@Visserdrix I think they are trying to make future templates as succinct as possible, and while making planeswalkers "players" would help with that, its still confusing when you look at Dreadbore. Would they, in your example world, use the term "planeswalker" here and only here? They can't print "destroy target player" in black-border. Yet.
Another potential option for those who would like to ignore this ruling, temporarily or permanently as a house rule, would be to instead errata all "each opponent" to "target opponent" in their cube, so that you can follow this rule, but save MOST of the cards hit hardest here. (assuming you don't play multiplayer)
To each their own regarding house rules. However it could make future rankings/evaluations problematic if some people are allowing Purphoros, Earthquake, etc. to deal damage to walkers and some aren't.
If a card is printed in 5 years that says "This spell deals 5 damage to target player." In paper form (the important kind of magic) that card will have THE SAME TEXT as Lava Axe but will mean something DIFFERENT.
If a card is printed in 5 years that says "This spell deals 5 damage to target player." In paper form (the important kind of magic) that card will have THE SAME TEXT as Lava Axe but will mean something DIFFERENT.
This is bad.
Thank god no one is playing lava ax
But seriously, as much as I get it, I can imagine they've thought of these scenarios to some degree.
Seems like another solution would have just been to functionally nerf all the old cards that say "target X" to only mean "target X" and not "X or planeswalker". Planeswalkers would get stronger (and red would get worse) until new cards are printed that restore balance, which is something Wizards likely considered and decided against. But then they wouldn't have to errata hundreds of cards! This change really sucks for people who play with old cards and don't want to replace them for whatever reason (nostalgia, art, cost, etc). I personally don't appreciate having to shell out for new cardboard that doesn't do anything for my cube except to alleviate rules confusion that Wizards themselves created!
Edit: and that's assuming they even reprint the errata'd cards at some point. Which could be years or never.
If a card is printed in 5 years that says "This spell deals 5 damage to target player." In paper form (the important kind of magic) that card will have THE SAME TEXT as Lava Axe but will mean something DIFFERENT.
This is bad.
Is it really that big a deal? I have a bunch of old cards in my cube with old, out of date text and some of them take a lot more explaining than "This card is pre-Domanaria rule change". Explaining that my old copy of mystical tutor can't get lands because lands are not mana sources (despite being a source of mana).
New players are unlikely to encounter old wording cards in a sanctioned play once the rotate out of standard unless they are jumping straight into Modern or Legacy. If they are playing a at a kitchen table it is pretty easy to explain the situation if/when it comes up.
What I find more awkward introducing someone to cube after they started playing after the rules change and having to explain that when a damage targets a player it can hit a planes walker instead, but it wont be a major issue I'm sure.
In your scenario, the cards in question have a little more obvious qualities about them that would suggest a need to look up the rules. In my version, the text of these cards could and probably will look identical in your hands, which IMO is horrendous terri-bad for the stable future of the game. They've never errata'd like this before, it's always been a case by case basis, or something completing encompassing and all-reaching, like making planeswalker legendary. Which was also dumb. And no one wanted. And they didn't seem to ask anyone first.
You're right that most new players won't hit this barrier in the first few sessions of playing. I believe the passage from beginner player to intermediate, more involved player is the hardest and most crucial part of community-building, and this is one more example of brick wall rules confusion that deters those people from putting in the time to know the game well enough to play Highlander or Modern or EDH. It isn't even slightly intuitive, like the legendary planeswalker rule. Every case demands clarification. Why does the text on the cards not matter anymore?
There's at least 2 other simpler, cleaner methods to change this rule that members of the community have suggested across YouTube and these forums, and it's just getting hard to believe this change isn't maliciously intended to push players towards digital or newer card versions, or aggressively pushed through development without so much as a brainstorm session.
Woo okay I'm getting a little heated. Planeswalkers are such a difficult thing to cube design with. Why must they be so FUN AND COOL
This rule change is no big news for me. It felt like they were going to do this at some point. The Lightning Strike template in MTG Arena made it clear to me this rule change was coming. I don't think this is a bad thing. In fact, I believe it's going to be a good change as the planeswalker rule was more confusing.
Once the cards get errata'd I will check to see what card can and can't affect planeswalkers. This will likely not affect their position in the cube, but just so I can memorize it for my playgroup.
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In your scenario, the cards in question have a little more obvious qualities about them that would suggest a need to look up the rules. In my version, the text of these cards could and probably will look identical in your hands, which IMO is horrendous terri-bad for the stable future of the game. They've never errata'd like this before, it's always been a case by case basis, or something completing encompassing and all-reaching, like making planeswalker legendary. Which was also dumb. And no one wanted. And they didn't seem to ask anyone first.
