I looked up but found no thread on the draw 7 + Hullbreacher/Narset/Leovold/Notion Thief combos that have been a part of many cubes for quite a while now.
To those who play Wheel combos, what are your impressions? Are they worth supporting? Which pieces are the most important and which function well outside of the combo?
I've recently come to the conclusion that Draw 7 + Hullbreacher / Narset / Leovold / Sheoldred / etc is pretty similar to Kiki-Twin in terms of it's a cheap A + B combo that pretty much just wins you the game if your opponent has no answer or doesn't have you in burn range.
Draw 7 has a lot of advantages over Kiki-Twin:
- There's more draw 7s than there are Kiki / Twins.
- The pieces are cheaper on average.
- The pieces are generally more powerful by themselves, especially in comparison to Pestermite / Deceiver of Exarch.
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Which pieces are the most important and which function well outside of the combo?
Wheel of Fortune + Timetwister are definitely the most important draw 7s. Kind of gets murky after that. Right now my third draw 7 of choice is Commit // Memory. I don't support storm so the other draw 7s aren't as good for me. Time Spiral / Magus of the Wheel would probably be the next ones I would play. There are also non-draw 7s that can force your opponent to draw / discard like Dack Fayden / Prismari Command, or you can break the symmetry on things like Arcane Denial / Baleful Mastery / etc.
Hullbreacher is by far the best saboteur, since it has the flash aspect of Pestermite / Deceiver of Exarch. Narset / Leovold / Sheoldred come next, with Notion Thief probably a distant fifth. The nice thing about the top 4 is that they're generally good cards on their own and don't need draw 7s to be useful.
Tier 1 Draw 7:
Time twister
Wheel of fortune
Time Spiral
Memory Jar
Tier 2 Draw 7:
Echo of eons
Commit // Memory
These are the ones I support in my cube and they've firmly found a home.
As for Echo of eons, I agressively support looting in my cube. Im not sure how it would perform without that.
But with that, it often comes together often enough to be worth a slot. Certainly a great card in the right deck.
Magus of the wheel I'd put in tier 3 category. Haven't tested it since this combo became a thing tho.
Notion Thief is a really underrated card. Not only is it an insane combo piece, but it's a super powerful anti-draw card, and has the highest impact of any of the support cards against draw effects. Hullbreacher and Notion Thief are my favorite support cards, followed by Leovold and Narset. The new Sheoldred happens to be awesome in this archetype too.
As far as wheel effects go, Wheel, Timetwister, Time Spiral and Commit // Memory are all great. Memory Jar can be powerful in the right decks and situations too. Echo of Eons is the one for me that's on the outside looking in, and I'd be playing it if I had more decks that wanted raw draw-7's.
I run Narset and and 2 wheels (wheel of fortune & time twister).
I'm always on the fence about the combo, but it has stayed because Narset is the only card I run specifically for it.
I like it as something a deck can do occasionally but I wouldn't want to support it to the point it's showing up every draft
My main issue is if players don't know to scoop to it. I've pulled it off and had my opponent play out the rest of the game, neither of us were too excited by the game but since the combo leaves the door open people won't scoop, compared to splinter twin that actually kills them.
It is a brutal combo when it goes off and most of the cards that enable them are cubeable in their own right. Using 3cmc spells is pretty good as well when compared to most twin cards being 4cmc+ (twin, Kiki, resto angel, conscripts). Twin does have the bonus of more parts of its combo having flash.
I have newfound interest in this combo because due to the err, controversial thousand-dollar proxy product, my cube sort of gained access to Timetwister and Wheel of Fortune and those seem to the the key parts. I already play Hullbreacher, Narset and Commit/Memory (waaaay slower) but the deck never came together, maybe Wheel and Timetwister will entice more players into drafting this.
My experience is Draw 7 decks are relatively hard to build and they offer a high play ceiling,
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My experience is Draw 7 decks are relatively hard to build and they offer a high play ceiling,
I find draw 7 combo to be easier than other combos since the individual pieces themselves are pretty strong by themselves and aren't parasitic like other combos. You also really don't need to go all in on the draw 7 combo like you would with an Oath of Druids deck or something. It's more like Kiki-Twin where they're just midrange / control decks that so happen to have the draw 7 combo.
