I've noticed this is becoming a consistent theme right now on quite a few cube discussion forums.
I recall 2-3 years ago that these variants are always considered stables and any cube list should play a minimum of 3-4 of each of these variants.
- Oblivion Ring variants - 3 CMC enchantment, remove any permanent
- Lightning Strike variants - 2 CMC 3 damage to any target
- Doom Blade variants - 2 CMC black instant speed removal
- Path to Exile variants (1-2 CMC instant speed removal that gives your opponent upside)
- Languish / Earthquake variants - Conditional 4 CMC sweepers in red/ black
- Disenchant variants - 2 CMC instant speed remove target artifact/ enchantment
However the recent power creep has pushed several of these cards into the cutting block. I've seen arguments describing Doom blade variant as other a 2 for 1 for the opponent (creature ETB/ LTB etc) and Fateful Absence as a 3 for 1 for the opponent.
I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts on these removal spells?
Here are my thoughts:
- Oblivion Ring / Lighting Strike, Doom blade, Path to Exile variants - all fairly good. They are less good, but provide the tempo/ disruption for your strategy to work. I'm not too unhappy if I 2 for 1 myself if I can land a 5 drop to recoup the card loss or I can clear a blocker for my more aggressive stragety
- Languish/ Earthquake - I been less happy about these - Not removing fatty cheat targets or bombs is holding this back. Aggressive strategies in my cube can easily play around this type of effect.
- Disenchant - I feel I don't really "need" this type of effect anymore - I could plenty of flexible removal that can answer artifacts/ enchantments. If i would like to punish the signet/ moxen openings, I would consider adding back Collector Ouphe/ Kataki etc. Disenchant a moxen feels like a losing proposition.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
O. Ring: I just cut my last O.Ring on the MID update. I think my White removal is plentiful enough and versatile enough that this is no longer needed at my size.
Lightning Strike: If it can hit any target, it gets in. The ones that can't go face, I'm not interested in (besides Abrade, which is an all-star). I will happily play more of these if they're printed.
Doom Blade: I know a lot of people have become low on these, but I still like them. 2-mana-instant-speed-kill-most-creatures is good enough. I run 2.
Path to Exile: Path and StP are fantastic. Something with a targeting restriction like Condemn is not. But Path is great.
Languish/Earthquake: Never ran any of these at 360. Can't imagine I would in the future.
Disenchant: I still have good-old-fashioned Disenchant in my cube. There's a lot of must-answer Enchantments and powerful Artifacts. Disenchant is one of the few ways to get out of an Opposition lock in my cube, for example.
Disenchant a moxen feels like a losing proposition.
Sometimes. But if the Opponent goes Turn 1 land+mox, Turn 2 miss a land drop, I'm definitely going to Stone Rain them.
- O Ring feels like its at its weakest. However, white is traditionally the weakest color in vintage cube, but the way I make up for it is it plays the role the other colors cannot - excellent 1 drops, sweepers, removals etc.
- Languish is easily my weakest removal right now. I'm not sure if I can go down on sweepers, especially for control decks, but on the other hand, the efficient 1-2 cmc removal in white/ red have gotten particular good.
- Light Up the Night / Cathartic Pyre aren't too far off from rate on Lightning Strike variants, but I just have no idea who the cut for these.
- Disenchant feels too narrow for me - The main problem is its not a card I would openly mainboard. The alternative is to play the more flexible removal of Maelstorm Pulse/ O Ring etc.
- Doom Blade has been okay for me, but I've seen a lot of people cut them. I could see myself cutting them if I'm going up on red/ white removal spells.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
We just cut O-Ring and Banishing Light, so this discussion is timely for us! I can put up with some number of inefficient yet flexible answers, but what really dated O-Ring was the enchantment destruction blowout. There are a lot of great disenchant effects now, and in my opinion your clunky 3-mana sorcery speed removal spell should not also be fragile to a disenchant.
We cut the final Doom Blade about a year ago because of the efficient black answers that also hit walkers. See the Bone Shards discussion - I’d rather have a card like that than 2-mana 1-for-1 creature-only removal with a downside.
Lightning Strike effects are very safe for us. They give red aggro invaluable reach and go in a large number of decks.
I’m high on efficient white removal. We just added Oust. As threats get more and more efficient it has become apparent than 1-mana removal is premium and double spell turns between turns 3 and 5 can shift the tide of a game.
