if 1 drop aggressive decks will be punished too much. I could see a world where 1 drop aggressive decks would need to rely more on cards like Bedlam Reveler, Treasure Cruise, Hazoret the Fervent, Armageddon, Experimental Frenzy to take advantage of their low CMC + tempo rather than ability to play 1 drops unanswered.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
if 1 drop aggressive decks will be punished too much. I could see a world where 1 drop aggressive decks would need to rely more on cards like Bedlam Reveler, Treasure Cruise, Hazoret the Fervent, Armageddon, Experimental Frenzy to take advantage of their low CMC + tempo rather than ability to play 1 drops unanswered.
I think this is a reasonable concern - it's been on my mind as well. We may have some time, as wtwlf points out, and really we might not want to go wild before having the chance to actually play these cards and just observe how things go ... but it's probably worth thinking about. Do you think 1-drop density will need to be boosted? Should we try to find more cards as potent as Armageddon to help top aggro off? Both? Probably worth a thread but I'm not sure how to really kick off that discussion.
if 1 drop aggressive decks will be punished too much. I could see a world where 1 drop aggressive decks would need to rely more on cards like Bedlam Reveler, Treasure Cruise, Hazoret the Fervent, Armageddon, Experimental Frenzy to take advantage of their low CMC + tempo rather than ability to play 1 drops unanswered.
I think this is a reasonable concern - it's been on my mind as well. We may have some time, as wtwlf points out, and really we might not want to go wild before having the chance to actually play these cards and just observe how things go ... but it's probably worth thinking about. Do you think 1-drop density will need to be boosted? Should we try to find more cards as potent as Armageddon to help top aggro off? Both? Probably worth a thread but I'm not sure how to really kick off that discussion.
I would like the latter. I personally would revisit some of the higher CMC cuts such as Experimental Frenzy that was great for Red Aggro/ Green-Red lands, but was ultimately cut because the cube cannot support too many high CMC options.
I like the trend that the general curve of the cube is trending downwards with more efficient lower CMC spells + flexible alternative cast spells. There are a lot more answers for the artifact fast mana, planeswalkers/ reanimator targets allowing aggressive strategies to be more disruptive than purely aggressive.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I'm a fan of the trend of modal cards with multiple ways to cast them. As the density of flexible cards increase, so does the amount of non-games decrease. I think this is a problem that we should solve once it arrives. While all of these cards certainly are powerful against aggro, red just got perhaps its strongest aggro card ever printed.
At the same time as these modal cards with early game modes are being printed, recent aggro cards have also been printed with late game potential: Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, Flamescroll Celebrant, Usher of the Fallen, Skyclave Shade, and not to mention all the rabblemaster variants that single handely can end games if you don't have an answer.
The ones with value outnumber those without. So perhaps Aggro is naturally adapting to the super efficient removal cards with value and recursive cards.
This card is depressing to me. There’s no real reason to print a strictly better Wrath of God. I don’t draft exclusively with pros, so there’s a high chance this card is passed accidentally because the white mana symbols weren’t read properly. For that reason alone, I won’t cut Wrath for it. But maybe you should depending on your playgroup!
I’m not trying to be a design boomer here, it’s great and hype and cool, but the strictly better design space used in quite a handful of these MH2 cards is grossly unnecessary and a little rude, lol.
This card is depressing to me. There’s no real reason to print a strictly better Wrath of God. I don’t draft exclusively with pros, so there’s a high chance this card is passed accidentally because the white mana symbols weren’t read properly. For that reason alone, I won’t cut Wrath for it. But maybe you should depending on your playgroup!
I’m not trying to be a design boomer here, it’s great and hype and cool, but the strictly better design space used in quite a handful of these MH2 cards is grossly unnecessary and a little rude, lol.
I don't think I would consider this strictly better. Sure, it is modal, but it is definitely an Either/Or and I don't think that inherently makes it a strictly better. Most certainly a creep up in power level though.
