MTG Salvation

I did not find a thread for this topic. Let me know if there's one, because surely a lot of people thought about this.

I'm looking to explore a new archetype for my powered cube that that rewards you for discarding cards. There's usually a good density of looting/rummaging/cycling in most cubes and I've noticed a few cards (incl spoiled recently: Marauding Mako Captain Howler, Sea Scourge) that reward you for discarding. I like that there is little investment and only a few parasitic cards needed to support the archetype and it rewards you for something you already want to be doing - digging through your deck.

The question I have for those of you who tried it:

• Is this a fun mechanic to play?
• Is it strong enough for powered cubes?
• Which colors does this fit into?
• What are the payoffs I must include? So far I'm thinking Ivora, Insatiable Heir, Marauding Mako, Bag of Holding, Containment Construct, Conspiracy Theorist and Currency Converter
• What are the best enablers? Frantic Search, Kiora, the Rising Tide, Faithless Looting etc...

I've been playing it for a bit now, and I think it's really good. It's an under-explored archetype, but it has legs.

I'm playing:

• Scrounging Skyray
  
• The Raven Man
  
• Marauding Mako
  
• Conspiracy Theorist
  
• Inti, Seneschal of the Sun
  
• Ivora, Insatiable Heir
  
• Rielle, the Everwise
  
• Containment Construct
  
• Currency Converter

As cards that care about discard, plus Hollow One, a few Madness creatures and other cards that want to be in the 'yard that benefit from being discarded.

There are so many cards that discard, that finding enablers isn't hard. Looting, Rummaging, Cycling, and discard payments are abundant, and they all power up these discard-matters cards.

I've really been enjoying it so far.

I think it depends on which direction you want to take it.

- I've found interestingly the best enablers for the Blue/Red shell is Treasure Cruise / Bedlam Reveler where you can easily loot/ rummage / draw into your payoff. The main reason Treasure Cruise is so busted in constructed is because in a deck with Cruise/ Serum Visions etc, the each Cruise can dig into the next Cruise, essentially guaranteeing that you'll bury your opponent.

(Not saying the other cards wtwlf listed aren't good)

However, in terms of fun, I've always hated having to draft UR tempo/ spells. The main problem I've found is the best has one of the worst win/loss percentages between play-draw and the color pair historically mulligans relatively poorly compared to other color pairs.

It's one of those archetypes that if your goal is to get 7-X on Arena/ 4-0 in Drafts etc. to qualify for a higher tournament, then I would go for it.

- I also added Vengevine into my cube, primarily to make it such that Survival of the Fittest / Fauna Shaman aren't purely a reanimator card, but they have potential in midrange creature decks.

Treasure Cruise and Vengevine are cards I want IN my Ivora decks. I don't think they're at odds with one another. Discard-matters as an archetype is different than just "put cards into your yard for delve", and those specific cards are the ones I think the OP was trying to dive into.

Supporting discard-matters cards encourages the use of interchangeable parts that only serves to bolster the graveyard matters decks, reanimator, delirium, recursion, etc. Basically, if you're supporting those kinds of decks, those same enablers can serve as a foundation for a completely new archetype that centers around getting a direct benefit from discarding. I've been playing around with that archetype, and it's quite good.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

Treasure Cruise and Vengevine are cards I want IN my Ivora decks. I don't think they're at odds with one another. Discard-matters as an archetype is different than just "put cards into your yard for delve", and those specific cards are the ones I think the OP was trying to dive into.

Supporting discard-matters cards encourages the use of interchangeable parts that only serves to bolster the graveyard matters decks, reanimator, delirium, recursion, etc. Basically, if you're supporting those kinds of decks, those same enablers can serve as a foundation for a completely new archetype that centers around getting a direct benefit from discarding. I've been playing around with that archetype, and it's quite good.

+1 to everything here.

And you're right about Survival of the Fittest. It went from a very niche card to an absolute monster by supporting more graveyard-centric archetypes. The discard-matters shell can do some gross things with that card.

I am absolutely on-board with this.

Since Hollow One was brought up, this is also an opportunity for me to talk about the amazing Goblin Lore. Although in case nobody's hardcore enough for that one, I am genuinely curious if people think Cathartic Reunion is worth considering, especially if they already play other 2-mana rummage spells in red (e.g. Demand Answers, Bitter Reunion, Invasion of Mercadia).

Uh oh, I totally forgot about Madness. I'll probably throw in Anje's Ravager which is enabler and payoff at the same time.

Including discard rewards actually seems to make Treasure Cruise weaker, because many of them exile or allow you to play the discarded card. That is unless I also add more discard support (which was not my original goal). I'll think about that.

- I also added Vengevine into my cube, primarily to make it such that Survival of the Fittest / Fauna Shaman aren't purely a reanimator card, but they have potential in midrange creature decks.

I expected natural fit for color pairing is Izzet with all the looting and rummaging going on, but thanks for pointing out green. I recently cut Fauna Shaman, I'll add it again.

I don't know how I feel about The Raven Man. It can help in the archetype, but is also punishing when the opponent has it.

Quote from Chestersson »

Including discard rewards actually seems to make Treasure Cruise weaker, because many of them exile or allow you to play the discarded card.

I think it's important for the exile-clause ones to be a "may" ability for this reason. I love Currency Converter because I don't have to lose access to my discarded cards. Same goes for all the support cards on my list, actually. I don't like Bag of Holding because the exile is mandatory. But there's a lot of cards I'm discarding that I may not want to exile, and not just because of delve. The "may" clause is big, IMO.

Anje's Ravager is a beastly card in these shells, for sure. Both of the 0 Rootwallas are good too, and gain stock if you're playing Vengevine (especially w/ Survival).

Caleb Gannon's powered synergy cube has given me lots of inspiration before, and that list not only includes many of these cards you two are discussing, but also a couple others. One that stands out to me is Ox of Agonas. Has anyone ever tested this card? As yet another creature that can semi-wheel and is fueled by the graveyard, it might be another one worth looking at. There might be a few other nuggets in this list as well.

Another very strong card I want to call out is Abhorrent Oculus has just been a monster in both Standard / Legacy.

I've found if I was facing a deck playing Abhorrent, I often have to leave open removal or else I could easily get snowballed on the following turn.

I'm curious, has anyone tested Shadowgrange Archfiend or Big Game Hunter?

I always felt cards like Basking Rootwalla was way too low impact even if it was discarded.

Quote from steve_man »

Quote from AlanYuan »

I'm curious, has anyone tested Shadowgrange Archfiend or Big Game Hunter?

I always felt cards like Basking Rootwalla was way too low impact even if it was discarded.

Archfiend was okay when I played it in the MTGO Vintage Cube. The madness cost of 8 life was pretty steep though.

Thanks!

I always been wanting Geier Reach Sanitarium to be good as a way to support discard, draw denial and for ramp decks to over the top of their opponent.

Has anyone tested Geier Reach Sanitarium before?

With both a draw-punishing theme and a discard theme, it's likely quite playable. I haven't tested it in a while.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

With both a draw-punishing theme and a discard theme, it's likely quite playable. I haven't tested it in a while.

My friend that used to play Modern Iron told me this card has just been a Godsend as it guarantees inevitability as your top deck is almost always better than your opponents.

But this was YEARS back, but I think the theory is still valid.

Quote from steve_man »

Quote from AlanYuan »

I always been wanting Geier Reach Sanitarium to be good as a way to support discard, draw denial and for ramp decks to over the top of their opponent.

Has anyone tested Geier Reach Sanitarium before?

Tested it when it was first released and it was very low impact. There's more things to do with it now, but still seems low impact for me to justify a slot for it like with a lot of other utility lands like Volrath's Stronghold / Academy Ruins / etc. This could be justified if a specific archetype was that desperate for help, but things like Hullbreacher / Orcish Bowmasters / discard matters / etc have more than enough things to work with IMO. There's so many other good discard outlets that I'm not playing right now that I'd add to my cube before this even becomes a blip on my radar.

Yah I'm someone thats huge advocate for Academy Ruins - It's been an absolute house I every deck I've played it in.

Quote from steve_man »

Quote from AlanYuan »

Yah I'm someone thats huge advocate for Academy Ruins - It's been an absolute house I every deck I've played it in.

This was never the case for me for either Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold. Volrath's Stronghold is much more useful than Academy Ruins just because there's so many more creatures than artifacts, and even Stronghold was lackluster for being too slow.

The cost is high for both cube / deck real estate equity for utility lands these days. More so for lands that only tap for colorless. Geir Reach Sanitarium has issues being symmetrical and only tapping for colorless mana. If I were explicitly supporting discard matters I'd probably look at maxing out the LTR landcyclers and playing more of the channel lands cycle (Boseiju, Who Endures and friends) since that really helps with the deck real estate equity issues. Lots of great cards with channel / cycling that play well with the theme while being decent cards on their own like the channel lands / LTR landcyclers / Twinshot Sniper / etc.

My experience is generally Academy Ruins decks can afford to play colorless lands but Volrath's Stronghold decks cannot afford a colorless land.