I agree that Languish feels weak - we just cut it. I still like Earthquake to support Boros Moat/flyers-style control, but it’s a bottom half card of a 720. We’re trying the new XBB enchantment sweeper because of its flexibility of coming down turn 3 against aggro and also adding some aristocrats support.
We just cut O-Ring and Banishing Light, so this discussion is timely for us! I can put up with some number of inefficient yet flexible answers, but what really dated O-Ring was the enchantment destruction blowout. There are a lot of great disenchant effects now, and in my opinion your clunky 3-mana sorcery speed removal spell should not also be fragile to a disenchant.
We cut the final Doom Blade about a year ago because of the efficient black answers that also hit walkers. See the Bone Shards discussion - I’d rather have a card like that than 2-mana 1-for-1 creature-only removal with a downside.
Lightning Strike effects are very safe for us. They give red aggro invaluable reach and go in a large number of decks.
I’m high on efficient white removal. We just added Oust. As threats get more and more efficient it has become apparent than 1-mana removal is premium and double spell turns between turns 3 and 5 can shift the tide of a game.
I agree that Languish feels weak - we just cut it. I still like Earthquake to support Boros Moat/flyers-style control, but it’s a bottom half card of a 720. We’re trying the new XBB enchantment sweeper because of its flexibility of coming down turn 3 against aggro and also adding some aristocrats support.
Earthquake is unlikely to ever get into my cube because Fury has more or less taken its spot and with Light Up the Night / Cathartic Pyre are on the bench as flexible red removal. Languish is weak, but I'm thinking if this is necessity for control decks.
I'm down to my last Doom Blade variant - Heartless act and this is unlikely to leave.
Wretched Confluence may make an appearance given the increasing high number of efficient removal spells - good top end for a lot of archetypes.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I still really like Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light. Simply seemed to work out for me quite a lot. But I'm also one of my drafters focusing on Enchantment Removal the most, so most other drafters have little to no answers to my O-Rings.
Regarding Earthquake - I've actually been killed a lot by my Aggro opponent playing Earthquake for 7 when I considered myself safe in the late game, so I like to keep it in as a weird form of reach and also a very useful, albeit conditional sweeper.
I still really like Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light. Simply seemed to work out for me quite a lot. But I'm also one of my drafters focusing on Enchantment Removal the most, so most other drafters have little to no answers to my O-Rings.
Regarding Earthquake - I've actually been killed a lot by my Aggro opponent playing Earthquake for 7 when I considered myself safe in the late game, so I like to keep it in as a weird form of reach and also a very useful, albeit conditional sweeper.
I have based on my decision on Doom Blades/ O rings roughly on modern - if Terminate or Detention Sphere are still in play in UW control or Jund/ Grixis, then I would continue to play them in my cube.
So right now, O Ring is on the cutting block - I'm still a bit reluctant as I do like its catch all nature + ability to remove Eldrazi from Polymorph decks.
Its very likely Heartless Act will be coming out of my next iteration - I do have Divest / Blackmail in my cube right now - but this is part of an experiment to up the black discard out. (TL-DR - They're not the best cards in the word, but a lot of these spell based combo/ control decks don't have much to do turn 1 and they'r overloaded with turn 2 spells - in particular signets).
I could see a world where Blackmail will be replaced with Despise and heartless act is cut to open up the cube for another colorless spell.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
The problem I have with basing things on tournament formats is those decks are finely tuned, and with multiple copies. It isn't a 1:1 if good in tourney then good in cube. Anything with delirium for example is very hard to pull off in cube in my experience. the flexibility of O-ring is very valuable.
The earthquake variants have fallen out of favor for me and I never ran Languish since Damnation and Toxic Deluge are superior. I don't run a lot of artifact/enchantment hate since I don't run fast mana/swords/power but I think there are multiple variants of Disenchant that are better than Disenchant - E.g. Nature's Chant. Everything else listed I still like and have some slots for.
2. Languish seems to be on their way out. Resarox and Patrunkenphat7 both play Earthquake. I don't think anyone is entirely in love with them or argues they're the best of the sweepers. We can cut them from 360 / more combo heavy cubes but they're fine in 720.
3. Patrunkenphat7 mentioned he doesn't like Oblivion Ring but he has Faith's Fetters, Quarantine Field and Elspeth Conquers Death. The rest of the people here agree the flexibility of O Ring is strong. I feel these are a necessity and cannot be cut.
I'm wondering if Detention Sphere should be added.
4. Doom Blade variants - I think this is safe to say they're not for 360, but has a room for 1-2 in 720.
5. Disenchant - Still good enough.
Without seeing everyone's list I think some number of Doom Blades/ Earthquake/ Languish variants need to stay at 540 - 720. I probably should be playing a few more given how creature combo heavy my cube is.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
While Oblivion Ring looks similar to Faith's Fetters, Elspeth Conquers Death, and Quarantine Field, all four of those cards play quite differently. Oblivion Ring is the most "efficient" (still sorcery speed 3 mana) while having none of the upsides of the other cards and the ultimate downside of giving your opponent full ETB value if they kill it. ECD is a value card that can't get blown out - there's a lot going on with this card. Fetters immediately does its job against aggro even if they kill it and can hit lands. It's a card that you actively want to draw against red aggro, whereas O-Ring can be clunky and low impact in that matchup. Quarantine Field is the most similar to the O-Ring downside but has massive upside and has consistently been a "remove all of your opponent's permanents" spell for us. I've accepted that for whatever reason Quarantine Field has not performed as well in other Cubes on this forum. For what it's worth, we build a lot of big mana non-blue control decks (things like Big Boros Moat).
Of those cards listed, Fetters is white card #85 in an 85-card section, but we don't plan to cut ECD or Quarantine Field anytime soon. It's possible Fetters will be cut by the time someone reads this next month.
It's worth noting that the recent printings of multiple strong Banisher Priest variants coupled with several new efficient white removal spells helped push the O-Rings out of my Cube.
I guess what I'm saying this this type of white 3+ enchantment "Catch-alls" are still good. You can pick and choose which ones you want.
The other thing I noticed is despite not playing Languish, you have Settle the Wreckage, Teminus, Doomskar, earthquake and subterrana Tremurs - a lot more sweepers than I have - I could see Languish as weaker than those, but I don't want all my sweepers to be in one color.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I recall 2-3 years ago that these variants are always considered stables and any cube list should play a minimum of 3-4 of each of these variants.
- Oblivion Ring variants - 3 CMC enchantment, remove any permanent
- Lightning Strike variants - 2 CMC 3 damage to any target
- Doom Blade variants - 2 CMC black instant speed removal
- Path to Exile variants (1-2 CMC instant speed removal that gives your opponent upside)
- Languish / Earthquake variants - Conditional 4 CMC sweepers in red/ black
- Disenchant variants - 2 CMC instant speed remove target artifact/ enchantment
However the recent power creep has pushed several of these cards into the cutting block. I've seen arguments describing Doom blade variant as other a 2 for 1 for the opponent (creature ETB/ LTB etc) and Fateful Absence as a 3 for 1 for the opponent.
I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts on these removal spells?
Here are my thoughts:
- Oblivion Ring / Lighting Strike, Doom blade, Path to Exile variants - all fairly good. They are less good, but provide the tempo/ disruption for your strategy to work. I'm not too unhappy if I 2 for 1 myself if I can land a 5 drop to recoup the card loss or I can clear a blocker for my more aggressive stragety
- Languish/ Earthquake - I been less happy about these - Not removing fatty cheat targets or bombs is holding this back. Aggressive strategies in my cube can easily play around this type of effect.
- Disenchant - I feel I don't really "need" this type of effect anymore - I could plenty of flexible removal that can answer artifacts/ enchantments. If i would like to punish the signet/ moxen openings, I would consider adding back Collector Ouphe/ Kataki etc. Disenchant a moxen feels like a losing proposition.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
O. Ring: I just cut my last O.Ring on the MID update. I think my White removal is plentiful enough and versatile enough that this is no longer needed at my size.
Lightning Strike: If it can hit any target, it gets in. The ones that can't go face, I'm not interested in (besides Abrade, which is an all-star). I will happily play more of these if they're printed.
Doom Blade: I know a lot of people have become low on these, but I still like them. 2-mana-instant-speed-kill-most-creatures is good enough. I run 2.
Path to Exile: Path and StP are fantastic. Something with a targeting restriction like Condemn is not. But Path is great.
Languish/Earthquake: Never ran any of these at 360. Can't imagine I would in the future.
Disenchant: I still have good-old-fashioned Disenchant in my cube. There's a lot of must-answer Enchantments and powerful Artifacts. Disenchant is one of the few ways to get out of an Opposition lock in my cube, for example.
Sometimes. But if the Opponent goes Turn 1 land+mox, Turn 2 miss a land drop, I'm definitely going to Stone Rain them.
[180 classic cube]
- Languish is easily my weakest removal right now. I'm not sure if I can go down on sweepers, especially for control decks, but on the other hand, the efficient 1-2 cmc removal in white/ red have gotten particular good.
- Light Up the Night / Cathartic Pyre aren't too far off from rate on Lightning Strike variants, but I just have no idea who the cut for these.
- Disenchant feels too narrow for me - The main problem is its not a card I would openly mainboard. The alternative is to play the more flexible removal of Maelstorm Pulse/ O Ring etc.
- Doom Blade has been okay for me, but I've seen a lot of people cut them. I could see myself cutting them if I'm going up on red/ white removal spells.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
We cut the final Doom Blade about a year ago because of the efficient black answers that also hit walkers. See the Bone Shards discussion - I’d rather have a card like that than 2-mana 1-for-1 creature-only removal with a downside.
Lightning Strike effects are very safe for us. They give red aggro invaluable reach and go in a large number of decks.
I’m high on efficient white removal. We just added Oust. As threats get more and more efficient it has become apparent than 1-mana removal is premium and double spell turns between turns 3 and 5 can shift the tide of a game.
I agree that Languish feels weak - we just cut it. I still like Earthquake to support Boros Moat/flyers-style control, but it’s a bottom half card of a 720. We’re trying the new XBB enchantment sweeper because of its flexibility of coming down turn 3 against aggro and also adding some aristocrats support.
Earthquake is unlikely to ever get into my cube because Fury has more or less taken its spot and with Light Up the Night / Cathartic Pyre are on the bench as flexible red removal. Languish is weak, but I'm thinking if this is necessity for control decks.
I'm down to my last Doom Blade variant - Heartless act and this is unlikely to leave.
Wretched Confluence may make an appearance given the increasing high number of efficient removal spells - good top end for a lot of archetypes.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Regarding Earthquake - I've actually been killed a lot by my Aggro opponent playing Earthquake for 7 when I considered myself safe in the late game, so I like to keep it in as a weird form of reach and also a very useful, albeit conditional sweeper.
I have based on my decision on Doom Blades/ O rings roughly on modern - if Terminate or Detention Sphere are still in play in UW control or Jund/ Grixis, then I would continue to play them in my cube.
With Unholy heat/ Prismatic Ending, Detention Sphere and Terminate has pretty much been pushed out.
So right now, O Ring is on the cutting block - I'm still a bit reluctant as I do like its catch all nature + ability to remove Eldrazi from Polymorph decks.
Its very likely Heartless Act will be coming out of my next iteration - I do have Divest / Blackmail in my cube right now - but this is part of an experiment to up the black discard out. (TL-DR - They're not the best cards in the word, but a lot of these spell based combo/ control decks don't have much to do turn 1 and they'r overloaded with turn 2 spells - in particular signets).
I could see a world where Blackmail will be replaced with Despise and heartless act is cut to open up the cube for another colorless spell.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
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Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
1. Lightning Strike variants are safe.
2. Languish seems to be on their way out. Resarox and Patrunkenphat7 both play Earthquake. I don't think anyone is entirely in love with them or argues they're the best of the sweepers. We can cut them from 360 / more combo heavy cubes but they're fine in 720.
3. Patrunkenphat7 mentioned he doesn't like Oblivion Ring but he has Faith's Fetters, Quarantine Field and Elspeth Conquers Death. The rest of the people here agree the flexibility of O Ring is strong. I feel these are a necessity and cannot be cut.
I'm wondering if Detention Sphere should be added.
4. Doom Blade variants - I think this is safe to say they're not for 360, but has a room for 1-2 in 720.
5. Disenchant - Still good enough.
Without seeing everyone's list I think some number of Doom Blades/ Earthquake/ Languish variants need to stay at 540 - 720. I probably should be playing a few more given how creature combo heavy my cube is.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Of those cards listed, Fetters is white card #85 in an 85-card section, but we don't plan to cut ECD or Quarantine Field anytime soon. It's possible Fetters will be cut by the time someone reads this next month.
It's worth noting that the recent printings of multiple strong Banisher Priest variants coupled with several new efficient white removal spells helped push the O-Rings out of my Cube.
The other thing I noticed is despite not playing Languish, you have Settle the Wreckage, Teminus, Doomskar, earthquake and subterrana Tremurs - a lot more sweepers than I have - I could see Languish as weaker than those, but I don't want all my sweepers to be in one color.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i