Personally, I have no intentions of cutting any wrath effect for this card. I read this card at surface level: BB destroy target creature. That is where I am going to slot this card in. The Overload is an inherent perk of the card if someone who is in W wants to use it without dipping into B and if the person dips into both, they have a lot of flexibility in colors where I think that flexibility is actually pretty important. I love that I can slot this into a B card slot and let people enjoy each aspect of its multi-color nature while not forcing them into WB, ad they still can get what they want from the card. The modal nature of this card is pretty incredible when it comes to allowing players to make meaningful choices - and that is a beautiful thing.
As for boomer cube mentality, I used to be like this. In many ways I still am, as I tend to choose fewer cards from some of these new sets than a lot of people do. However I will say that I think sometimes you just have to let that go and remember that nostalgia is important and is not necessarily lost with the inclusion of new, meaningful, additions.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
In many ways I still am, as I tend to choose fewer cards from some of these new sets than a lot of people do.
This is really where I'm at. If a card isn't a windmill slam I don't really want to include it. I can just wait for the next set to release more windmill slams. I think this card just happens to be one.
It's not strictly better, but it is definitely better than Wrath of God. There are at least a few meaningful interactions in the cube that change the way this card plays vs Wrath.
I see this as a Wrath of God first that has the option of being spot removal when you have access to the mana and it's the right play. I think it's a good white card, a subpar black card, and an amazing card due to the added flexibility.
Yeah I think people are underestimating how often the single target spell will be cast. If you're just black and need a meh removal spell, this will do it. If you're Orzhov, it's going to be really nice to be able to remove a problematic creature while preserving your own board presence. Yeah, the wrath mode is fantastic and Wx decks will take it if they want a wrath and aren't black, but the single target mode of this card is a huge upside.
Interesting, I assumed this was a spot removal spell first and a wrath as a bonus. Mentally, I was going to finally replace one of the spot removal spells like doom blade. The card doesn't take an Orzhov slot since, to me, it's too generic.
if 1 drop aggressive decks will be punished too much. I could see a world where 1 drop aggressive decks would need to rely more on cards like Bedlam Reveler, Treasure Cruise, Hazoret the Fervent, Armageddon, Experimental Frenzy to take advantage of their low CMC + tempo rather than ability to play 1 drops unanswered.
It does Lower their stock a smidge but in my experiences, aggressive decks have among the highest win rate with a relatively less complex drafting skill requirement.
I’m not at all worried about their ability to compete.
I just wouldn't put it in a multicolor slot because the modal design of the card isn't really something that requires you to be in both colors. Seems like a waste of a good guild slot.
Even if you want to consider it a wrath first and a spot removal spell second - slot it in white then...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
A card that is good in “W but not B” decks and “B but not W” decks, but best in WB decks, is functionally hybrid. So do with it whatever you do with hybrids.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Where have people landed on categorising this card? Considering just calling it a white card
Are people casting it for its regular cost?
I see this card as significantly different than a hybrid Orzhov card, so it isn't occupying a guild slot for me. You can cast either half in an Orzhov deck, but it's also extremely maindeckable in a mono-white deck, while middling in a mono-black deck. When I can find room for it, I'll be using one of my 10 "rainbow slots" where all my hybrid cards & weirdly-colored cards go. It's like a tiny chunk of cards that I can use however I want & break rules lol
I put it in Orzhov slot for now, replacing Vindicate. Lingering Soul is too strong, and Lurrus to me is just as strong as vindicate but a lot more unique. I can't rule out having strictly better wrath of god for my cube, so Damn over Vindicate it is.
If I ever want to free up a lot, it'll probably be a white card in my cube. It's Wrath of God mode is going to use so often and it's going to get swipe by white deck a lot more than black deck.
I'm real loose on my classification and don't have strong symmetry requirements, so I don't care for myself.
If I was being tougher on my classification, but still didn't want to restrict myself I'd put it as a white card , or a "hybrid" card.
