Am I crazy in thinking that at the 4 mana mode the new Tourach is just better than this guy? Very different effects of course (and the extra black pip can be brutal), but what do we all think is more powerful on turn 4+ - thoughtseize or hymn?
For me this card you can do Shenanigans since it is an ETB effect. This card is way more versatile and flexible than new Tourach.
I have dreams of putting this under a Vat and using it on my opponent's draw step.
Am I crazy in thinking that at the 4 mana mode the new Tourach is just better than this guy? Very different effects of course (and the extra black pip can be brutal), but what do we all think is more powerful on turn 4+ - thoughtseize or hymn?
For me this card you can do Shenanigans since it is an ETB effect. This card is way more versatile and flexible than new Tourach.
I have dreams of putting this under a Vat and using it on my opponent's draw step.
Yeah no blink for Tourach is a big bummer, but blink is a very light theme in my cube (although syngeries with clones and reainimates are important).
I'm surprised there was never any follow up to this discussion in the past two years. I think it's safe to say that Grief ended up as a staple due to its powerful Thoughtseize effect, versatility of its evoke cost, and appreciation of recursion / blink effects. The black 4-cmc slot has historically been one of the weaker slots in cube (especially with its creatures), but it's really turned around over the past few years. I see Grief / Rankle / Sheoldred in pretty much every MTGO Vintage Cube style list, not to mention that black has three creatures that are 4-cmc initiative enablers (I'm currently playing two of them).
In the past 207 drafts of my cube since 2021 (release of NEO), Grief is tied as the #4 most represented black card in my 3-0 archive:
Demonic Tutor: 24
Mind Twist: 21
Thoughtseize: 19
Reanimate: 19
Vampiric Tutor: 18
Recurring Nightmare: 18
Grief: 18
Regarding the MH2 evoke creature cycle, I feel like the only card that was universally rated correctly off the bat was Solitude. Fury was extremely polarizing, Endurance / Subtlety were pretty underestimated (although still the worst 2 of the cycle, IMO), and Grief was somewhere in the middle. I originally predicted that Fury / Solitude / Grief were going to be allstars and that Endurance / Subtlety were better than they looked. I feel like the only thing I got wrong was that Subtlety is probably the worst of the cycle instead of Endurance, but both are still solid in their own right. Here's how the dust settled in the past 207 drafts with the evoke cycle in my cube:
Yeah the whole cycle has been incredible and are completely back breaking with Ephemerate, whether it's to keep them alive with the Evoke triggers or just rebuying their crazy ETB effects.
I've definitely had a turn 1 Grief Ephemerate and it's one of the most grotesque plays I've seen
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
For me this card you can do Shenanigans since it is an ETB effect. This card is way more versatile and flexible than new Tourach.
I have dreams of putting this under a Vat and using it on my opponent's draw step.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
Yeah no blink for Tourach is a big bummer, but blink is a very light theme in my cube (although syngeries with clones and reainimates are important).
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
In the past 207 drafts of my cube since 2021 (release of NEO), Grief is tied as the #4 most represented black card in my 3-0 archive:
Demonic Tutor: 24
Mind Twist: 21
Thoughtseize: 19
Reanimate: 19
Vampiric Tutor: 18
Recurring Nightmare: 18
Grief: 18
Regarding the MH2 evoke creature cycle, I feel like the only card that was universally rated correctly off the bat was Solitude. Fury was extremely polarizing, Endurance / Subtlety were pretty underestimated (although still the worst 2 of the cycle, IMO), and Grief was somewhere in the middle. I originally predicted that Fury / Solitude / Grief were going to be allstars and that Endurance / Subtlety were better than they looked. I feel like the only thing I got wrong was that Subtlety is probably the worst of the cycle instead of Endurance, but both are still solid in their own right. Here's how the dust settled in the past 207 drafts with the evoke cycle in my cube:
Fury: 27
Solitude: 19
Grief: 18
Subtlety: 13
Endurance: 11
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I've definitely had a turn 1 Grief Ephemerate and it's one of the most grotesque plays I've seen