I also can't stress how important it is that the pieces really don't need the combo to do well (unlike Pestermite / Deceiver Exarch). Draw 7s have always been useful before Notion Thief / Hullbreacher / etc existed (especially with Fastbond), and Hullbreacher type cards really don't need the draw 7s to be effective. I've found the deck doesn't really need much support because of this.
My experience is Draw 7 decks are relatively hard to build and they offer a high play ceiling,
I find draw 7 combo to be easier than other combos since the individual pieces themselves are pretty strong by themselves and aren't parasitic like other combos. You also really don't need to go all in on the draw 7 combo like you would with an Oath of Druids deck or something. It's more like Kiki-Twin where they're just midrange / control decks that so happen to have the draw 7 combo.
I guess this might be more or less that I play quite a bit of constructed legacy (and modern 4 years ago) where decks like Reanimator, Twin, Melira, Burn, Tezzeret etc. have constructed templates with deck theories on their role for each matchup.
However, Draw 7s are banned from a lot of formats and I haven't seen too many constructed decklists with them and I've had my share of playing Memory Jar/ Time Spiral incorrectly.
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I guess this might be more or less that I play quite a bit of constructed legacy (and modern 4 years ago) where decks like Reanimator, Twin, Melira, Burn, Tezzeret etc. have constructed templates with deck theories on their role for each matchup.
However, Draw 7s are banned from a lot of formats and I haven't seen too many constructed decklists with them and I've had my share of playing Memory Jar/ Time Spiral incorrectly.
Grixis Thieves has been a thing in Vintage for as long as Dack / Notion Thief has been around, although it's definitely a deck that I wouldn't expect people to know about unless they really follow the format. Typically those were Tinker / Time Vault decks that could also just get you with Notion Thief / Dack. Has evolved over time with Hullbreacher / Leovold / Narset / etc. A lot of them didn't actually play draw 7s, but tehy'd still get you with things like Dack / Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. Also, V75% of Vintage are blue and / or Bazaar of Baghdad decks anyways, so Notion Thief was only dead weight against Workshops anyways.
While there isn't a lot of well known precedence of the draw 7 combo decks, it's still an A + B combo deck with cards that generally share the same cmc / colors as Kiki-Twin, which there is plenty of precedence in both constructed and cube. In cube they're arguably interchangeable with each other where you can just take a midrange / control Kiki-Twin deck and replace it with the appropriate draw 7s / Hullbreacher + Narset and vice versa.
My experience is Draw 7 decks are relatively hard to build and they offer a high play ceiling,
I find draw 7 combo to be easier than other combos since the individual pieces themselves are pretty strong by themselves and aren't parasitic like other combos. You also really don't need to go all in on the draw 7 combo like you would with an Oath of Druids deck or something. It's more like Kiki-Twin where they're just midrange / control decks that so happen to have the draw 7 combo.
I guess this might be more or less that I play quite a bit of constructed legacy (and modern 4 years ago) where decks like Reanimator, Twin, Melira, Burn, Tezzeret etc. have constructed templates with deck theories on their role for each matchup.
However, Draw 7s are banned from a lot of formats and I haven't seen too many constructed decklists with them and I've had my share of playing Memory Jar/ Time Spiral incorrectly.
In powered cubes, generally the payoff (Narset/Leovold/Hullbreacher) for the draw 7's are shoved into decks that are naturally good with draw 7s.
Decks that can spit out permanents faster than the opponent break the symmetry. Either via cheap ramp effects , moxes/artifact power, fast bond, aggressive creatures/cheap burn spells.
Also, decks with a combo element can be strong with draw 7's.
Splinter twin combo and time walk effects are particularly nice so you can out tempo your opponent with the freshly drawn cards.
if you can kill your opponent quickly after the draw 7, you turned it into a form of virtual card advantage.
Orcish Bowmasters and Faerie Mastermind both seem like cards that can fit in this archetype as well. Has anything else that has been released in the Las year or so played well in this space?