It all depends on whatever standard you hold yourself to I guess
- Solitude
- Flame Tongue Yearling
- Damn
- Portable Hole
- Subtlety
- Prismatic Ending
if 1 drop aggressive decks will be punished too much. I could see a world where 1 drop aggressive decks would need to rely more on cards like Bedlam Reveler, Treasure Cruise, Hazoret the Fervent, Armageddon, Experimental Frenzy to take advantage of their low CMC + tempo rather than ability to play 1 drops unanswered.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think this is a reasonable concern - it's been on my mind as well. We may have some time, as wtwlf points out, and really we might not want to go wild before having the chance to actually play these cards and just observe how things go ... but it's probably worth thinking about. Do you think 1-drop density will need to be boosted? Should we try to find more cards as potent as Armageddon to help top aggro off? Both? Probably worth a thread but I'm not sure how to really kick off that discussion.
I would like the latter. I personally would revisit some of the higher CMC cuts such as Experimental Frenzy that was great for Red Aggro/ Green-Red lands, but was ultimately cut because the cube cannot support too many high CMC options.
I like the trend that the general curve of the cube is trending downwards with more efficient lower CMC spells + flexible alternative cast spells. There are a lot more answers for the artifact fast mana, planeswalkers/ reanimator targets allowing aggressive strategies to be more disruptive than purely aggressive.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
At the same time as these modal cards with early game modes are being printed, recent aggro cards have also been printed with late game potential: Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, Flamescroll Celebrant, Usher of the Fallen, Skyclave Shade, and not to mention all the rabblemaster variants that single handely can end games if you don't have an answer.
The ones with value outnumber those without. So perhaps Aggro is naturally adapting to the super efficient removal cards with value and recursive cards.
I’m not trying to be a design boomer here, it’s great and hype and cool, but the strictly better design space used in quite a handful of these MH2 cards is grossly unnecessary and a little rude, lol.
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
I don't think I would consider this strictly better. Sure, it is modal, but it is definitely an Either/Or and I don't think that inherently makes it a strictly better. Most certainly a creep up in power level though.
Personally, I have no intentions of cutting any wrath effect for this card. I read this card at surface level: BB destroy target creature. That is where I am going to slot this card in. The Overload is an inherent perk of the card if someone who is in W wants to use it without dipping into B and if the person dips into both, they have a lot of flexibility in colors where I think that flexibility is actually pretty important. I love that I can slot this into a B card slot and let people enjoy each aspect of its multi-color nature while not forcing them into WB, ad they still can get what they want from the card. The modal nature of this card is pretty incredible when it comes to allowing players to make meaningful choices - and that is a beautiful thing.
As for boomer cube mentality, I used to be like this. In many ways I still am, as I tend to choose fewer cards from some of these new sets than a lot of people do. However I will say that I think sometimes you just have to let that go and remember that nostalgia is important and is not necessarily lost with the inclusion of new, meaningful, additions.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
This is really where I'm at. If a card isn't a windmill slam I don't really want to include it. I can just wait for the next set to release more windmill slams. I think this card just happens to be one.
Avatar by Hakai Studios
I see this as a Wrath of God first that has the option of being spot removal when you have access to the mana and it's the right play. I think it's a good white card, a subpar black card, and an amazing card due to the added flexibility.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
360 Uncommons only Cube!
It does Lower their stock a smidge but in my experiences, aggressive decks have among the highest win rate with a relatively less complex drafting skill requirement.
I’m not at all worried about their ability to compete.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Even if you want to consider it a wrath first and a spot removal spell second - slot it in white then...
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
My Cube:Cardinal Custom Cube
A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
Are people casting it for its regular cost?
I see this card as significantly different than a hybrid Orzhov card, so it isn't occupying a guild slot for me. You can cast either half in an Orzhov deck, but it's also extremely maindeckable in a mono-white deck, while middling in a mono-black deck. When I can find room for it, I'll be using one of my 10 "rainbow slots" where all my hybrid cards & weirdly-colored cards go. It's like a tiny chunk of cards that I can use however I want & break rules lol
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
If I ever want to free up a lot, it'll probably be a white card in my cube. It's Wrath of God mode is going to use so often and it's going to get swipe by white deck a lot more than black deck.
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
If I was being tougher on my classification, but still didn't want to restrict myself I'd put it as a white card , or a "hybrid" card.
It all depends on whatever standard you hold yourself to I guess
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg