IIRC it will check the last know loyalty. If you kill it with burn, it will alter the PT of the token to 0/0. If you Hero's Downfall or whatever in response, it doesn't shrink the token.
Yeah this was my thought as well. Forgot that killing Nissa with burn would also do the trick, not just leaving her dangling with 1 or 2 loyalty.
Have you all seen the rulings for this card? My understanding is the X/X could be shrunk if the Nissa is Bolted in response to the ability being put on the stack BUT it will never be a 0/0 if the Nissa is killed with the ability on the stack. Is that the correct interpretation of the rulings on this card?
Have you all seen the rulings for this card? My understanding is the X/X could be shrunk if the Nissa is Bolted in response to the ability being put on the stack BUT it will never be a 0/0 if the Nissa is killed with the ability on the stack. Is that the correct interpretation of the rulings on this card?
Yes, this is the ruling per the comprehensive rules. Basically it looks at what Nissa had the last time it existed when somebody held priority and was able to do something. That's why the creature won't ETB as a 0/0 if you burn the Nissa down to 0 in response.
608.2h If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.
Have you all seen the rulings for this card? My understanding is the X/X could be shrunk if the Nissa is Bolted in response to the ability being put on the stack BUT it will never be a 0/0 if the Nissa is killed with the ability on the stack. Is that the correct interpretation of the rulings on this card?
Have you all seen the rulings for this card? My understanding is the X/X could be shrunk if the Nissa is Bolted in response to the ability being put on the stack BUT it will never be a 0/0 if the Nissa is killed with the ability on the stack. Is that the correct interpretation of the rulings on this card?
Yes, this is the ruling per the comprehensive rules. Basically it looks at what Nissa had the last time it existed when somebody held priority and was able to do something. That's why the creature won't ETB as a 0/0 if you burn the Nissa down to 0 in response.
608.2h If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.
That’s not quite correct. If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield when the ability resolves, then it will indeed use LKI as described in 608.2h. That!s why if she eats, say, a Hero’s Downfall, you still get a 4/4.
But if she gets burned to death by stoke the flames, the last known info is 0 counters so it creates a 0/0. Same for being killed by say a Hexmage is response.
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That’s not quite correct. If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield when the ability resolves, then it will indeed use LKI as described in 608.2h. That!s why if she eats, say, a Hero’s Downfall, you still get a 4/4.
But if she gets burned to death by stoke the flames, the last known info is 0 counters so it creates a 0/0. Same for being killed by say a Hexmage is response.
Gatherer ruling says otherwise:
If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield at the time her first ability resolves, use the number of loyalty counters she had when she last existed on the battlefield to determine the value of X.
Definition of Last Known Information per the Comprehensive Rules:
Information about an object that’s no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in, or information about a player
who’s no longer in the game. This information captures that object’s last existence in that zone or that
player’s last existence in the game. See rules 113.7a, 608.2b, 608.2h, and 800.4h.
In a 3 loyalty vs Lightning Bolt scenario, last known information would be considered 3 because that was that's how much loyalty Nissa had the last time somebody was able to perform a game action before state-based effects kicked in and move Nissa to the graveyard. Same principal applies to Hangarback Walker and -1/-1 counters:
If enough -1/-1 counters are put on Hangarback Walker at the same time to make its toughness 0 or less, the number of +1/+1 counters on it before it got any -1/-1 counters will be used to determine how many Thopter tokens you get. For example, if there are three +1/+1 counters on Hangarback Walker and it gets four -1/-1 counters, you'll get three Thopter tokens. That's because Hangarback Walker's triggered ability checks the creature's existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point.
That’s not quite correct. If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield when the ability resolves, then it will indeed use LKI as described in 608.2h. That!s why if she eats, say, a Hero’s Downfall, you still get a 4/4.
But if she gets burned to death by stoke the flames, the last known info is 0 counters so it creates a 0/0. Same for being killed by say a Hexmage is response.
Gatherer ruling says otherwise:
If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield at the time her first ability resolves, use the number of loyalty counters she had when she last existed on the battlefield to determine the value of X.