You're right that most new players won't hit this barrier in the first few sessions of playing. I believe the passage from beginner player to intermediate, more involved player is the hardest and most crucial part of community-building, and this is one more example of brick wall rules confusion that deters those people from putting in the time to know the game well enough to play Highlander or Modern or EDH. It isn't even slightly intuitive, like the legendary planeswalker rule. Every case demands clarification. Why does the text on the cards not matter anymore?
There's at least 2 other simpler, cleaner methods to change this rule that members of the community have suggested across YouTube and these forums, and it's just getting hard to believe this change isn't maliciously intended to push players towards digital or newer card versions, or aggressively pushed through development without so much as a brainstorm session.
Woo okay I'm getting a little heated. Planeswalkers are such a difficult thing to cube design with. Why must they be so FUN AND COOL
... I had a much better reply but my internet ate it, what follows is me trying to hit all my talking points.
I think calling the rules change a "brick wall rules confusion that deters those people from putting in the time to know the game" is way over stating the issue. I think this actually makes things cleaner because cards will no longer have hidden modes, explaining how earthquake often gets an odd look from newer players when you first explain that it can pick off walkers because it doesn't say that anywhere on the card. With this rules change they are removing a rule you had to keep in your head in favour of just spelling it out on the card going forward.
Technically speaking the card text actually doesn't matter, all cards are assumed to have the oracle text. Textless promos and foreign cards are already much worse for newer players. You already need to consult oracle for creature types and some of them can really mess you up, like not knowing sundering titan is a golem when you cast Precursor Golem. It takes like 5-10 minutes to explain to a new player what oracle is and that some cards printed pre-2018 are worded differently, if that is enough to put them off magic then they really must not have been that into magic.
Will it really sell more cards? I don't get this logic; new players will buy the same amount as always because they are new and don't care, older players will buy the same amount because they can still use old printings of the cards. If Wizards had banned using old cards in tournaments along side the change I would be right there with you in my shiniest tin foil hat but they don't seem to have any plans to do it.
We haven't seen how this change effects design yet, it could be that this option is the best fit for some new cards in the pipeline. The planeswalker redirection rule was a decent retrofit for burn that lasted for 10(?) years but it narrows what burn spells can be because they are also planeswalker removal, this change opens the door for a non-walker bolt and makes low loyalty walkers a bit more printable since random points of damage wont kill them.
Again, sorry if this post is a bit unfocoused I was trying to remember as much of my lost post as possible.
That's super unfortunate about your hungry internet, hopefully it is quelled.
In my opinion, explaining once to your player base that anytime damage hits a player, it can hit a planeswalker, is much easier and quicker than having to go through a card-by-card basis and memorize 4 different versions of ways spells damage players to figure out if a card can hit a planeswalker. It's much messier!
My point on this difficulty spike was not intended to sound like this is the sole reason people will quit. I should've stated that this BEHAVIOR is what worries me. This pattern of rules changing whenever they really want to print a stupid Chandra that can hit players, creatures, AND planeswalkers now is a little tone-deaf. Believe me, it bothers me too that I can't kill Dark Confidant, downticked Torch of Defiance, AND hit their dome with Flames of the Firebrand, so this /kind/ of change is important to open neat card designs, like a Branching Bolt for creature/walker. I just think this /exact/ change is extremely ungraceful, a quality wizards has in spades when it comes to the actual game design. So I'm shocked. If 3 or 4 more of these types of changes happen, I absolutely believe it will (slowly) lead to less people diving deep, becoming judges, owning cubes, opening stores. It's not as bad as I make it sound, but it IS unhealthy.
It's time I honestly admit I am also a little jazzed that my old Lighting Bolt signed by LSV, Marshall Sutcliffe, Rich Hagan, Gaby Spartz, and Kenji Egashira now has Oracle text :3
Has anyone done the legwork on popular cube cards that are adversely effected by this change. I guess it is mainly red but I feel like there are a few cards in other colours that I am blanking on.
That's super unfortunate about your hungry internet, hopefully it is quelled.
In my opinion, explaining once to your player base that anytime damage hits a player, it can hit a planeswalker, is much easier and quicker than having to go through a card-by-card basis and memorize 4 different versions of ways spells damage players to figure out if a card can hit a planeswalker. It's much messier!
My point on this difficulty spike was not intended to sound like this is the sole reason people will quit. I should've stated that this BEHAVIOR is what worries me. This pattern of rules changing whenever they really want to print a stupid Chandra that can hit players, creatures, AND planeswalkers now is a little tone-deaf. Believe me, it bothers me too that I can't kill Dark Confidant, downticked Torch of Defiance, AND hit their dome with Flames of the Firebrand, so this /kind/ of change is important to open neat card designs, like a Branching Bolt for creature/walker. I just think this /exact/ change is extremely ungraceful, a quality wizards has in spades when it comes to the actual game design. So I'm shocked. If 3 or 4 more of these types of changes happen, I absolutely believe it will (slowly) lead to less people diving deep, becoming judges, owning cubes, opening stores. It's not as bad as I make it sound, but it IS unhealthy.
It's time I honestly admit I am also a little jazzed that my old Lighting Bolt signed by LSV, Marshall Sutcliffe, Rich Hagan, Gaby Spartz, and Kenji Egashira now has Oracle text :3
It just feels like this is another thing in a long list of things that "WILL BE THE DEATH OF MAGIC!!". I see your point that too many rules overhauls in a short period of time is bad for the game but isn't this the first major overhaul since the big 2010 one (although I guess the Legendary Rule update in 2013 was a big deal to some people? We have also known this was coming for a while now so it wasn't exactly a shock.
This might be a personal quirk but knowing a games rules used to function differently would encourage me to take a deep dive, and has. I find knowing how the removal of damage on the stack or mana burn changed the game pretty interesting. Not saying that is typical, but hey who doesn't like anecdotal evidence?
I disagree you have to learn it on a card by card basis; enfranchised players will know about the rules changes and will pick it up in 5 minutes, new players joining the game will not know it any other way until it comes up. We all learned to play magic so I have faith new players will as well. I will admit the damage calculated from players/objects part of it is a bit weird (and I guess I'm being selfish here) won't really matter or come up for me or a lot of players, off the top of my head Price of Progress is the main Legacy relevant card the change nerfs but in my limited knowledge it isn't often killing walkers, and I can't think of much it changes in modern.
Admittedly I don't play any constructed magic and only draft boosters a handful of times a year, 90% of my Magic playing is commander or cube with friends. I get this is probably a lot more impact of a change if you play other formats but for me and my group I am ok with the changes and don't see it hurting magic ant more than the 2010 change or the 2013 legend change... hopefully I don't have to eat my words if the sky is actually falling and this kills Magic, that would be just my luck.
Commonly played cube cards that are adversely effected by the changes:
Earthquake
Rolling Earthquake
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Harsh Mentor
Sulfuric Vortex
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Fiery Confluence
Hazoret the Fervent
Hellrider
Purphoros, God of the Forge
On the contrary, a few dividible burn spells get better (unless I’m missing something)
Firestorm (this is actually quite the buff, just realized it)
Arc Trail
Arc Lightning
Flames of the Firebrand
Inferno Titan
I don't think any of those cards are impacted enough (positively or negatively) to change their cube-worthiness. It'll be a bummer when the interaction shows up, but it's not going to be a deal breaker.
Sword of War and Peace may be impacted too, if the damage doesn't get errata'd (since it's contingent on player-centric information).
Not excited about how this will play out, but since most of the people that I play with actively play at least one other format, we'll be using it. I don't want to make players keep track of different rulesets.
Same as wtwlf, I am excited that my Alpha Bolt will be correctly worded (or at more correctly worded). I'm not super concerned about the loss of some flexibility on cards, but I guess we'll see how it plays out.
I wish wizards would add something to the cards or change the look of it to somehow help people realize if the cards have the correct text on them or not. Even it was just a cool little symbol in a corner with an arrow or something
in my experience most people already say "i'll bolt your lili", instead of "i'll bolt you, and redirect to lili" so i'm not worried about cards like magma jet not saying creature/player/planeswalker. Theres no real change there.
The only change is with "each player" and I guess the best way to remember is if it doesn't say target it can't target a planeswalker. No real different from remembering that wrath of god kills things like true name nemesis because it doesnt target.
however, I will definitely favour oracle correct printings when they come up, and I really hope they don't print new stuff that says "target creature or player" that really does mean only creature or player, and not planeswalkers as well.
I agree it would be a bad idea, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Ehhh, given the recent history with the limited cards generally being creatures or PW's, I doubt we'd see one that excluded PW's. I fully expect going forward all we'll see is target creature, target creature or PW, target player, or any target. I'll eat my hat if we ever see another "target creature or player" burn spell.
I agree it would be a bad idea, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Ehhh, given the recent history with the limited cards generally being creatures or PW's, I doubt we'd see one that excluded PW's. I fully expect going forward all we'll see is target creature, target creature or PW, target player, or any target. I'll eat my hat if we ever see another "target creature or player" burn spell.