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Orcish Bowmasters and Faerie Mastermind both seem like cards that can fit in this archetype as well. Has anything else that has been released in the Las year or so played well in this space?
- As far as saboteurs go, the only other one that comes to mind that was released within the past year is Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
I added Day's Undoing to my cube to support this since I didn't manage to get a thousand dollar proxy Timetwister. Should table a lot but if you have a Narset/Hullbreacher/Sheoldred, might as well pick it. It was either that or Echo of Eons but Echo requiring a loot effect made me go for Day's Undoing, IDK it that was the right call.
I added Day's Undoing to my cube to support this since I didn't manage to get a thousand dollar proxy Timetwister. Should table a lot but if you have a Narset/Hullbreacher/Sheoldred, might as well pick it. It was either that or Echo of Eons but Echo requiring a loot effect made me go for Day's Undoing, IDK it that was the right call.
Echo of Eons goes up in value if you play LED / support storm. If you're not supporting those and just looking for more things to combo with Hullbreacher and friends, I prefer Day's Undoing.
I'm of the opinion adding cards that are unplayable outside of draw7/narset* combo to only support this combo is unnecessary.
This is one of the strongest interactions in the cube and it has a high floor compared to other combo decks. Each combo piece is a good card in itself.
The fail case is often a solid pile of good stuff cards with one wheel/one enabler.
There are many draw 7's that are good enough to see play on their own and leovold/narset/sheoldred/bowmasters/hullbreacher are all excellent enablers that see play in other decks.
Echo of eons in my cube sees a decent amount of play outside of this interaction (fastbond, artifact ramp) and has it's own interesting interactions (entomb, frantic search, self mill). If you don't have many looting effects and play an unpowered cube, it loses a lot of it's appeal though.
I'm of the opinion adding cards that are unplayable outside of draw7/narset* combo to only support this combo is unnecessary.
I've been trying to push Fastbond / Exploration decks more, and those really want their draw 7s. Currently I'm trying to push the envelope with draw 7s to help support that while making sure it's not fighting too much with Hullbreacher and friends. Draw 7s in general are always fun for everybody (when you're not getting screwed by Hullbreacher), so I'm curious to how things will turn out when I really start pushing the envelope my on draw 7 critical mass.
I do agree with you though, I'd play less draw 7s if Hullbreacher and friends were my only real payoffs.
I think the standard Twist/Sprial/Fortune/Jar are pretty obvious for a powered cube (supporting “Wheels” or otherwise) but I wanted to add my 2c on Echo of Eons (I play Commit/Memory, but I don’t count on it as a Wheel because Commit is the reason I play that card).
I thought it would be unplayable garbage at first, but I was shocked how often it was in my yard (and I don’t go out of my way with loot effects or anything, though cards like Loam and DRC come to mind as the incidental “oops there’s a wheel”), and even more shocked at how solid it was at 6 mana given there’s an Echo still chilling in the yard. I initially discounted how powerful that would be, and given the proclivity for ramp in cube (artifact or otherwise), even outside the “Wheels” deck, I’ve been finding it well worth the cost (Tolarian Academy, Cradle, anyone?). Not to mention how stupidly powerful powered cube has become, with Commander/MH1&2 cards warping the format, I’m more incentivized then ever to “break it” with my deck, and Echo has been solid redundancy (no complaints here about power creep, but looking at my cube log over the last 2-3 years, it’s wild what I was still playing as “staples” and what’s replaced those cards).
I played a bit of Day’s Undoing, but man do I hate ending my turn. I think outside of a Wheels combo, it’s pretty substandard, where Eons has proven capable in a number of different archetypes. I’ve only had it in my cube for the past month or so, but have gotten more than a few reps with it, and it’s likely here to stay for a bit. My only reason to cut it would be that I’m just playing too many wheels, but I don’t think I’m there. The power of drawing 7 is insane, fits a lot of decks besides the combo and the power level of powered cube feels monstrous these days. A necessary adaption.
