Surprised that there's no thread about this card - I think it's a serious competitor for the Glorybringer / Thundermaw Hellkite slot. The first attack immediately refunds 2 mana making it really a 3 mana investment similar to Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. If the opponent targets it on their main phase, suddenly you have Cryptic Command mana.
The card obviously plays very well in Izzet with countermagic to protect it and card draw to take advantage of the mana generation.
It is a very sweet card indeed, but while it does save you somewhat on mana, I found the impact condensed into a single card of Glorybringer or Thundermaw Hellkite to be more appealing. The mana of Goldspan Dragon is only useful if you have cards to spend that mana on. Thus, while good, Goldspan Dragon shines when you are not out of gas or when you can comfortably wait for your investment to pay off later in the game. Glorybringer and Hellkite are insane topdecks and have big impact on the board, which is what I want out of my flying red 5-drop.
Goldspan Dragon seems very good to me, but slots into a Deck I feel has no need for it, although it would be good. Hellkite/Glorybringer are more important to the archetypes in my Cube. All this is theorycrafting however, since I never actually cubed with Goldspan Dragon.
PS: Am I the only one getting the impression that Goldspan Dragon is actually pet-size? Something in the artwork makes it feel super tiny, which is cute.
Haha yeah I think it's the thick short neck that makes it look wee.
I've been liking it a lot and it's been reminding me of primeval titan and teferi-5. PT in the sense that it's a threat they have to deal with that is also ramping you (and keeps ramping you the longer it lives), and teferi in the sense mentioned by OP, that it's a 5 that sorta costs net 3. I like GD's mid-turn treasure a bit better than Teferi-5's EOT untap b/c the treasure lets you double spell the turn it comes down.
Thundermaw's 5th toughness is important for Wildfire.
Unfortunately, every slot is is way too competitive. Its sad so many "almost good enough" cards are getting cut left and right.
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Thundermaw's 5th toughness is important for Wildfire.
Unfortunately, every slot is is way too competitive. Its sad so many "almost good enough" cards are getting cut left and right.
I actually think that's great! It diversifies even higher powered Cubes (maybe not the absolute top, but that is almost undoable) and so in most Cubes there is some card that reflects preferences of the playgroup or the curator that is defensible.
Good point about Wildfire.
I recently cut Wildfire / Burning as I didn't feel the need to support it at 360.
With the Wildfire package, I would agree that Thundermaw should get the nod, but without it I think both Goldspan Dragon and Glorybringer are better cards.
With the Wildfire package, I would agree that Thundermaw should get the nod, but without it I think both Goldspan Dragon and Glorybringer are better cards.
Can't say I fully agree with Glorybringer / Goldspan Dragon being better cards than Thundermaw Hellkite even without the Wildfire package. Thundermaw Hellkite is still the deadliest / most destructive 5-cmc red dragon out there with the fastest clock. While Goldspan Dragon does have some nice synergies with artifacts and ramping in general, having the least destructive power of the three makes it the worst of the 3 in my book overall.
Thundermaw Hellkite zapping X/1s in the air is huge for closing out the game, making it very difficult to wall. Most things in the air are either a 1/1 or a 4/4, which makes it near contestable in the air since very few things can trade / beat it in combat. Even then, it's able to tap those creatures down when Thundermaw Hellkite ETBs anyways, which gives it a good shot at racing your opponent.
Generally, the more a card costs, the more important that card's ability to act as a win condition is. For example, take the 6-cmc Vraska, Relic Seeker vs Huntsman debate. While there are some people that prefer Vraska for her more versatile removal ability, I prefer Garruk much more because it's generally the better win condition. Goldspan Dragon has some cool side effects, but often times those can be superfluous, while Thundermaw Hellkite's / Glorybringer's removal abilities lend more towards just closing out the game.
Roughly speaking, 40% of planeswalkers tick up to 5 loyalty, 40% tick up to 4 loyalty and the remaining goes to 6+ (These are high CMC planeswalkers/ Oko etc).
This is why Magmatic Sinkhole is incredibly strong in eternal formats. For this reason, I think Thundermaw is the strongest 5 CMC dragon.
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I don't play Wildfire, and Glorybringer was solidly stronger than Thundermaw. For many decks, the extra damage over two turns isn't a huge deal, but the removal is.
I think Goldspan is worse than Glorybringer too, however.
I don't play Wildfire, and Glorybringer was solidly stronger than Thundermaw. For many decks, the extra damage over two turns isn't a huge deal, but the removal is.
I think Goldspan is worse than Glorybringer too, however.
I think the wildfire argument as a selling point for thundermaw is a weak one. Sure it's a card that can be played in that deck, but it's far from ideal. Damage isn't the name of the game for wildfire, so the dragon will have to win the game by itself or significantly disrupt what the opponents doing to be worth it (planeswalkers).
I'd rather have just about any decent planeswalker than thundermaw in my wildfire decks.
From my experience, in red agro, thundermaw is slightly better than glorybringer.. but in any remotely controlling or midrange/goodstuff/value type deck, glorybringer was much better. Izzet tempo too.
I expect goldspan to shine in shells where glorybringer did, not quite as much, but also have some artifact interactions that make it an appealing test if you are looking to mix up your red 5 slot.
In the Worlds 2017 Finals, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-qJV5NtaUc. The Temur Energy deck boarded out its Glorybringers against the Red aggro deck - my BEST GUESS for this is because of how easily it could be removed post board by Chandra Torch of Defiance.
This 4/4 toughtness makes it a step below almost all the other finishers + its inability to deal with opposing planeswalkers effectively makes Glorybringer feel a bit more like a tier 2 finisher, compared to all the other finishers.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
This 4/4 toughtness makes it a step below almost all the other finishers + its inability to deal with opposing planeswalkers effectively makes Glorybringer feel a bit more like a tier 2 finisher, compared to all the other finishers.
What are all the other finishers? If it's about 5 CMC red finishers, I would say Glorybringer stands only behind Thundermaw Hellkite. Glorybringer just has an insane ability to control the board, and for all the times Thundermaw Hellkite can attack into Consecrated Sphinx or the other mentioned creatures, Glorybringer can kill Urza, Yawgmoth, Questing Beast and a few others while also pressuring Planeswalkers or the opposing Lifetotal.
Not to say your points are not well-made, simply that there is more to consider.
and I only have room for 3 at the moment. Thundermaw is might not even make the cut.
There are so many SCD where the card is good, but the rest of the slots are just as good.
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Unfortunately that one sentence is actually enough to end a SCD.
I'm sorry, I did not intend to make it sound passive-aggressive if that was the case. I was genuinely interested in your comparison.
The problem for me with the 5 CMC finishers is that Kiki and Conscripts are somewhat tacked together. I'm cutting Kiki-Twin right now, but would actually like the Conscripts still, but I don't want to send misleading signals for drafters.
Unfortunately that one sentence is actually enough to end a SCD.
I'm sorry, I did not intend to make it sound passive-aggressive if that was the case. I was genuinely interested in your comparison.
The problem for me with the 5 CMC finishers is that Kiki and Conscripts are somewhat tacked together. I'm cutting Kiki-Twin right now, but would actually like the Conscripts still, but I don't want to send misleading signals for drafters.
I should prob apologize too - this forum is full of such awesome people - such awesome discussions. My original statement also sounded a bit too.
Kiki-twin is a weak archetype - especially with all the new blue 3 cmc cards, its really hard to justify keeping this package. Its probably on borrowed time, but its such an iconic archetype/ deck that I love that I'm not really to see it leave.
Kiki-Jiki is still pretty good for flicker decks and conscripts is a fine top end by himself, but I could see your argument for cutting them.
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This 4/4 toughtness makes it a step below almost all the other finishers + its inability to deal with opposing planeswalkers effectively makes Glorybringer feel a bit more like a tier 2 finisher, compared to all the other finishers.