Firesong and Sunspeaker invite you to start preparing hat recipes. I'm sure they'll put it on a spell eventually.
I'll eat my hat if we ever see another "target creature or player" burn spell.
The precon Chandra from the new set has a {+} ability that only hits players and not 'walkers, and the new Boros legend has a trigger that hits creatures and players (but no planeswalkers). So they're already making cards that function differently than they would've pre-errata.
I really think cube has the most to lose here. We have a very high concentration of walkers, old cards, and odd cards. My assumption is that everything that says target opponent, each opponent, or opponent will no longer be able to hit walkers. I am am going to be reevaluating some additional walker answers like Vraska's contempt.
Guttersnipe is hurt by this a quite a bit, could be I'm just a bit salty because I lost a game because of it but he certainly was a lot worse in that game because of the change.
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
If a card is printed in 5 years that says "This spell deals 5 damage to target player." In paper form (the important kind of magic) that card will have THE SAME TEXT as Lava Axe but will mean something DIFFERENT.
This is bad.
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
Thank god no one is playing lava ax
But seriously, as much as I get it, I can imagine they've thought of these scenarios to some degree.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Edit: and that's assuming they even reprint the errata'd cards at some point. Which could be years or never.
Is it really that big a deal? I have a bunch of old cards in my cube with old, out of date text and some of them take a lot more explaining than "This card is pre-Domanaria rule change". Explaining that my old copy of mystical tutor can't get lands because lands are not mana sources (despite being a source of mana).
New players are unlikely to encounter old wording cards in a sanctioned play once the rotate out of standard unless they are jumping straight into Modern or Legacy. If they are playing a at a kitchen table it is pretty easy to explain the situation if/when it comes up.
What I find more awkward introducing someone to cube after they started playing after the rules change and having to explain that when a damage targets a player it can hit a planes walker instead, but it wont be a major issue I'm sure.
You're right that most new players won't hit this barrier in the first few sessions of playing. I believe the passage from beginner player to intermediate, more involved player is the hardest and most crucial part of community-building, and this is one more example of brick wall rules confusion that deters those people from putting in the time to know the game well enough to play Highlander or Modern or EDH. It isn't even slightly intuitive, like the legendary planeswalker rule. Every case demands clarification. Why does the text on the cards not matter anymore?
There's at least 2 other simpler, cleaner methods to change this rule that members of the community have suggested across YouTube and these forums, and it's just getting hard to believe this change isn't maliciously intended to push players towards digital or newer card versions, or aggressively pushed through development without so much as a brainstorm session.
Woo okay I'm getting a little heated. Planeswalkers are such a difficult thing to cube design with. Why must they be so FUN AND COOL
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
Once the cards get errata'd I will check to see what card can and can't affect planeswalkers. This will likely not affect their position in the cube, but just so I can memorize it for my playgroup.
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
My
540> 360 Powered Cube... I had a much better reply but my internet ate it, what follows is me trying to hit all my talking points.
I think calling the rules change a "brick wall rules confusion that deters those people from putting in the time to know the game" is way over stating the issue. I think this actually makes things cleaner because cards will no longer have hidden modes, explaining how earthquake often gets an odd look from newer players when you first explain that it can pick off walkers because it doesn't say that anywhere on the card. With this rules change they are removing a rule you had to keep in your head in favour of just spelling it out on the card going forward.
Technically speaking the card text actually doesn't matter, all cards are assumed to have the oracle text. Textless promos and foreign cards are already much worse for newer players. You already need to consult oracle for creature types and some of them can really mess you up, like not knowing sundering titan is a golem when you cast Precursor Golem. It takes like 5-10 minutes to explain to a new player what oracle is and that some cards printed pre-2018 are worded differently, if that is enough to put them off magic then they really must not have been that into magic.
Will it really sell more cards? I don't get this logic; new players will buy the same amount as always because they are new and don't care, older players will buy the same amount because they can still use old printings of the cards. If Wizards had banned using old cards in tournaments along side the change I would be right there with you in my shiniest tin foil hat but they don't seem to have any plans to do it.
We haven't seen how this change effects design yet, it could be that this option is the best fit for some new cards in the pipeline. The planeswalker redirection rule was a decent retrofit for burn that lasted for 10(?) years but it narrows what burn spells can be because they are also planeswalker removal, this change opens the door for a non-walker bolt and makes low loyalty walkers a bit more printable since random points of damage wont kill them.
Again, sorry if this post is a bit unfocoused I was trying to remember as much of my lost post as possible.
