I really love this card and plan on playing it. This instantly creates an army for you at a decent rate that just gets better the more damage you end up stopping. Looking at the rates for this thing:
Poor rate: 1-2 damage
If you’re spending five mana to stop 2 damage and make 2 2/1 fliers, that’s not efficient.
Fine rate: 3-4 damage
At stopping 4 damage, you’re putting 4 2/1s out, that’s 8 evasive damage, for five mana.
Great rate: 5-6
You get it, but stopping a 3/3 and a 2/2 (a small attack) can net you five flying 2/1s. At five mana this is great!
Absurd: 7+
This is absolutely busted when stopping this kind of swing, and this will basically win you the game at this rate.
I‘m sure there are a lot of you with tight multicolored sections. This card does rely on a lot of factors outside your control, requires a huge amount of open mana (which is easily telegraphed), and is not proactive. HOWEVER it looks like a blast to play and I’m going to give it a spin for awhile. Thoughts?
Best possible answer to a Craterhoof Behemoth. The reversal potential is strong, but the fact that you have to rely on your opponent hitting you for a good amount of damage is a huge strike against it for me. Seems too unreliable for 1v1, IMO, but you'll feel like a god every time you steal a game with this. I wouldn't play this over something like Blot Out the Sky, which you have much more control over.
Just to clarify, combat damage includes to your creatures?
I'm asking is if I swing in with a 4/4 into your 4/3, and you block, then I cast this prior to damage is assigned, do I get 4 tokens?
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I'm not a huge fan of this - in particular let me bring up these three cards from experience:
Opposition Agent - Outside of Wishclaw Talisman, there isn't really a way to abuse it. Very swingy. Its incredibly Feast or Famine - very unfun for both players. Less welcomed in Cube
Notion Thief - Very Swingy, but could be used as a combo with Wheel effects. It is often a build around rather than a feast or famine hate bear. Fun combo enabler. Good in Cube
Leovold, Emissary of Trest - Somewhat Swingy, less of a build around considering its tight mana requirements + not in red for Wheel/ Dack. Feels more as a Feast or Famine style effect considering its less paired with wheel effects compared to Notion Thief. Passable in Cube.
This feels too much like Opposition Agent from my play experience. The saving grace is Orzhov is becoming more of a control color than a aristocrats color in recent sets. But it is an unfortunate pass for me.
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I doubt I'll be running this but it does seem like impactful and fun for sure. Even blocking three damage gives you a formidable swing back the next turn, and given that every archetype in cube is pretty much winning via combat damage, it won't be a dead card for its cost. Unless your opponent is chipping you to death with nothing but a 1/1 or 2/2 this probably is worth sitting on with 3WB up, to the exclusion of any other lines of play, as any substantial swing is going to have a relatively lethal retaliation. Cool card.
Opposition Agent - Outside of Wishclaw Talisman, there isn't really a way to abuse it. Very swingy. Its incredibly Feast or Famine - very unfun for both players. Less welcomed in Cube
Notion Thief - Very Swingy, but could be used as a combo with Wheel effects. It is often a build around rather than a feast or famine hate bear. Fun combo enabler. Good in Cube
Leovold, Emissary of Trest - Somewhat Swingy, less of a build around considering its tight mana requirements + not in red for Wheel/ Dack. Feels more as a Feast or Famine style effect considering its less paired with wheel effects compared to Notion Thief. Passable in Cube.
This feels too much like Opposition Agent from my play experience. The saving grace is Orzhov is becoming more of a control color than a aristocrats color in recent sets. But it is an unfortunate pass for me.
I guess I‘m a little confused by these comparisons. These cards are all a lot more narrow than Inkshield, in my opinion. Requiring an opponent to swing at you with creatures is not a big ask, I’d say it happens most turns. It’s certainly a more common occurrence than an opponent searching their library or drawing extra cards. I happen to like all the cards you mentioned, and like them all more than this particular card, but they are all doing something very different than this.
I do see you mention feast or famine type cards, but I think there’s a lot more of middle ground with this one.
Opposition Agent - Outside of Wishclaw Talisman, there isn't really a way to abuse it. Very swingy. Its incredibly Feast or Famine - very unfun for both players. Less welcomed in Cube
Notion Thief - Very Swingy, but could be used as a combo with Wheel effects. It is often a build around rather than a feast or famine hate bear. Fun combo enabler. Good in Cube
Leovold, Emissary of Trest - Somewhat Swingy, less of a build around considering its tight mana requirements + not in red for Wheel/ Dack. Feels more as a Feast or Famine style effect considering its less paired with wheel effects compared to Notion Thief. Passable in Cube.
This feels too much like Opposition Agent from my play experience. The saving grace is Orzhov is becoming more of a control color than a aristocrats color in recent sets. But it is an unfortunate pass for me.
I guess I‘m a little confused by these comparisons. These cards are all a lot more narrow than Inkshield, in my opinion. Requiring an opponent to swing at you with creatures is not a big ask, I’d say it happens most turns. It’s certainly a more common occurrence than an opponent searching their library or drawing extra cards. I happen to like all the cards you mentioned, and like them all more than this particular card, but they are all doing something very different than this.
I do see you mention feast or famine type cards, but I think there’s a lot more of middle ground with this one.
I'd argue the exact opposite:
- Leovold is a very different beast all together. While denying your opponent's draws can be matchup dependent, his triggered ability casts a much wider net.
- The creatures at least have the floor of being a creature where this can be absolutely deadweight in some scenarios and can't help you break a stalemate. That makes this the most feast and famine of the bunch IMO since its floor is literally a zero and its the most expensive option.
Just to clarify, combat damage includes to your creatures?
I'm asking is if I swing in with a 4/4 into your 4/3, and you block, then I cast this prior to damage is assigned, do I get 4 tokens?
No, this does not work with creatures that you're blocking with, only combat damage that would be dealt to you.
While you don't get any extra tokens, you CAN use this to allow all the good combat trades to still occur. So you can block and kill one attacker, and prevent the damage that would be dealt to you. It makes less tokens, but there might be situations where you want to kill off an attacker instead, and this only fogs the player damage.
For example, if the opponent swings with 3 2/2s into your lone 2/3 blocker, you can choose to fog all 6 damage and make 6 tokens, or you could choose to block and kill one of the attackers, and fog 4 damage, making 4 tokens and killing a creature instead.
- Leovold is a very different beast all together. While denying your opponent's draws can be matchup dependent, his triggered ability casts a much wider net.
- The creatures at least have the floor of being a creature where this can be absolutely deadweight in some scenarios and can't help you break a stalemate. That makes this the most feast and famine of the bunch IMO since its floor is literally a zero and its the most expensive option.
I just don’t see how any of these comparisons are relevant. Comparing this card to creatures with triggered abilities just... doesn’t make any sense? They are cheaper, are creatures, and do completely different things than this card. And past their failsafe floor, the reasons people run those cards is FOR their triggered abilities, which DO come up less often than plain old combat. I realize you didn’t initially make the comparisons, but „Is this better or more narrow than Leovold“ feels like a strange conversation to have about a 5 mana token making combat trick.
Back to the card itself, if I’d throw comparisons around I’d look at similar play patterns like Settle the Wreckage or similar mana value and non-creature type like Fractured Identity which incidentally both need your opponent to do or have something in order to work well. Fractured Identity is best when targeting a big cool thing. This card is best when stopping a big swing. They can both be used in worst case scenarios on a small creature or small swing, and they are both DEAD without their conditions being met, but the potential upside is worth it. Sure, Fractured is better than this card, but it’s one of the best gold cards out there. I’d even say the rate is similar for outcome (1-2 cmc card fractured/Inksheild damage prevented: poor rate, 3-4 cmc/damage: fine rate, 5-6: Great, 7+: absurd).
I understand this isn’t good when you’re ahead or at parity, but neither is a Wrath, and those can’t win you the game. If this is deadweight, you’re in a good spot. Speaking of Wraths, this is in the colors for them, so choosing to not attack and advance your board when your opponent has mana for this isn’t really an option.
This spell gives you double the power that would have hit you split evenly across evasive bodies. This can overwhelm really easily one of two ways- you turn into the aggressor OR you make further combat a nightmare for your opponent.
Again- I totally get not running this, slots are tight and this is situational, but my instinct is this is undervalued.
Back to the card itself, if I’d throw comparisons around I’d look at similar play patterns like Settle the Wreckage or similar mana value and non-creature type like Fractured Identity which incidentally both need your opponent to do or have something in order to work well. Fractured Identity is best when targeting a big cool thing. This card is best when stopping a big swing. They can both be used in worst case scenarios on a small creature or small swing, and they are both DEAD without their conditions being met, but the potential upside is worth it. Sure, Fractured is better than this card, but it’s one of the best gold cards out there. I’d even say the rate is similar for outcome (1-2 cmc card fractured/Inksheild damage prevented: poor rate, 3-4 cmc/damage: fine rate, 5-6: Great, 7+: absurd).
Settle is a much better comparison. T
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I really love this card and plan on playing it. This instantly creates an army for you at a decent rate that just gets better the more damage you end up stopping. Looking at the rates for this thing:
Poor rate: 1-2 damage
If you’re spending five mana to stop 2 damage and make 2 2/1 fliers, that’s not efficient.
Fine rate: 3-4 damage
At stopping 4 damage, you’re putting 4 2/1s out, that’s 8 evasive damage, for five mana.
Great rate: 5-6
You get it, but stopping a 3/3 and a 2/2 (a small attack) can net you five flying 2/1s. At five mana this is great!
Absurd: 7+
This is absolutely busted when stopping this kind of swing, and this will basically win you the game at this rate.
I‘m sure there are a lot of you with tight multicolored sections. This card does rely on a lot of factors outside your control, requires a huge amount of open mana (which is easily telegraphed), and is not proactive. HOWEVER it looks like a blast to play and I’m going to give it a spin for awhile. Thoughts?
Un-Spiracy Module - http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/63204
Utility Land Module - http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/53258
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I'm asking is if I swing in with a 4/4 into your 4/3, and you block, then I cast this prior to damage is assigned, do I get 4 tokens?
-----------------
I'm not a huge fan of this - in particular let me bring up these three cards from experience:
Opposition Agent - Outside of Wishclaw Talisman, there isn't really a way to abuse it. Very swingy. Its incredibly Feast or Famine - very unfun for both players. Less welcomed in Cube
Notion Thief - Very Swingy, but could be used as a combo with Wheel effects. It is often a build around rather than a feast or famine hate bear. Fun combo enabler. Good in Cube
Leovold, Emissary of Trest - Somewhat Swingy, less of a build around considering its tight mana requirements + not in red for Wheel/ Dack. Feels more as a Feast or Famine style effect considering its less paired with wheel effects compared to Notion Thief. Passable in Cube.
This feels too much like Opposition Agent from my play experience. The saving grace is Orzhov is becoming more of a control color than a aristocrats color in recent sets. But it is an unfortunate pass for me.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
No, this does not work with creatures that you're blocking with, only combat damage that would be dealt to you.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
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I guess I‘m a little confused by these comparisons. These cards are all a lot more narrow than Inkshield, in my opinion. Requiring an opponent to swing at you with creatures is not a big ask, I’d say it happens most turns. It’s certainly a more common occurrence than an opponent searching their library or drawing extra cards. I happen to like all the cards you mentioned, and like them all more than this particular card, but they are all doing something very different than this.
I do see you mention feast or famine type cards, but I think there’s a lot more of middle ground with this one.
Un-Spiracy Module - http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/63204
Utility Land Module - http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/53258
I'd argue the exact opposite:
- Leovold is a very different beast all together. While denying your opponent's draws can be matchup dependent, his triggered ability casts a much wider net.
- The creatures at least have the floor of being a creature where this can be absolutely deadweight in some scenarios and can't help you break a stalemate. That makes this the most feast and famine of the bunch IMO since its floor is literally a zero and its the most expensive option.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
While you don't get any extra tokens, you CAN use this to allow all the good combat trades to still occur. So you can block and kill one attacker, and prevent the damage that would be dealt to you. It makes less tokens, but there might be situations where you want to kill off an attacker instead, and this only fogs the player damage.
For example, if the opponent swings with 3 2/2s into your lone 2/3 blocker, you can choose to fog all 6 damage and make 6 tokens, or you could choose to block and kill one of the attackers, and fog 4 damage, making 4 tokens and killing a creature instead.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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I just don’t see how any of these comparisons are relevant. Comparing this card to creatures with triggered abilities just... doesn’t make any sense? They are cheaper, are creatures, and do completely different things than this card. And past their failsafe floor, the reasons people run those cards is FOR their triggered abilities, which DO come up less often than plain old combat. I realize you didn’t initially make the comparisons, but „Is this better or more narrow than Leovold“ feels like a strange conversation to have about a 5 mana token making combat trick.
Back to the card itself, if I’d throw comparisons around I’d look at similar play patterns like Settle the Wreckage or similar mana value and non-creature type like Fractured Identity which incidentally both need your opponent to do or have something in order to work well. Fractured Identity is best when targeting a big cool thing. This card is best when stopping a big swing. They can both be used in worst case scenarios on a small creature or small swing, and they are both DEAD without their conditions being met, but the potential upside is worth it. Sure, Fractured is better than this card, but it’s one of the best gold cards out there. I’d even say the rate is similar for outcome (1-2 cmc card fractured/Inksheild damage prevented: poor rate, 3-4 cmc/damage: fine rate, 5-6: Great, 7+: absurd).
I understand this isn’t good when you’re ahead or at parity, but neither is a Wrath, and those can’t win you the game. If this is deadweight, you’re in a good spot. Speaking of Wraths, this is in the colors for them, so choosing to not attack and advance your board when your opponent has mana for this isn’t really an option.
This spell gives you double the power that would have hit you split evenly across evasive bodies. This can overwhelm really easily one of two ways- you turn into the aggressor OR you make further combat a nightmare for your opponent.
Again- I totally get not running this, slots are tight and this is situational, but my instinct is this is undervalued.
Un-Spiracy Module - http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/63204
Utility Land Module - http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/53258
Settle is a much better comparison. T
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i