Final aside, I feel like even w/6 mana Eons (assuming no combo), it benefits from knowing when you’re going to leverage it, and your opp doesn’t. Kind of like in limited when you’re playing Wrath. You may kill your own creatures (they draw 7 and you paid 6), but the information advantage should mitigate that, not to mention solid deck building (draft Tolarian Academy, duh).
Orcish Bowmasters and Faerie Mastermind both seem like cards that can fit in this archetype as well. Has anything else that has been released in the Las year or so played well in this space?
Faerie is once a turn though. Is it really worth it?
I added Day's Undoing to my cube to support this since I didn't manage to get a thousand dollar proxy Timetwister. Should table a lot but if you have a Narset/Hullbreacher/Sheoldred, might as well pick it. It was either that or Echo of Eons but Echo requiring a loot effect made me go for Day's Undoing, IDK it that was the right call.
I still think Windfall > Day's Undoing. I'm not playing it right now because I think having 6 (Time Spiral, Twister, Wheel, Echo, Commit, Jar) are enough draw 7s. I think having 7 is just a few too many.
The "you may" for my opponent has been problematic. Its a good card, but I feel I have enough draw spells that I probably don't need another draw 7.
It's really nice for Fastbond / Exploration and can still be effective as a value spell since Hullbreacher and friends force them to opt out of it. Sheoldred will still gain you 14 life.
I still think Windfall > Day's Undoing. I'm not playing it right now because I think having 6 (Time Spiral, Twister, Wheel, Echo, Commit, Jar) are enough draw 7s. I think having 7 is just a few too many.
Memory Jar is probably my least favorite draw 7 outside of storm. The draw 7 lasting for a single turn means your opponent probably is never going to get much value out of it in the first place outside of removal or things with flash. I guess it has gone up in value though since it works well with Orcish Bowmasters alongside Hullbreacher / Sheoldred.
This is probably too cute, but what do you think of Teferi's Puzzle Box as a lock piece for this "archetype".
It's not great on its own, but the ability can help dig for other pieces for the combo.
This is probably too cute, but what do you think of Teferi's Puzzle Box as a lock piece for this "archetype".
It's not great on its own, but the ability can help dig for other pieces for the combo.
That is an interesting way to find the combo while setting up a lock. Those with the Hullbreacher clause are will pretty much be locked out of a way to deal with Hullbreacher itself unless they have an instant. My only concern with Teferi's Puzzlebox is that it doesn't have crossover into other archetypes like other wheels do.
I looked up but found no thread on the draw 7 + Hullbreacher/Narset/Leovold/Notion Thief combos that have been a part of many cubes for quite a while now.
To those who play Wheel combos, what are your impressions? Are they worth supporting? Which pieces are the most important and which function well outside of the combo?
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StaffDraw 7 has a lot of advantages over Kiki-Twin:
- There's more draw 7s than there are Kiki / Twins.
- The pieces are cheaper on average.
- The pieces are generally more powerful by themselves, especially in comparison to Pestermite / Deceiver of Exarch.
Wheel of Fortune + Timetwister are definitely the most important draw 7s. Kind of gets murky after that. Right now my third draw 7 of choice is Commit // Memory. I don't support storm so the other draw 7s aren't as good for me. Time Spiral / Magus of the Wheel would probably be the next ones I would play. There are also non-draw 7s that can force your opponent to draw / discard like Dack Fayden / Prismari Command, or you can break the symmetry on things like Arcane Denial / Baleful Mastery / etc.
Hullbreacher is by far the best saboteur, since it has the flash aspect of Pestermite / Deceiver of Exarch. Narset / Leovold / Sheoldred come next, with Notion Thief probably a distant fifth. The nice thing about the top 4 is that they're generally good cards on their own and don't need draw 7s to be useful.
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Time twister
Wheel of fortune
Time Spiral
Memory Jar
Tier 2 Draw 7:
Echo of eons
Commit // Memory
These are the ones I support in my cube and they've firmly found a home.
As for Echo of eons, I agressively support looting in my cube. Im not sure how it would perform without that.
But with that, it often comes together often enough to be worth a slot. Certainly a great card in the right deck.
Magus of the wheel I'd put in tier 3 category. Haven't tested it since this combo became a thing tho.
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As far as wheel effects go, Wheel, Timetwister, Time Spiral and Commit // Memory are all great. Memory Jar can be powerful in the right decks and situations too. Echo of Eons is the one for me that's on the outside looking in, and I'd be playing it if I had more decks that wanted raw draw-7's.
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I'm always on the fence about the combo, but it has stayed because Narset is the only card I run specifically for it.
I like it as something a deck can do occasionally but I wouldn't want to support it to the point it's showing up every draft
My main issue is if players don't know to scoop to it. I've pulled it off and had my opponent play out the rest of the game, neither of us were too excited by the game but since the combo leaves the door open people won't scoop, compared to splinter twin that actually kills them.
It is a brutal combo when it goes off and most of the cards that enable them are cubeable in their own right. Using 3cmc spells is pretty good as well when compared to most twin cards being 4cmc+ (twin, Kiki, resto angel, conscripts). Twin does have the bonus of more parts of its combo having flash.
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StaffI find draw 7 combo to be easier than other combos since the individual pieces themselves are pretty strong by themselves and aren't parasitic like other combos. You also really don't need to go all in on the draw 7 combo like you would with an Oath of Druids deck or something. It's more like Kiki-Twin where they're just midrange / control decks that so happen to have the draw 7 combo.
I also can't stress how important it is that the pieces really don't need the combo to do well (unlike Pestermite / Deceiver Exarch). Draw 7s have always been useful before Notion Thief / Hullbreacher / etc existed (especially with Fastbond), and Hullbreacher type cards really don't need the draw 7s to be effective. I've found the deck doesn't really need much support because of this.
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I guess this might be more or less that I play quite a bit of constructed legacy (and modern 4 years ago) where decks like Reanimator, Twin, Melira, Burn, Tezzeret etc. have constructed templates with deck theories on their role for each matchup.
However, Draw 7s are banned from a lot of formats and I haven't seen too many constructed decklists with them and I've had my share of playing Memory Jar/ Time Spiral incorrectly.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
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StaffGrixis Thieves has been a thing in Vintage for as long as Dack / Notion Thief has been around, although it's definitely a deck that I wouldn't expect people to know about unless they really follow the format. Typically those were Tinker / Time Vault decks that could also just get you with Notion Thief / Dack. Has evolved over time with Hullbreacher / Leovold / Narset / etc. A lot of them didn't actually play draw 7s, but tehy'd still get you with things like Dack / Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. Also, V75% of Vintage are blue and / or Bazaar of Baghdad decks anyways, so Notion Thief was only dead weight against Workshops anyways.
While there isn't a lot of well known precedence of the draw 7 combo decks, it's still an A + B combo deck with cards that generally share the same cmc / colors as Kiki-Twin, which there is plenty of precedence in both constructed and cube. In cube they're arguably interchangeable with each other where you can just take a midrange / control Kiki-Twin deck and replace it with the appropriate draw 7s / Hullbreacher + Narset and vice versa.
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In powered cubes, generally the payoff (Narset/Leovold/Hullbreacher) for the draw 7's are shoved into decks that are naturally good with draw 7s.
Decks that can spit out permanents faster than the opponent break the symmetry. Either via cheap ramp effects , moxes/artifact power, fast bond, aggressive creatures/cheap burn spells.
Also, decks with a combo element can be strong with draw 7's.
Splinter twin combo and time walk effects are particularly nice so you can out tempo your opponent with the freshly drawn cards.
if you can kill your opponent quickly after the draw 7, you turned it into a form of virtual card advantage.
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Staff- As far as saboteurs go, the only other one that comes to mind that was released within the past year is Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
- Sail into the West from LTC is a good new draw 7.
- Some older cards that have appreciated over time that some people may have looked over are things like Windfall / Day's Undoing / Collective Defiance / Commit // Memory / Arcane Denial / Baleful Mastery
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This is literally the best supported archetype out there.
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StaffEcho of Eons goes up in value if you play LED / support storm. If you're not supporting those and just looking for more things to combo with Hullbreacher and friends, I prefer Day's Undoing.
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This is one of the strongest interactions in the cube and it has a high floor compared to other combo decks. Each combo piece is a good card in itself.
The fail case is often a solid pile of good stuff cards with one wheel/one enabler.
There are many draw 7's that are good enough to see play on their own and leovold/narset/sheoldred/bowmasters/hullbreacher are all excellent enablers that see play in other decks.
Echo of eons in my cube sees a decent amount of play outside of this interaction (fastbond, artifact ramp) and has it's own interesting interactions (entomb, frantic search, self mill). If you don't have many looting effects and play an unpowered cube, it loses a lot of it's appeal though.
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StaffI've been trying to push Fastbond / Exploration decks more, and those really want their draw 7s. Currently I'm trying to push the envelope with draw 7s to help support that while making sure it's not fighting too much with Hullbreacher and friends. Draw 7s in general are always fun for everybody (when you're not getting screwed by Hullbreacher), so I'm curious to how things will turn out when I really start pushing the envelope my on draw 7 critical mass.
I do agree with you though, I'd play less draw 7s if Hullbreacher and friends were my only real payoffs.
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I thought it would be unplayable garbage at first, but I was shocked how often it was in my yard (and I don’t go out of my way with loot effects or anything, though cards like Loam and DRC come to mind as the incidental “oops there’s a wheel”), and even more shocked at how solid it was at 6 mana given there’s an Echo still chilling in the yard. I initially discounted how powerful that would be, and given the proclivity for ramp in cube (artifact or otherwise), even outside the “Wheels” deck, I’ve been finding it well worth the cost (Tolarian Academy, Cradle, anyone?). Not to mention how stupidly powerful powered cube has become, with Commander/MH1&2 cards warping the format, I’m more incentivized then ever to “break it” with my deck, and Echo has been solid redundancy (no complaints here about power creep, but looking at my cube log over the last 2-3 years, it’s wild what I was still playing as “staples” and what’s replaced those cards).
I played a bit of Day’s Undoing, but man do I hate ending my turn. I think outside of a Wheels combo, it’s pretty substandard, where Eons has proven capable in a number of different archetypes. I’ve only had it in my cube for the past month or so, but have gotten more than a few reps with it, and it’s likely here to stay for a bit. My only reason to cut it would be that I’m just playing too many wheels, but I don’t think I’m there. The power of drawing 7 is insane, fits a lot of decks besides the combo and the power level of powered cube feels monstrous these days. A necessary adaption.
Final aside, I feel like even w/6 mana Eons (assuming no combo), it benefits from knowing when you’re going to leverage it, and your opp doesn’t. Kind of like in limited when you’re playing Wrath. You may kill your own creatures (they draw 7 and you paid 6), but the information advantage should mitigate that, not to mention solid deck building (draft Tolarian Academy, duh).
The "you may" for my opponent has been problematic. Its a good card, but I feel I have enough draw spells that I probably don't need another draw 7.
Faerie is once a turn though. Is it really worth it?
I still think Windfall > Day's Undoing. I'm not playing it right now because I think having 6 (Time Spiral, Twister, Wheel, Echo, Commit, Jar) are enough draw 7s. I think having 7 is just a few too many.
I love this card. This card was REALLY fun during a commander cube game.
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StaffIt's really nice for Fastbond / Exploration and can still be effective as a value spell since Hullbreacher and friends force them to opt out of it. Sheoldred will still gain you 14 life.
Memory Jar is probably my least favorite draw 7 outside of storm. The draw 7 lasting for a single turn means your opponent probably is never going to get much value out of it in the first place outside of removal or things with flash. I guess it has gone up in value though since it works well with Orcish Bowmasters alongside Hullbreacher / Sheoldred.
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I've seen people play this incredibly well with Goblin Welder. I just wish there was better redundancy for Welder ...
It's not great on its own, but the ability can help dig for other pieces for the combo.
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StaffThat is an interesting way to find the combo while setting up a lock. Those with the Hullbreacher clause are will pretty much be locked out of a way to deal with Hullbreacher itself unless they have an instant. My only concern with Teferi's Puzzlebox is that it doesn't have crossover into other archetypes like other wheels do.
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