Definition of Last Known Information per the Comprehensive Rules:
Information about an object that’s no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in, or information about a player
who’s no longer in the game. This information captures that object’s last existence in that zone or that
player’s last existence in the game. See rules 113.7a, 608.2b, 608.2h, and 800.4h.
In a 3 loyalty vs Lightning Bolt scenario, last known information would be considered 3 because that was that's how much loyalty Nissa had the last time somebody was able to perform a game action before state-based effects kicked in and move Nissa to the graveyard. Same principal applies to Hangarback Walker and -1/-1 counters:
If enough -1/-1 counters are put on Hangarback Walker at the same time to make its toughness 0 or less, the number of +1/+1 counters on it before it got any -1/-1 counters will be used to determine how many Thopter tokens you get. For example, if there are three +1/+1 counters on Hangarback Walker and it gets four -1/-1 counters, you'll get three Thopter tokens. That's because Hangarback Walker's triggered ability checks the creature's existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point.
Again, this is not correct. You are misinterpreting how many counters the last known information is. When PW are killed by damage, the exact process is:
Damage causes loss of counters
The PW goes to 0 counters
PW dies to state based effects for having 0 counters
The LKI is 0!
This is the same reason that you get 0 thopter from a Hangback that gets Hexmaged to death. I think you are getting confused by the hangarback -1/-1 counter interaction — in that case the creature is killed by SBE’s *before* the +1/+1 counters are removed because it has 0 toughness or less. Or in the case of say a 5/5 Walker that takes 2 damage and then gets skinrendered, the process is:
Game sees a net 2/2 with 2 damage on it
SBEs send it to the GY
LKI sees that before it was sent to the GY, it had 5 counters
You get 5 thopters
Nissa does not die as a 4/4 with 4 damage on it however. There is no concept of damage being marked on PW or PW dying from having more damage marked than their loyalty at all. The damage is replaced by loss of counters and the state of the object before being sent to the GY (which is what LKI looks at) is having 0 counters.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Looking into this more, Sliver Lord is right. Turns out last known information = 0 in the Lightning Bolt scenario. I've always assumed that "an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed" clause referred to when the last time somebody was able to perform a game action before state-based effects kicked in.
Yeah this was my thought as well. Forgot that killing Nissa with burn would also do the trick, not just leaving her dangling with 1 or 2 loyalty.
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Yes, this is the ruling per the comprehensive rules. Basically it looks at what Nissa had the last time it existed when somebody held priority and was able to do something. That's why the creature won't ETB as a 0/0 if you burn the Nissa down to 0 in response.
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That’s not quite correct. If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield when the ability resolves, then it will indeed use LKI as described in 608.2h. That!s why if she eats, say, a Hero’s Downfall, you still get a 4/4.
But if she gets burned to death by stoke the flames, the last known info is 0 counters so it creates a 0/0. Same for being killed by say a Hexmage is response.
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Gatherer ruling says otherwise:
Definition of Last Known Information per the Comprehensive Rules:
In a 3 loyalty vs Lightning Bolt scenario, last known information would be considered 3 because that was that's how much loyalty Nissa had the last time somebody was able to perform a game action before state-based effects kicked in and move Nissa to the graveyard. Same principal applies to Hangarback Walker and -1/-1 counters:
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Again, this is not correct. You are misinterpreting how many counters the last known information is. When PW are killed by damage, the exact process is:
Damage causes loss of counters
The PW goes to 0 counters
PW dies to state based effects for having 0 counters
The LKI is 0!
This is the same reason that you get 0 thopter from a Hangback that gets Hexmaged to death. I think you are getting confused by the hangarback -1/-1 counter interaction — in that case the creature is killed by SBE’s *before* the +1/+1 counters are removed because it has 0 toughness or less. Or in the case of say a 5/5 Walker that takes 2 damage and then gets skinrendered, the process is:
Game sees a net 2/2 with 2 damage on it
SBEs send it to the GY
LKI sees that before it was sent to the GY, it had 5 counters
You get 5 thopters
Nissa does not die as a 4/4 with 4 damage on it however. There is no concept of damage being marked on PW or PW dying from having more damage marked than their loyalty at all. The damage is replaced by loss of counters and the state of the object before being sent to the GY (which is what LKI looks at) is having 0 counters.
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
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A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra