I don't see why they couldn't print a card that would only target creatures and players, but not planeswalkers. While it would be 100% confusing assuming that every previous card with that exact wording would have been errated, it also opens up design space. If not spells, then definitely abilities. Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily in favor of this wording change at this point. It should have been done with the printing of planeswalkers, not ten years later.
I'll eat my hat if we ever see another "target creature or player" burn spell.
The precon Chandra from the new set has a {+} ability that only hits players and not 'walkers, and the new Boros legend has a trigger that hits creatures and players (but no planeswalkers). So they're already making cards that function differently than they would've pre-errata.
Whenever a white instant or sorcery spell causes you to gain life, Firesong and Sunspeaker deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
Yeah, I forgot about that card. Salting my hat now. I still don't think we'll see it on a spell, and I am surprised that card is not just "any target." I don't think anyone was complaining PW's were too weak to burn lol.
Yeah that's the thing I find most troubling about the change. My M11 Lightning Bolt says "target creature or player" but can hit Planeswakers, while Firesong and Sunspeaker says the exact same thing but can't. I get the Oracle text will be different, but I'm not a fan of having cards that say one thing and actually mean another.
Rampaging Ferocidon is another cube card affected. You can also now Lightning Bolt your own planeswalker, if that's something you were into.
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IMO it's a horrible choice. Was the wording really that confusing? You can redirect damage from players to planeswalkers--seems pretty cut and dry.
It is very cut and dry for experienced players like us. It's pretty dang confusing for new players, and a lot of changes are made for that group (see also getting rid of the "mana pool" language on cards).
I have to imagine being told that old cards can actually target PW's even though they don't say they can will be more confusing, but I imagine they have data showing that newer players interact far more with new cards.
That being said, this is the first time I'm seriously considering just ignoring a rules change for our group. PWs are already very good, and I have no interest in weakening a bunch of cards (purphoros killing PW's literally came up in our last draft) for a group that doesn't have any confusion about how the redirect rule works. I'll need to think about it.
So coming back this I am still confused.
In this article Eli lists stuff that won't affect planeswalkers, and in his first header a bunch of cards that will be able to target planeswalkers (if I understand correctly?) but in the case of Ajani Vengeant, for example, the Oracle text currently reads: target creature or player with no reference to planeswalkers. Am I to gather that his text only hits players or creatures now? And that if a card also affects a planeswalker, it will simply use: any target?
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Ajani Vengeant will receive errata to allow for the "any target" wording. This card is listed in the list of cards in Eli's article detailing which ones will receive errata.
None of the Oracle Text is updated yet because the Oracle Text of cards is the "current" card text. They want these changes to take effect for the release of Dominaria so the Oracle Text will be updated at that time.
My playgroup started using the new redirection rules ahead of the Dominaria release and actually had a "feel-good interaction" come up on Friday night.
Boros Aggro (with Sword of War and Peace and Memory Jar on board) was facing off against Azorius Control with an active Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Jace, Telepath Unbound. The Boros deck main phase cracked the Jar, played Brimaz, King of Oreskos from the new hand, then hit Firestorm pitching 5 cards to nuke both 'walkers, the opponent's face, and a couple hostile utility critters. The control deck still ended up clutching the victory with a perfectly timed Path to Exile but it was pretty neat to see how much stronger Firestorm is under the new rules.
Some interesting or relevant changes:
* As expected, Ash Zealot, Harsh Mentor, Ankh of Mishra, etc, can only hit the player that caused the trigger, not that player's planeswalker.
* Blightning can target a player or planeswalker. If the later, the controller of the planeswalker discards. This gets around hexproof etc on the player. Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker's third ability also works this way.
* Chain Lightning targeting a planeswalker works like targeting a creature: the walker's controller may copy it.
* "Deals damage to defending player" (ex: Myr Battlesphere) becomes "deals damage to the player or planeswalker this creature is attacking". And so Hellrider works this way: whenever one of your creatures attacks, Hellrider deals 1 damage to the player or planeswalker that creature is attacking.
Hellrider's damage being divisible between a walker and a player when you have multiple attackers is a small boost to an already great card. Vial Smasher the Fierce also got some sexy errata that might merit further discussion of a card that I thing was borderline for medium sized cubes already.
Hellrider's damage being divisible between a walker and a player when you have multiple attackers is a small boost to an already great card. Vial Smasher the Fierce also got some sexy errata that might merit further discussion of a card that I thing was borderline for medium sized cubes already.
Unless I'm missing something, but Vial Smasher just stay the same with the errata since you could've re-directed the damage anyways (barring Healing Salve effects, but that also got the Lightning Bolt errata treatment).
Year 25 of the game's existence might not have been the best time for this.
Or is it the perfect time. Right before they release Errata Masters. Lol.
@Steve you may be right. I thought you couldn't redirect with it before, but now I'm unsure. Rules questions are not my forte.
You could.
The old rule was: If a source you control would deal noncombat damage to an opponent, you could redirect the damage to a planeswalker controlled by that player.
it was pretty neat to see how much stronger Firestorm is under the new rules.
You're 100% right about this, by the way. Due to the nature of how Firestorm worked and how it was crippled by the redirection rule before, it's probably the single card that improves the most in value based off the new rules change. I've always been a fan of Firestorm, but I wanted you to know that you're the reason I'm re-testing the card again now. It's a great point you brought up here.
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Yeah, I wasn't saying we won't see "deal damage to target player," just that I didn't expect to see "creature or player" excluding walkers.
Yeah, I forgot about that card. Salting my hat now. I still don't think we'll see it on a spell, and I am surprised that card is not just "any target." I don't think anyone was complaining PW's were too weak to burn lol.
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Rampaging Ferocidon is another cube card affected. You can also now Lightning Bolt your own planeswalker, if that's something you were into.
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Pretty sure it was mostly for purposes related to the online game. Not long ago they barely wanted to print the word "planeswalker" in text boxes.
It is very cut and dry for experienced players like us. It's pretty dang confusing for new players, and a lot of changes are made for that group (see also getting rid of the "mana pool" language on cards).
I have to imagine being told that old cards can actually target PW's even though they don't say they can will be more confusing, but I imagine they have data showing that newer players interact far more with new cards.
That being said, this is the first time I'm seriously considering just ignoring a rules change for our group. PWs are already very good, and I have no interest in weakening a bunch of cards (purphoros killing PW's literally came up in our last draft) for a group that doesn't have any confusion about how the redirect rule works. I'll need to think about it.
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In this article Eli lists stuff that won't affect planeswalkers, and in his first header a bunch of cards that will be able to target planeswalkers (if I understand correctly?) but in the case of Ajani Vengeant, for example, the Oracle text currently reads: target creature or player with no reference to planeswalkers. Am I to gather that his text only hits players or creatures now? And that if a card also affects a planeswalker, it will simply use: any target?
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None of the Oracle Text is updated yet because the Oracle Text of cards is the "current" card text. They want these changes to take effect for the release of Dominaria so the Oracle Text will be updated at that time.
Boros Aggro (with Sword of War and Peace and Memory Jar on board) was facing off against Azorius Control with an active Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Jace, Telepath Unbound. The Boros deck main phase cracked the Jar, played Brimaz, King of Oreskos from the new hand, then hit Firestorm pitching 5 cards to nuke both 'walkers, the opponent's face, and a couple hostile utility critters. The control deck still ended up clutching the victory with a perfectly timed Path to Exile but it was pretty neat to see how much stronger Firestorm is under the new rules.
Still hate them from an aesthetic standpoint but
Some interesting or relevant changes:
* As expected, Ash Zealot, Harsh Mentor, Ankh of Mishra, etc, can only hit the player that caused the trigger, not that player's planeswalker.
* Blightning can target a player or planeswalker. If the later, the controller of the planeswalker discards. This gets around hexproof etc on the player. Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker's third ability also works this way.
* Chain Lightning targeting a planeswalker works like targeting a creature: the walker's controller may copy it.
* "Deals damage to defending player" (ex: Myr Battlesphere) becomes "deals damage to the player or planeswalker this creature is attacking". And so Hellrider works this way: whenever one of your creatures attacks, Hellrider deals 1 damage to the player or planeswalker that creature is attacking.
Unless I'm missing something, but Vial Smasher just stay the same with the errata since you could've re-directed the damage anyways (barring Healing Salve effects, but that also got the Lightning Bolt errata treatment).
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Or is it the perfect time. Right before they release Errata Masters. Lol.
@Steve you may be right. I thought you couldn't redirect with it before, but now I'm unsure. Rules questions are not my forte.
You could.
The old rule was: If a source you control would deal noncombat damage to an opponent, you could redirect the damage to a planeswalker controlled by that player.
You're 100% right about this, by the way. Due to the nature of how Firestorm worked and how it was crippled by the redirection rule before, it's probably the single card that improves the most in value based off the new rules change. I've always been a fan of Firestorm, but I wanted you to know that you're the reason I'm re-testing the card again now. It's a great point you brought up here.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic