Sublime Epiphany 4UU
Instant
Choose one or more—
• Counter target spell.
• Counter target activated or triggered ability.
• Return target nonland permanent to its owner’s hand.
• Create a token that’s a copy of target creature you control.
• Target player draws a card.
What a card! Though at 6 mana, I think this card is worthy of discussion with the added flexibility and value. I believe the ACS is 4 for 1 (Counter, Bounce, Copy, Draw.) The floor 3 for 1 (nothing to Copy), and the ceiling being countering things like Hydroid Krasis, Eldrazi Titans or other trigger-upon-casting combinations. It basically introduces everything blue tackles, with the exception of maybe Scry and Exta Turns. We got Cryptic Command at 4, Mystic Confluence at 5, and now this at 6. Maybe we'll see a version that grants Time Walk at 7 (3UUUU?) or 8...I was about to say, "Interesting card anyway," but on second thought, is it really?
I think the floor is slightly lower than 3 for 1, since it seems quite feasible to be in a situation where you have to fire it off as either a 6 mana dismiss or repulse. That said, it feels like those situations should be fairly rare, and either be where you're on the back foot, and can't wait for a better opportunity to fire it off, or already be ahead (I'm assuming if the board is empty and you're firing this off as a dismiss, it's probably good for the control player). The bigger question to me is if the typical 3 for 1 or 4 for 1 situation is worth the 6 mana expense.
This is a pretty easy pass for me. Lots of options, but in a powered Cube, I think I have stronger plays to be making in most situations where I have 6 mana.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
I will say that I can imagine a fantasy situation with this and Torrential Gearhulk that makes me drool.
counter a spell, bounce a permanent, draw a card, and make another gearhulk... which bounces the original gearhulk, draws a card, and makes another copy of the token gearhulk...
Not enough for an inclusion but darn if that wouldn’t be impressive.
I’m not saying the card is bonkers or anything, but the cost is appropriate, advantageous even.
Typically, countering a spell is worth UU.
(Countering an activates or triggered ability is U, but let’s leave this out since the two “counter” modes rarely occur simultaneously)
Returning a nonland permanent at instant speed (usually with a variety of upsides) is 1U.
Copying your own creature at instant speed (that has other random upside) is 1UU.
Drawing (at least) a card at instant speed is U.
The ACS, IMO, (counter, bounce, copy, draw) is actually worth 8cc (how many Us in the cost is beyond me.) This asks for 4UU and a single card, which, realistically, guarantees a 4 or 3 for 1. This card is very good value wise. Very good.
In a vacuum, the card is good value, sure. However, relative to the power level at 6 mana within Cube, I do not think it really competes with a lot of common inclusions and therein lies it's glaring faults.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
At least for me, 4 for 1 is a very powerful effect. All the modes are quite handy aside from maybe the copy one (or, it might even shine the most in some shells.) With that said, I do agree every slot in cube needs to be earned, especially in blue.
You've said 4-for-1 a couple of times now.... this looks like a 3-for-1 at best (in scenarios where I have a meaningful creature to copy) and a 2-for-1 other times (where it's an expensive Dismiss). Where's the 4th card coming from in typical situations? Bouncing a huge token or countering a cast trigger maybe? I just don't see it during commonly encountered situations. Maybe if the bounce tucked the target instead of returning it to hand? I must be missing something...
I guess it’s not really 4 for 1. I just imagine bouncing as a great advantage overall that’s maybe worth a card. I admit it’s not really card advantage (but tempo.) My point is, it will rarely be just an expensive dismiss.
It's a one card combo with Arcane Savant (gotta draft them both, but still).
Bounce all their nonland permanents, make infinite creatures, and draw your deck.
Edit: actually you can just mill them out, no need to even attack.
I'm actually going to give this card a try. Creating a token of target card you control sounds pretty cool. I could see counter - Bounce - Draw - Copy as a very good build around ceiling.
It's a one card combo with Arcane Savant (gotta draft them both, but still).
Bounce all their nonland permanents, make infinite creatures, and draw your deck.
Edit: actually you can just mill them out, no need to even attack.
Arcane Savant has been problematic with a tucked Nexus of Fate in a Flicker deck already ...
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I really like what this card does. I'm thinking of it more as a finisher that isn't quite as flashy as the other options, but will just subtly push the whole endgame to your favor the same way. It's like a deck whose gameplan is to grind the opponent down over time, but all in one card at once instead. Going to try this out with hope.
I think this card is quite win-more. It does a poor job at stabilizing from a bad board position. It would be so much better if it was able to copy an opponents creature. In multiplayer it will be a good swing and I adore the synergy with Torrential Gearhulk.
This is normally a card I like. lots of options, spell that can make threats.
But the thing is I want nothing to do with 6 mana cards that can be done for much cheaper. As much as I think mystic confluence is a bomb, 6 is so much mana for something not named upheaval. It would be unbelievably more awesome as a modular card that only cost 6 if you could choose 2 for 4.
Cryptic Command can hit a land and tap all creatures of an opponent to swing to victory or to slow down aggro. They are both modal spells, but still different enough regarding their modes. Mystic Confluence was a commander product and this new card smells like it was meant for commander too. That doesn't mean it sucks in a traditional cube, Mystic Confluence is a great card! I just think that in a vacuum, Confluence (and Cryptic Command) are just better cards that have a much more favourable worst case scenario.
I will try it out though
Attacking with your midrange creature, bouncing a blocker while also getting a copy of your creature (untapped) and a card - that is quite solid for 6 mana. Also, creating a surprise blocker that can kill an attacker would be even better. I am just not sure how useful the counter mode is, 6 Mana for a counterspell that creates a body can be solid, Draining Whelk is still playable in average powered cubes. But it is also easier to abuse. Not sure, testing will show.
Arcane Savant has been problematic with a tucked Nexus of Fate in a Flicker deck already ...
The only reason I still feel comfortable running Savant is because we don't run any of the time warp variants, so the most broken thing it can be is a 5-mana repeatable upheaval, which don't get me wrong is bonkers, but generally speaking if the upheaval deck gets to resolve upheaval the way it wants to it usually wins anyway. But it's WAY to easy to go infinite with Savant and time warps if you run them.
I also think I will test this card is it's fun and not an embarrassing power level, but I also have not played cube since the beginning of March (none of my regular group is in-house and the various programs are just so annoying to use). So many new cards added since then! I need to CUBE!
I think this card is quite win-more. It does a poor job at stabilizing from a bad board position. It would be so much better if it was able to copy an opponents creature. In multiplayer it will be a good swing and I adore the synergy with Torrential Gearhulk.
I think we should evaluate this card more like a blue sphinx's relevant that the control deck uses to pull ahead in terms of card advantage.
It just looks like an incredibly fun card with a lot of potential.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I've seen Ryan Overturf call this card too good for lower power cubes, so just wondering what people's opinions are with this card after a year. It still seems like a lot of mana for what it does.
I've seen Ryan Overturf call this card too good for lower power cubes, so just wondering what people's opinions are with this card after a year. It still seems like a lot of mana for what it does.
Wow did he really say that? This card never seemed that good to me, so we didn’t test it, but I’m open to try it if others have had positive success.
Sublime Epiphany
4UU
Instant
Choose one or more—
• Counter target spell.
• Counter target activated or triggered ability.
• Return target nonland permanent to its owner’s hand.
• Create a token that’s a copy of target creature you control.
• Target player draws a card.
What a card! Though at 6 mana, I think this card is worthy of discussion with the added flexibility and value. I believe the ACS is 4 for 1 (Counter, Bounce, Copy, Draw.) The floor 3 for 1 (nothing to Copy), and the ceiling being countering things like Hydroid Krasis, Eldrazi Titans or other trigger-upon-casting combinations. It basically introduces everything blue tackles, with the exception of maybe Scry and Exta Turns. We got Cryptic Command at 4, Mystic Confluence at 5, and now this at 6. Maybe we'll see a version that grants Time Walk at 7 (3UUUU?) or 8...I was about to say, "Interesting card anyway," but on second thought, is it really?
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
counter a spell, bounce a permanent, draw a card, and make another gearhulk... which bounces the original gearhulk, draws a card, and makes another copy of the token gearhulk...
Not enough for an inclusion but darn if that wouldn’t be impressive.
Typically, countering a spell is worth UU.
(Countering an activates or triggered ability is U, but let’s leave this out since the two “counter” modes rarely occur simultaneously)
Returning a nonland permanent at instant speed (usually with a variety of upsides) is 1U.
Copying your own creature at instant speed (that has other random upside) is 1UU.
Drawing (at least) a card at instant speed is U.
The ACS, IMO, (counter, bounce, copy, draw) is actually worth 8cc (how many Us in the cost is beyond me.) This asks for 4UU and a single card, which, realistically, guarantees a 4 or 3 for 1. This card is very good value wise. Very good.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think this will be a sweet Commander card.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Bounce all their nonland permanents, make infinite creatures, and draw your deck.
Edit: actually you can just mill them out, no need to even attack.
Arcane Savant has been problematic with a tucked Nexus of Fate in a Flicker deck already ...
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
But the thing is I want nothing to do with 6 mana cards that can be done for much cheaper. As much as I think mystic confluence is a bomb, 6 is so much mana for something not named upheaval. It would be unbelievably more awesome as a modular card that only cost 6 if you could choose 2 for 4.
EDIT: But then I guess that makes it largely better than Cryptic Command.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Mystic Confluence was a commander product and this new card smells like it was meant for commander too. That doesn't mean it sucks in a traditional cube, Mystic Confluence is a great card! I just think that in a vacuum, Confluence (and Cryptic Command) are just better cards that have a much more favourable worst case scenario.
I will try it out though
Attacking with your midrange creature, bouncing a blocker while also getting a copy of your creature (untapped) and a card - that is quite solid for 6 mana. Also, creating a surprise blocker that can kill an attacker would be even better. I am just not sure how useful the counter mode is, 6 Mana for a counterspell that creates a body can be solid, Draining Whelk is still playable in average powered cubes. But it is also easier to abuse. Not sure, testing will show.
It seems on the same power level as torrential gearhulk to me,
I think it's probably a bit better than this thread gives it credit for.
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
The only reason I still feel comfortable running Savant is because we don't run any of the time warp variants, so the most broken thing it can be is a 5-mana repeatable upheaval, which don't get me wrong is bonkers, but generally speaking if the upheaval deck gets to resolve upheaval the way it wants to it usually wins anyway. But it's WAY to easy to go infinite with Savant and time warps if you run them.
I also think I will test this card is it's fun and not an embarrassing power level, but I also have not played cube since the beginning of March (none of my regular group is in-house and the various programs are just so annoying to use). So many new cards added since then! I need to CUBE!
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I think we should evaluate this card more like a blue sphinx's relevant that the control deck uses to pull ahead in terms of card advantage.
It just looks like an incredibly fun card with a lot of potential.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Wow did he really say that? This card never seemed that good to me, so we didn’t test it, but I’m open to try it if others have had positive success.