3UU
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, target opponent puts the top three cards of their library into their graveyard, then you draw a card for each land card put into that graveyard that way.
..........
This is a pretty powerful engine card. It's a reasonably reliable source of repeatable card advantage, and it's also a gindy win condition at the same time. Not for smaller cubes obviously due to some insane competition, but it has some potential in bigger cubes, especially if there's a backdoor mill win condition subtheme floating around. It will dominate control mirrors, I think, and be harder for the opponent to interact with than a planeswalker would be.
You have an 82% chance of drawing at least 1 card, and about a 39% chance of drawing 2 or 3 cards when it triggers.
I feel like it'll compare poorly to e.g. Tidings outside of grindy control mirrors.
Yeah I think drawing 4 once for the same cost is prob better, especially since milling my opponent is only as bad as their deck lets it be. Considering I haven't seen a tidings in a 540 or less in years, I imagine this has tough competition even at bigger builds.
Seems way to slow and grindy for my cube. I feel like I would have been interested at it triggering each upkeep and milling 2 cards, but 3 cards a turn cycle on a 5 mana enchantment just feels way too slow. having an almost 1/5 chance of doing almost nothing nothing (in some cases helping your opponents game plan) feels bad in a format that relies on value an effienty feels bad.
How many 5 mana blue win conditions do we need? Probably one of the tightest spots in cube, it takes serious business to crack into that spot. Mystic Confluence, Bribery, Treachery, Meloku the Clouded Mirror, honorary always-splash-this card Fractured Identity, depending on if you have un-cards there's another set with Arcane Savant and our blue god Clocknapper. Even Tidings, not played by a lot of people, is probably overall better since you get the cards and move on with your life. It would be tough to justify a spot for a card that's really only good in one match up where those other cards are still pretty good there too. The power level on this feels kinda low compared to these options, with 5 mana cards I need to be incentivized to pick & play them and it's tough to find a good reason here.
There's a chance this could make it in my cube, but it's a tough sell. Costing five to wait for your upkeep is harsh, and I'd probably always take Tidings over this unless I already had a mill sub-theme. I love engine cards, but this is slow, and throws a lot of red flags. Still, if you can get it going, it will be bonkers.
I wonder how much a mono blue enchantment that just drew a card on your upkeep would cost. 2UU? Phyrexian Arena is already 1BB, so it couldn't really be 3cmc, and at 4cmc its probably too bad. Maybe 6UU with delve? 8UU? There are some artifacts that come close, but have major downsides.
4CMC planeswalkers that draw a card every turn on a +1 or +0 ability are hard to come by (Jace the Mindscultptor is the only one that comes to mind). An enchantment wouldn't have as much flexibility, but would have more resilience.
This point is probably moot because even a 1UU draw a card every turn enchantment with no downside might not be cubable.
Too slow for the advantage it produces and how much it costs.
Basically unplayable vs Agro , and in control mirrors , while
Obviously strong, it can get countered effeciently by mana leak type effects, or potentially answered a turn or two after its resolved without much impact.
When it gets going on a stable battlefield , can win the game at a pretty fast rate tho. Not a bad card.
I imagine in a slower limited format it would be quite the bomb.
Honden is like this card except more consistent at the cost of flashyness, and I'm not going to maybe win a game off the milling at the cost of fueling my opponent's GY shenanigans.
So my first impression of this card was totally "bleh" but I think you've sold me on at least trying it out.
While Memory Adept strikes me as more potent, this isn't vulnerable to being attacked, and honestly just strikes me as more fun. Creeping out more advantage over time, making your opponent slowly whittle away through mill ... I dig that. I've actually being trying to work out a way for some form of mill to exist in my cube for years. Maybe this could pull it off.
Haven't checked the math but yes, if the probability of drawing one or more cards on one trigger is 82% then the probability of drawing 0 is 18%.
I don't think most cubes want this card. An 18% of getting nothing a turn later makes it not worth it. I realize you get more triggers later but that is a long time to wait for a payoff You might have lost by then and the reason you lose is probably because you spent a turn casting a 5-mana spell that did nothing.
I don't have any experience with cubes that have a mill archetype but maybe it would be fine there.
This was one of my first thoughts but I think the "always loot" maxim applies and the effect is neutral. There is an equal chance that you mill stuff they don't want in their graveyard (their reanimation effects, etc.) as there is that you mill stuff they do want (fatties).
