the rabblemaster or face lethal or go to a critical low burn life total.
I do think this guy will be a noteable notch below rabble and hanweir because of his difficulty getting through blockers profitably.
The one exception is when the opponent has a 1/2 or 1/3 on the battlefield, that can stonewall rabblemaster tokens. This guy can make the tokens into 2/2's and have them live. I personally don't run many creatures with those stats but there are a few.
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Red is more than just RDW in my cube, and in those other archetypes, I get far more mileage by including the token-engine creatures.
I don't play 5-color aggro decks either, but I've activated Najeela's ability multiple times.
Najeela 5-0'd two 1v1 Commander leagues yesterday alone... She's one of the 12 most popular competitive 1v1 commanders out there.
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Hero of Bladehold misses the mark by two points
Ya, there are several that are just short. Geist of Saint Traft is also only 2 points short.
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Najeela outclasses Warboss in terms of damage output starting only on t7. These types of cards are absolute removal/blocking magnets - expecting them to swing that many times is a pipe dream. Anything that blocks Warboss also blocks Najeela (granted Najeela trades up more often). You're absolutely right that their value is the weighted average of damage*P(scenario), but the most frequent scenario by far is getting to attack only once or twice, in which case Warboss excels.
More importantly, Warboss leaves behind 3 points of power to Najeela's 1 if either is removed or blocked after the first swing. That's really the key difference.
If, uh, your aggro/midrange decks can regularly put together 5 colored mana, then I guess Najeela is better
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This isn't true. With an attacking Warrior the turn Najeela resolves, she outpaces all of the other alternatives over any number of turns.
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Oops, you’re right. In any case, I don’t want my aggressive red cards to rely on having other cards in play to be better than their counterparts. In my cube, I count 6 warriors that have cmc less than Najeela (and one of them is Wild Nacatl). If that number was 10+ and my aggressive deck could reliably have 2-3 other cheap warriors, sure maybe. But the contribution of that ability of the card is on the whole, very minor, certainly not overcoming a 2 damage point deficit at face value.
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I took issue with you saying that she's way way worse, not that she is worse. I agree that without warrior synergies she is worse.
When calculating the average damage of creatures who's damage increases exponentially, the early turns don't contribute much more to their total average output than the later turns (until lethal damage is reached).
The damage of these creatures are doubling exponentially, so even if the likelyhood of connecting an additional time is halfing exponentially, the amount contributed to average damage from each turn is very comparable...
Connecting zero times is the most common scenario, which is what brings the total average down to levels that are in line with a 3 mana spell. Once the opponent lacks an answer or a blocker for 1 attack, there's a solid chance (25%-40%?) they won't have the proper answer the next one.
Decks that increase the probability the opponent won't have an answer for future turns are decks where najeela excels in. Counterspells, thoughtseize, lots of removal etc. (Ignoring warrior synergies which is her biggest upside)
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Sigh. Again, she doesn't. Warrior interactions are just one of many reasons why she might be better for a specific deck/situation. Each of these creatures has legitimate pros and cons over the other depending on any number of various metrics. If you want to ignore all the other metrics and measure their value by one facet, go ahead. But she's not "worse" from an objective standpoint than any of the other 3 options. If you prefer the other 3, fine. But better/worse can be a measurable thing, and she's not better or worse than any of the others once all the angles are evaluated.
If [damage output in the first two swings] is the only metric you care to analyze them by, then yes. She's tied for 3rd in this group of 4. But if you look at overall clock speed, token production, interactions/synergies, combat threat value or any other number of metrics, she places ahead of Warboss in a number of different ways.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because they're all great. Splashable aggressive beaters that are good in aggro and token strategies and provide lightning-fast clocks if uninterrupted. Hopefully we can all agree on that, and let the rankings among the group fall to personal/playgroup preference.
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540> 360 Powered CubePosed this question for discussion and got back some more possible answers:
Markov Blademaster
Pack Rat (assumes you get your third land)
Figure of Destiny (assumes you make consistent land drops until T5)
Warden of the First Tree (assumes you make consistent land drops until T6)
Vexing Devil (if they don't pay to force it to sacrifice)
Hunted Horror (makes its own blockers, so it definitely feels like this shouldn't count)
Looking at this list, I think it says a lot about why the current red three drop suite is so powerful (including Legion Warboss).
Markov Blademaster (legit interesting, but costs 1RR and invests everything into one creature)
Pack Rat (creates an army of rats all with the ability to continue creating an army of rats)
Figure/Warden (one mana investment, often trades up, provides mana sink)
Vexing Devil (rarely gets you what you want)
Hunted Horror (doesn't count)
Najeela et al are so good because they can legitimately get out of hand and become nearly impossible for your opponent to deal with.
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I think Blademaster is the only one on this list that really counts, as the others require more mana/cards (more than what's required to cast them) to make them work.
But that just helps to illustrate the powerlevel of these 2R creatures. They put out unprecedented amounts of damage. And they do it with a splashable mana cost and with built-in protection against edicts and 1-for-1 removal.
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Definitely. I'm thrilled to add Warboss to Rabble/Garrison/Najeela at 720. Makes for a fun thought exercise though.
Figure of Destiny gets there on T5 as well: 0, 2, 4, 4, 8.
So does Student of Warfare: 0, 3, 3, 8, 8.
Another T6 entrant - Savageborn Hydra: 0, 0, 0, 6, 10, 16.