Almost all removal that kills 4 toughness creatures also kills 5 toughness creatures. If your opponent has a sorcery speed removal for your dragon, Glorybringer is a 2-for-1 in your favor most of the time when Thundermaw isn't. Glorybringer is quite effective at killing planeswalkers, as it clears its own way.
From my experience, in red agro, thundermaw is slightly better than glorybringer.. but in any remotely controlling or midrange/goodstuff/value type deck, glorybringer was much better. Izzet tempo too.
Agreed, but I dislike five drops in aggro anyway. Their performance in this deck theater is not central to their evaluation.
It's ability to run down planeswalkers and act as a strong threat/ finisher on its own has been incredible in pretty much any red deck. I would play this in pretty much any red deck from aggro, midrange, control etc.
I would recommend people give this card a second try.
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Surprised that there's no thread about this card - I think it's a serious competitor for the Glorybringer / Thundermaw Hellkite slot. The first attack immediately refunds 2 mana making it really a 3 mana investment similar to Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. If the opponent targets it on their main phase, suddenly you have Cryptic Command mana.
The card obviously plays very well in Izzet with countermagic to protect it and card draw to take advantage of the mana generation.
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Goldspan Dragon seems very good to me, but slots into a Deck I feel has no need for it, although it would be good. Hellkite/Glorybringer are more important to the archetypes in my Cube. All this is theorycrafting however, since I never actually cubed with Goldspan Dragon.
PS: Am I the only one getting the impression that Goldspan Dragon is actually pet-size? Something in the artwork makes it feel super tiny, which is cute.
I've been liking it a lot and it's been reminding me of primeval titan and teferi-5. PT in the sense that it's a threat they have to deal with that is also ramping you (and keeps ramping you the longer it lives), and teferi in the sense mentioned by OP, that it's a 5 that sorta costs net 3. I like GD's mid-turn treasure a bit better than Teferi-5's EOT untap b/c the treasure lets you double spell the turn it comes down.
Unfortunately, every slot is is way too competitive. Its sad so many "almost good enough" cards are getting cut left and right.
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1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
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5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I actually think that's great! It diversifies even higher powered Cubes (maybe not the absolute top, but that is almost undoable) and so in most Cubes there is some card that reflects preferences of the playgroup or the curator that is defensible.
I recently cut Wildfire / Burning as I didn't feel the need to support it at 360.
With the Wildfire package, I would agree that Thundermaw should get the nod, but without it I think both Goldspan Dragon and Glorybringer are better cards.
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Can't say I fully agree with Glorybringer / Goldspan Dragon being better cards than Thundermaw Hellkite even without the Wildfire package. Thundermaw Hellkite is still the deadliest / most destructive 5-cmc red dragon out there with the fastest clock. While Goldspan Dragon does have some nice synergies with artifacts and ramping in general, having the least destructive power of the three makes it the worst of the 3 in my book overall.
Thundermaw Hellkite zapping X/1s in the air is huge for closing out the game, making it very difficult to wall. Most things in the air are either a 1/1 or a 4/4, which makes it near contestable in the air since very few things can trade / beat it in combat. Even then, it's able to tap those creatures down when Thundermaw Hellkite ETBs anyways, which gives it a good shot at racing your opponent.
Generally, the more a card costs, the more important that card's ability to act as a win condition is. For example, take the 6-cmc Vraska, Relic Seeker vs Huntsman debate. While there are some people that prefer Vraska for her more versatile removal ability, I prefer Garruk much more because it's generally the better win condition. Goldspan Dragon has some cool side effects, but often times those can be superfluous, while Thundermaw Hellkite's / Glorybringer's removal abilities lend more towards just closing out the game.
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But more important, its good at running into these planeswalkers after +1 activation:
Gideon Blackblade
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Teferi, Time Raveler
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Tezzeret the Seeker
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Roughly speaking, 40% of planeswalkers tick up to 5 loyalty, 40% tick up to 4 loyalty and the remaining goes to 6+ (These are high CMC planeswalkers/ Oko etc).
This is why Magmatic Sinkhole is incredibly strong in eternal formats. For this reason, I think Thundermaw is the strongest 5 CMC dragon.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I think Goldspan is worse than Glorybringer too, however.
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I think the wildfire argument as a selling point for thundermaw is a weak one. Sure it's a card that can be played in that deck, but it's far from ideal. Damage isn't the name of the game for wildfire, so the dragon will have to win the game by itself or significantly disrupt what the opponents doing to be worth it (planeswalkers).
I'd rather have just about any decent planeswalker than thundermaw in my wildfire decks.
From my experience, in red agro, thundermaw is slightly better than glorybringer.. but in any remotely controlling or midrange/goodstuff/value type deck, glorybringer was much better. Izzet tempo too.
I expect goldspan to shine in shells where glorybringer did, not quite as much, but also have some artifact interactions that make it an appealing test if you are looking to mix up your red 5 slot.
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In the Worlds 2017 Finals, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-qJV5NtaUc. The Temur Energy deck boarded out its Glorybringers against the Red aggro deck - my BEST GUESS for this is because of how easily it could be removed post board by Chandra Torch of Defiance.
Making a full list where the 4 - 5 matters (beside the Languish/ WildFire + Planeswalkers)
- Exalted Angel
- Reveillark
- Baneslayer Angel
- Cavalier of Gales
- Consecrated Sphinx
- Yorion, Sky Nomad
- Chandra, Torch of Defiance
- Flametongue Kavu
(Less Common, but worth mentioning)
- Dismissive Pyromancer
- Vedalken Shackles
This 4/4 toughtness makes it a step below almost all the other finishers + its inability to deal with opposing planeswalkers effectively makes Glorybringer feel a bit more like a tier 2 finisher, compared to all the other finishers.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
What are all the other finishers? If it's about 5 CMC red finishers, I would say Glorybringer stands only behind Thundermaw Hellkite. Glorybringer just has an insane ability to control the board, and for all the times Thundermaw Hellkite can attack into Consecrated Sphinx or the other mentioned creatures, Glorybringer can kill Urza, Yawgmoth, Questing Beast and a few others while also pressuring Planeswalkers or the opposing Lifetotal.
Not to say your points are not well-made, simply that there is more to consider.
Unfortunately that one sentence is actually enough to end a SCD.
Right now there are:
Thundermaw Hellkite
Siege-Gang Commander
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Zealous Conscripts
and I only have room for 3 at the moment. Thundermaw is might not even make the cut.
There are so many SCD where the card is good, but the rest of the slots are just as good.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I'm sorry, I did not intend to make it sound passive-aggressive if that was the case. I was genuinely interested in your comparison.
The problem for me with the 5 CMC finishers is that Kiki and Conscripts are somewhat tacked together. I'm cutting Kiki-Twin right now, but would actually like the Conscripts still, but I don't want to send misleading signals for drafters.
I should prob apologize too - this forum is full of such awesome people - such awesome discussions. My original statement also sounded a bit too.
Kiki-twin is a weak archetype - especially with all the new blue 3 cmc cards, its really hard to justify keeping this package. Its probably on borrowed time, but its such an iconic archetype/ deck that I love that I'm not really to see it leave.
Kiki-Jiki is still pretty good for flicker decks and conscripts is a fine top end by himself, but I could see your argument for cutting them.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Almost all removal that kills 4 toughness creatures also kills 5 toughness creatures. If your opponent has a sorcery speed removal for your dragon, Glorybringer is a 2-for-1 in your favor most of the time when Thundermaw isn't. Glorybringer is quite effective at killing planeswalkers, as it clears its own way.
Agreed, but I dislike five drops in aggro anyway. Their performance in this deck theater is not central to their evaluation.
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It's ability to run down planeswalkers and act as a strong threat/ finisher on its own has been incredible in pretty much any red deck. I would play this in pretty much any red deck from aggro, midrange, control etc.
I would recommend people give this card a second try.