In my opinion, explaining once to your player base that anytime damage hits a player, it can hit a planeswalker, is much easier and quicker than having to go through a card-by-card basis and memorize 4 different versions of ways spells damage players to figure out if a card can hit a planeswalker. It's much messier!
My point on this difficulty spike was not intended to sound like this is the sole reason people will quit. I should've stated that this BEHAVIOR is what worries me. This pattern of rules changing whenever they really want to print a stupid Chandra that can hit players, creatures, AND planeswalkers now is a little tone-deaf. Believe me, it bothers me too that I can't kill Dark Confidant, downticked Torch of Defiance, AND hit their dome with Flames of the Firebrand, so this /kind/ of change is important to open neat card designs, like a Branching Bolt for creature/walker. I just think this /exact/ change is extremely ungraceful, a quality wizards has in spades when it comes to the actual game design. So I'm shocked. If 3 or 4 more of these types of changes happen, I absolutely believe it will (slowly) lead to less people diving deep, becoming judges, owning cubes, opening stores. It's not as bad as I make it sound, but it IS unhealthy.
It's time I honestly admit I am also a little jazzed that my old Lighting Bolt signed by LSV, Marshall Sutcliffe, Rich Hagan, Gaby Spartz, and Kenji Egashira now has Oracle text :3
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
It just feels like this is another thing in a long list of things that "WILL BE THE DEATH OF MAGIC!!". I see your point that too many rules overhauls in a short period of time is bad for the game but isn't this the first major overhaul since the big 2010 one (although I guess the Legendary Rule update in 2013 was a big deal to some people? We have also known this was coming for a while now so it wasn't exactly a shock.
This might be a personal quirk but knowing a games rules used to function differently would encourage me to take a deep dive, and has. I find knowing how the removal of damage on the stack or mana burn changed the game pretty interesting. Not saying that is typical, but hey who doesn't like anecdotal evidence?
I disagree you have to learn it on a card by card basis; enfranchised players will know about the rules changes and will pick it up in 5 minutes, new players joining the game will not know it any other way until it comes up. We all learned to play magic so I have faith new players will as well. I will admit the damage calculated from players/objects part of it is a bit weird (and I guess I'm being selfish here) won't really matter or come up for me or a lot of players, off the top of my head Price of Progress is the main Legacy relevant card the change nerfs but in my limited knowledge it isn't often killing walkers, and I can't think of much it changes in modern.
Admittedly I don't play any constructed magic and only draft boosters a handful of times a year, 90% of my Magic playing is commander or cube with friends. I get this is probably a lot more impact of a change if you play other formats but for me and my group I am ok with the changes and don't see it hurting magic ant more than the 2010 change or the 2013 legend change... hopefully I don't have to eat my words if the sky is actually falling and this kills Magic, that would be just my luck.
Earthquake
Rolling Earthquake
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Harsh Mentor
Sulfuric Vortex
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Fiery Confluence
Hazoret the Fervent
Hellrider
Purphoros, God of the Forge
On the contrary, a few dividible burn spells get better (unless I’m missing something)
Firestorm (this is actually quite the buff, just realized it)
Arc Trail
Arc Lightning
Flames of the Firebrand
Inferno Titan
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Sword of War and Peace may be impacted too, if the damage doesn't get errata'd (since it's contingent on player-centric information).
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Same as wtwlf, I am excited that my Alpha Bolt will be correctly worded (or at more correctly worded). I'm not super concerned about the loss of some flexibility on cards, but I guess we'll see how it plays out.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
The only change is with "each player" and I guess the best way to remember is if it doesn't say target it can't target a planeswalker. No real different from remembering that wrath of god kills things like true name nemesis because it doesnt target.
however, I will definitely favour oracle correct printings when they come up, and I really hope they don't print new stuff that says "target creature or player" that really does mean only creature or player, and not planeswalkers as well.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Ehhh, given the recent history with the limited cards generally being creatures or PW's, I doubt we'd see one that excluded PW's. I fully expect going forward all we'll see is target creature, target creature or PW, target player, or any target. I'll eat my hat if we ever see another "target creature or player" burn spell.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
The precon Chandra from the new set has a {+} ability that only hits players and not 'walkers, and the new Boros legend has a trigger that hits creatures and players (but no planeswalkers). So they're already making cards that function differently than they would've pre-errata.
From Chandra, Bold Pyromancer:
{+1}: Add RR. Chandra, Bold Pyromancer deals 2 damage to target player.
From Firesong and Sunspeaker:
Whenever a white instant or sorcery spell causes you to gain life, Firesong and Sunspeaker deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Negatively: atarka's commande
Positively: Aurelia's Fury
splitting the damage on an X spell is actually pretty sweet for aurelia's fury.