This was one of my first thoughts but I think the "always loot" maxim applies and the effect is neutral. There is an equal chance that you mill stuff they don't want in their graveyard (their reanimation effects, etc.) as there is that you mill stuff they do want (fatties).
Depends on the percentages, as looting is a bit different since I get the choice of what I keep. If there are 2 reanimation spells left and 3+ reanimation targets/things that care about the GY, the math on that never works out in favor of hurting my opponent. At best you have the neutral 'always loot' aspect against decks where they can't use the GY, but that's a poor ceiling.
This was one of my first thoughts but I think the "always loot" maxim applies and the effect is neutral. There is an equal chance that you mill stuff they don't want in their graveyard (their reanimation effects, etc.) as there is that you mill stuff they do want (fatties).
The always loot maxim applies to the person looting. Milling someone else will usually gain them resources. The mill is zero sum in terms of affecting topdeck quality but giving access to flashback spells, recurring creatures and other resources is not.
Hmmm... I agree on the topdeck. The mill could move them closer to something they want in their hand or put something in their graveyard that they would rather have in their hand. And thus is neutral (or zero-sum as you put it).
Is it different for the graveyard? Maybe you are right... You can obv put something there that they want there; which is bad. You could also put something there that they don't want there but maybe this is already part of the topdeck analysis...and so it shouldn't be considered an advantage twice.
If that is true then milling your opponent is always a downside; because it potentially gives them resources (assume you don't know their deck). Unless of course you are going to eventually deck them.
I think I buy it. If decking is not going to happen (assume infinite libraries) then a card that is the same as Lightning Bolt, except it also mills three from your opponent, is strictly worse then actual Lightning Bolt because it could give your opponent resources.
Would you agree with that?
Sorry to hijack the thread with more a general conversation....
As a person who has always had a mill subtheme in my cube, yes, milling is part downside when you're playing against a deck that likes the graveyard. It's part of the equation, and it can certainly bite back. It's always been part of the mill subtheme, and it always will be. BUT the opponent has 32-33 cards in their deck on turn 1 (depending on the first player), and it's easier than it would seem to take that to zero.
I've seen a LOT of games won by mill, and I've also seen a fair amount of flashback cards milled with Hedron Crab. There's no way to separate the two (except with ingest, lol). I'm a lot more willing to accept janky strategies than most of you, but I've found subtheme mill to be a formidable force regardless.
Still, Hedron Crab is a MUCH stronger mill card than this, and most of you think that card is bad, so how could this possibly be good? Like any decent mill card, it's also an advantage machine, but let's not forget the most important thing: this is a five-mana do-nothing enchantment.
Still, Hedron Crab is a MUCH stronger mill card than this, and most of you think that card is bad, so how could this possibly be good?
Because this is a card advantage engine, not a Mill card. The Milling is incidental value that's gifted to a card that draws you like 1.33 extra cards per turn.
And even if it wasn't, being a hard-to-interact-with Enchantment makes this far more reliable than a 0/2 creature that won't reliably win via milling on its own. Crab is a better Mill card in a dedicated Mill deck with a bunch of other like effects. But Patient Rebuilding will kill far more players as the only Mill card in your deck than Crab ever will.
5 mana spell that does not affect the board and it MIGHT draw me a card. I think there are better draw engines. I think with five mana there could be much more powerful things.
3UU
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, target opponent puts the top three cards of their library into their graveyard, then you draw a card for each land card put into that graveyard that way.
..........
This is a pretty powerful engine card. It's a reasonably reliable source of repeatable card advantage, and it's also a gindy win condition at the same time. Not for smaller cubes obviously due to some insane competition, but it has some potential in bigger cubes, especially if there's a backdoor mill win condition subtheme floating around. It will dominate control mirrors, I think, and be harder for the opponent to interact with than a planeswalker would be.
You have an 82% chance of drawing at least 1 card, and about a 39% chance of drawing 2 or 3 cards when it triggers.
Thoughts?
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Yeah I think drawing 4 once for the same cost is prob better, especially since milling my opponent is only as bad as their deck lets it be. Considering I haven't seen a tidings in a 540 or less in years, I imagine this has tough competition even at bigger builds.
Also, is that an 18% chance of drawing 0 cards?
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Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver has impressed me with his/her/its ability to slowly mill an opponent out so Patient Rebuilding could be similar but I'm not convinced.
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4CMC planeswalkers that draw a card every turn on a +1 or +0 ability are hard to come by (Jace the Mindscultptor is the only one that comes to mind). An enchantment wouldn't have as much flexibility, but would have more resilience.
This point is probably moot because even a 1UU draw a card every turn enchantment with no downside might not be cubable.
Basically unplayable vs Agro , and in control mirrors , while
Obviously strong, it can get countered effeciently by mana leak type effects, or potentially answered a turn or two after its resolved without much impact.
When it gets going on a stable battlefield , can win the game at a pretty fast rate tho. Not a bad card.
I imagine in a slower limited format it would be quite the bomb.
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Honden is like this card except more consistent at the cost of flashyness, and I'm not going to maybe win a game off the milling at the cost of fueling my opponent's GY shenanigans.
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While Memory Adept strikes me as more potent, this isn't vulnerable to being attacked, and honestly just strikes me as more fun. Creeping out more advantage over time, making your opponent slowly whittle away through mill ... I dig that. I've actually being trying to work out a way for some form of mill to exist in my cube for years. Maybe this could pull it off.
Haven't checked the math but yes, if the probability of drawing one or more cards on one trigger is 82% then the probability of drawing 0 is 18%.
I don't think most cubes want this card. An 18% of getting nothing a turn later makes it not worth it. I realize you get more triggers later but that is a long time to wait for a payoff You might have lost by then and the reason you lose is probably because you spent a turn casting a 5-mana spell that did nothing.
I don't have any experience with cubes that have a mill archetype but maybe it would be fine there.
This was one of my first thoughts but I think the "always loot" maxim applies and the effect is neutral. There is an equal chance that you mill stuff they don't want in their graveyard (their reanimation effects, etc.) as there is that you mill stuff they do want (fatties).
Depends on the percentages, as looting is a bit different since I get the choice of what I keep. If there are 2 reanimation spells left and 3+ reanimation targets/things that care about the GY, the math on that never works out in favor of hurting my opponent. At best you have the neutral 'always loot' aspect against decks where they can't use the GY, but that's a poor ceiling.
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The always loot maxim applies to the person looting. Milling someone else will usually gain them resources. The mill is zero sum in terms of affecting topdeck quality but giving access to flashback spells, recurring creatures and other resources is not.
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Is it different for the graveyard? Maybe you are right... You can obv put something there that they want there; which is bad. You could also put something there that they don't want there but maybe this is already part of the topdeck analysis...and so it shouldn't be considered an advantage twice.
If that is true then milling your opponent is always a downside; because it potentially gives them resources (assume you don't know their deck). Unless of course you are going to eventually deck them.
I think I buy it. If decking is not going to happen (assume infinite libraries) then a card that is the same as Lightning Bolt, except it also mills three from your opponent, is strictly worse then actual Lightning Bolt because it could give your opponent resources.
Would you agree with that?
Sorry to hijack the thread with more a general conversation....
I've seen a LOT of games won by mill, and I've also seen a fair amount of flashback cards milled with Hedron Crab. There's no way to separate the two (except with ingest, lol). I'm a lot more willing to accept janky strategies than most of you, but I've found subtheme mill to be a formidable force regardless.
Still, Hedron Crab is a MUCH stronger mill card than this, and most of you think that card is bad, so how could this possibly be good? Like any decent mill card, it's also an advantage machine, but let's not forget the most important thing: this is a five-mana do-nothing enchantment.
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Because this is a card advantage engine, not a Mill card. The Milling is incidental value that's gifted to a card that draws you like 1.33 extra cards per turn.
And even if it wasn't, being a hard-to-interact-with Enchantment makes this far more reliable than a 0/2 creature that won't reliably win via milling on its own. Crab is a better Mill card in a dedicated Mill deck with a bunch of other like effects. But Patient Rebuilding will kill far more players as the only Mill card in your deck than Crab ever will.
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Jace, Memory Adept is one of the only cards I've cut from my cube for being too unfun.
My issue with Memory Adept wasn't that he was unfun, but that he was completely binary. Either you won, or he did literally nothing.
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