Now that we have reached a critical mass of the namesake effect, I wanted to talk about the validity of this strategy in the cube.
The way it works is to play a cheap noncreature card that creates a creature token (it needs to be a noncreature card because you don't want to load your deck with bad Polymorph 'hits'). Then play a Polymorph effect to turn that token you created into a giant monster (of which you need to be running a few of) from your library.
Ideally, the enabler (the card that creates the food for Polymorph) will cost 3 mana or less, so the body will be available for you to sacrifice to an on-curve Polymorph effect. Ideally, the Polymorph effect won't cost more than 4 or five mana at the most (because the faster the effect happens, the more powerful it will be relative to the board state).
Now, having access to 5 good versions of this effect in the cube can help make it more consistent as an archetype for cubes that are smaller or those that draft large percentages of the pool. You'll want the other filler cards in the deck to help with consistency (draw, tutors, card selection, etc). The 6+cc ones I'm far less interested in, mostly because of the Selvala's Stampede problem. I don't think I want to spend time on a fragile multi-card combo that winds up being worse than the green 6cc version of this effect, which is both better and works with no token setup.
But you need to pair these effects with good token makers. And again, these should be able to create the token before T4 so it's available to enable an on-curve Polymorph. This isn't a problem if your only consideration was Polymorph decks. But those cards need to be good enough to play in other decks too, and you need a decent critical mass of these kinds of cards, since they're going to be stolen by other players. A preliminary list of enablers looks a bit like this:
Are all cards I currently run. But note, very few of those cards are on-color with the primary effects. They can be supplemented with some number of these cards:
Which are all semi-commonly played Cube cards that help enable Polymorph and can be played in other decks as well.
Not to mention the other cards you control that might enable these lines of play. Turning your 3cc Gideon into a creature or animating a manland and tagging it with a Polymorph works too, for example. As do Control Magic effects (why sacrifice your own creatures if you don't have to?). These work with almost all the namesake cards except for Reality Scramble, where you need to be careful not to cascade it into a potential miss (it could turn Gideon into another Gideon, or a Karn-activated Mountain Creature into a ...regular Mountain, for example). But you could also use that to your advantage in some cases too; turning your 3cc 'walker into an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon when it's the only other 'walker in your deck could be some cool tech.
***Note that I didn't fill the list with Dragon Fodders. While those cards are great enablers for Polymorph decks, they will find few other homes outside of some unenthusiastic 23rd card inclusions.
I plan on doing some extensive brainstorming/theory-crafting, playtesting and tinkering to see if I can come up with a combination of enablers and Polymorph effects that will allow the archetype to be competitive. If so, I'd like to give it a shot, because turning a creature token into an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or a Blightsteel Colossus sounds like my cup of tea, and I think M21 has finally given us the critical mass needed to explore this archetype more seriously.
It's important to note that this archetype doesn't have to exist on its own in a vacuum. Like, there's nothing wrong with pairing the Polymorph shell with Sneak Attack shenanigans or Quicksilver Amulet or Nahiri, the Harbinger to provide a little backup/redundancy to make the deck more multi-faceted. In fact, it's probably advisable, since relying on a lone Polymorph effect to win you the game might be a bit precarious.
For what it's worth, my gut still tells me no. I think it takes up a lot of real estate in the cube for a combo that's both relatively slow, and hard to reassemble if your first target is answered. Even if you are able to assemble the components needed to pull it off, is it good enough/resilient enough to win you the game? I'm not sure that it is. BUT, I do think that now that the critical mass of namesake effects is deep enough, this is worth discussing and exploring, because the effect is really unique and really fun.
I think it will be important as this archetype gets explored to include theme-adjacent support into the deck. I'm not sure that a deck that's 100% reliant on Polymorph will be able to get the job done. But using it as part of a deck that's also playing Show and Tell or Selvala's Stampede or something like that? ...we may have something going here.
Please discuss! And as always, cheers, and happy cubing!
Spitballing a few ideas: Khalni Garden and Sprout Swarm might see some play in decks outside of Polymorph. What about Squirrel Nest? Not quite on curve, but the Elspeths, Garruks, and 4cc Gideon could function in these decks.
At higher sizes I could see it. Myself at 360, while I would love to include the deck, unfortunately I don't think there's enough good token making noncreatures in the deck's primary UR colors that are worth running on their own to justify it. I would test starting at 540.
Edit: Will throw Shifting Shadow out there as a less reliable but cheaper, repeatable version of the effect
I saw Shifting Shadow, but that card looks pretty bad to me. Not only does it open me up to a potential blowout, but being forced to reattach shifting shadow to the other creature and making me kill it off sounds bad depending on what my suite of big monsters winds up being.
I agree with you that the real estate at 360 is simply too tight. I'm having a hard time at 720, lol. But of course, that's because I'm doing a lot of different things. If I was less focussed on archetypes, combos and synergy, it would be relatively easy to find room for stuff.
and allow this to be played with cards like Oath of Druids in a planeswalker, midrange stragety
2. Add this support to allow the drafting of reanimator storm:
One idea I had a while back was to have this "reanimator storm" where the deck would use this tutors, draw (loot effects), cheat into play/ reanimate effects to get a creature like:
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I'm always excited by the idea of adding a new archetype; was pleasantly surprised to see you bring this forward, wtwlf.
I hadn't realized there were so many 4-5 polymorph effects already available. I think that definitely bodes well for making this a draftable deck. The biggest hurdle at this point has already been brought up: viable token generators. It's great that most cubes have a few enablers to this deck already, but at the moment many of these appear to be in black/white, while the polymorph effects are red/blue.
My biggest fear at this point is that you not only have to get key cards, but you'll have to do so among 3+ colors and then also secure a reasonable wincon ... I think that could be a tall order. Alternative token generators exist in UR, but they tend to be subpar and might dilute the overall strength of your cube if you opt to include them.
Maybe could consider: Crow Storm if you're already supporting storm and don't mind silver-border honor the god pharaoh if you like bad cards lazotep plating curiously seems useful even if you don't end up using the token for sacrifice; like it's a way to protect your guy if not enable the combo. mask of immolation is mortarpod, and I think people liked that card for approximately 5 minutes in 2010, right? Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer seemed like a card some folks liked for a hot minute? Granted there's a delay in the token generation, but you can still go off turn 4.
Anyway, I think you've made some great observations and it might be worthwhile to keep our eyes open for more enablers in the near future. I'm curious how it ends up shaping out.
You can get fodder for the polymorph cards with control magic, treachery, vedalken shackles... and you can also add Claim the firstborn for a 2 card combo, and is not that bad with a sacrifice sub-theme.
Tell us if it works
edit to add archmage's charm and awakening zone as possible cards
Off topic: I would think that Engine should go well in combo cubes but I don't think many run it. Does that card have any interaction with your cube? Time Vault? Storm? Is there any other possibilities/potential?
Yes, the control magic effects work with (most of) the polymorph cards. But none of them are fast enough to make the list I created in the OP, which is a list of cards trying to enable a T4 Polymorph. Threads of Disloyalty could work, though... I'll make a note in the OP to kep an eye out for these kinds of cards though, because they do work in a pinch.
Yes, Awakening Zone is another card that makes a token before T4. There are LOADS of options available ...it's just a matter of finding the ones that fit best into the rest of the cube environment.
..........
I'm pretty stoked to try out Kher Keep. It's one of the best enablers for this strategy, and it can also create consistent food for Braids/Smokestack and the like, and considering all the sacrifice effects floating around for the aristocrats shells, having a land that can repeatedly make bodies for cheap will be pretty cool. Looks fun with Skullclamp too.
The good thing about the Polymorph deck is that it plays well in cubes that support a red based token deck. A lot of the cards for one feed into the other. The problem with the Polymorph deck is that it only plays well in cubes that support a red focused token deck because it needs a lot of the same cards. It's a nice bonus to a token deck, but it's narrow, and doesn't support goodstuff cubes.
Oath of Druids, Red Polymorph and enough R/G token making cards might work. Both tackle the same plan from a different angle, but could overlap too heavily.
Unless a cube already features support for tokens and OoD decks, I don't see Polymorph decks having enough speed/support to push into most cubes yet.
You're 100% right on that. The cheap token generating infrastructure is the hardest hurdle to leap. Something that I might have the real estate for at 720, but something that smaller cubes will have a hard time cultivating.
This deck is awesome, by the way, and I consider the exploration of this archetype to be a success. I recommend it if you can find the real estate for it.
This deck is awesome, by the way, and I consider the exploration of this archetype to be a success. I recommend it if you can find the real estate for it.
Great news!
Please let us know which are the must cards for the archetype!
I played a lot of Polymorph decks in Constructed and they are always fun. Though, I doubled I will ever explore it in Cube. It requires a lot of real estate space for a lot of marginal cards, and that is where I probably draw the line. Only so much space I am willing to give to weird and fun cards and they typically have to fall into more powerful archetypes for me to consider them in the first place.
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@JuiceBOX: T4 Progenitus/Blightsteel/Emrakul has been pretty powerful. The archetype hasn't been "marginal" or "weird" ...it's been very strong. Just an FYI.
I like this archtype idea, it gives the big uncastable creatures another home other than Sneak/Show and reanimator decks. My main concern is how much you need to commit to this strategy without taking away from the other archtypes. Red is the main home for this, would adding these in dilute the already existing archtypes you have?
In a small cube, probably. It takes up a lot of space, so it's not something I can see shoehorning into a smaller list without having to give something else up. You need 2-3 red slots for the Transmogrify effects alone, plus the slots taken up by the additional noncreature token makers. Not to mention the blue slots...
But if you CAN find the room, the deck can work. So in that regard, I think exploring the archetype was a success.
@JuiceBOX: T4 Progenitus/Blightsteel/Emrakul has been pretty powerful. The archetype hasn't been "marginal" or "weird" ...it's been very strong. Just an FYI.
I said marginal cards, not a marginal archetype. Any deck that can circumvent the cost of casting end-game creatures is going to be powerful when it comes together. The question is, when it does not come together - "Are the peripherals good enough for supporting other archetypes?", and I don't think that rings true enough for me to be willing to give up the real estate space for the archetype, even at 540.
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Outside of the polymorph effects themselves, the other support cards can all see play in other decks/archetypes. The list is comprised of cards that I have either cubed before (even without Polymorph effects) or are currently run by other cubes. And that's without the Polymorph support to enrich their value. Outside of Kher Keep (which is a sweet-ass card, by the way) all the cards on that list are totally defensible inclusions.
The way it works is to play a cheap noncreature card that creates a creature token (it needs to be a noncreature card because you don't want to load your deck with bad Polymorph 'hits'). Then play a Polymorph effect to turn that token you created into a giant monster (of which you need to be running a few of) from your library.
Ideally, the enabler (the card that creates the food for Polymorph) will cost 3 mana or less, so the body will be available for you to sacrifice to an on-curve Polymorph effect. Ideally, the Polymorph effect won't cost more than 4 or five mana at the most (because the faster the effect happens, the more powerful it will be relative to the board state).
So here are the list of the Polymorph effects:
Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast
Polymorph
Proteus Staff
Reality Scramble
Transmogrify
Additionally, there's these ones, but they're either expensive or narrow:
Divergent Transformations
Fireflux Squad
Indomitable Creativity
Mass Polymorph
Reweave
Shifting Shadow
Synthetic Destiny
Now, having access to 5 good versions of this effect in the cube can help make it more consistent as an archetype for cubes that are smaller or those that draft large percentages of the pool. You'll want the other filler cards in the deck to help with consistency (draw, tutors, card selection, etc). The 6+cc ones I'm far less interested in, mostly because of the Selvala's Stampede problem. I don't think I want to spend time on a fragile multi-card combo that winds up being worse than the green 6cc version of this effect, which is both better and works with no token setup.
But you need to pair these effects with good token makers. And again, these should be able to create the token before T4 so it's available to enable an on-curve Polymorph. This isn't a problem if your only consideration was Polymorph decks. But those cards need to be good enough to play in other decks too, and you need a decent critical mass of these kinds of cards, since they're going to be stolen by other players. A preliminary list of enablers looks a bit like this:
Bitterblossom
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
Lingering Souls
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Retrofitter Foundry
Sarcomancy
Shark Typhoon
Are all cards I currently run. But note, very few of those cards are on-color with the primary effects. They can be supplemented with some number of these cards:
Bastion of Remembrance
Callous Dismissal
Chandra, Acolyte of Flame
Finale of Glory
History of Benalia
Kher Keep <-!!!
Legion's Landing
Release the Gremlins
Secure the Wastes
Spectral Procession
Sprout Swarm
Tempt with Vengeance
Which are all semi-commonly played Cube cards that help enable Polymorph and can be played in other decks as well.
Not to mention the other cards you control that might enable these lines of play. Turning your 3cc Gideon into a creature or animating a manland and tagging it with a Polymorph works too, for example. As do Control Magic effects (why sacrifice your own creatures if you don't have to?). These work with almost all the namesake cards except for Reality Scramble, where you need to be careful not to cascade it into a potential miss (it could turn Gideon into another Gideon, or a Karn-activated Mountain Creature into a ...regular Mountain, for example). But you could also use that to your advantage in some cases too; turning your 3cc 'walker into an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon when it's the only other 'walker in your deck could be some cool tech.
***Note that I didn't fill the list with Dragon Fodders. While those cards are great enablers for Polymorph decks, they will find few other homes outside of some unenthusiastic 23rd card inclusions.
I plan on doing some extensive brainstorming/theory-crafting, playtesting and tinkering to see if I can come up with a combination of enablers and Polymorph effects that will allow the archetype to be competitive. If so, I'd like to give it a shot, because turning a creature token into an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or a Blightsteel Colossus sounds like my cup of tea, and I think M21 has finally given us the critical mass needed to explore this archetype more seriously.
It's important to note that this archetype doesn't have to exist on its own in a vacuum. Like, there's nothing wrong with pairing the Polymorph shell with Sneak Attack shenanigans or Quicksilver Amulet or Nahiri, the Harbinger to provide a little backup/redundancy to make the deck more multi-faceted. In fact, it's probably advisable, since relying on a lone Polymorph effect to win you the game might be a bit precarious.
For what it's worth, my gut still tells me no. I think it takes up a lot of real estate in the cube for a combo that's both relatively slow, and hard to reassemble if your first target is answered. Even if you are able to assemble the components needed to pull it off, is it good enough/resilient enough to win you the game? I'm not sure that it is. BUT, I do think that now that the critical mass of namesake effects is deep enough, this is worth discussing and exploring, because the effect is really unique and really fun.
I think it will be important as this archetype gets explored to include theme-adjacent support into the deck. I'm not sure that a deck that's 100% reliant on Polymorph will be able to get the job done. But using it as part of a deck that's also playing Show and Tell or Selvala's Stampede or something like that? ...we may have something going here.
Please discuss! And as always, cheers, and happy cubing!
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You missed Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast who is awesome and somewhat on color.
Would this deck be a reason to bring Akroma, Angel of Wrath back to cube? How about Empyrial Archangel, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, or Iona, Shield of Emeria?
Cheers,
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Daretti is in that list, right under Bitterblossom.
If I find myself short on big monsters, any one of those fatties could be a reasonable option.
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Sprout Swarm with Intruder Alarm is pretty sick.
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Edit: Will throw Shifting Shadow out there as a less reliable but cheaper, repeatable version of the effect
I agree with you that the real estate at 360 is simply too tight. I'm having a hard time at 720, lol. But of course, that's because I'm doing a lot of different things. If I was less focussed on archetypes, combos and synergy, it would be relatively easy to find room for stuff.
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This is the reason why I love this forum, we can bounce ideas off each other similar to the invertor combo. I see two approaches with this archetype:
1. Slot the 3-4 best version of this effect:
Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast
Reality Scramble
Transmogrify
and allow this to be played with cards like Oath of Druids in a planeswalker, midrange stragety
2. Add this support to allow the drafting of reanimator storm:
One idea I had a while back was to have this "reanimator storm" where the deck would use this tutors, draw (loot effects), cheat into play/ reanimate effects to get a creature like:
Nyxbloom Ancient
griselbrand
Narset, Enlightened Master
borborygmus Enraged
These effects could be used by exiling the 1-2 support support creatures (cost reducers), etc
This way the cards could be shoehorned int a storm deck where players could have multiple ways of going off
3. Adding a full blow archetype of this.
I'm against this as this would add a few too many parasitic cards into the draft.
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2. Improving Green Archetypes
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I hadn't realized there were so many 4-5 polymorph effects already available. I think that definitely bodes well for making this a draftable deck. The biggest hurdle at this point has already been brought up: viable token generators. It's great that most cubes have a few enablers to this deck already, but at the moment many of these appear to be in black/white, while the polymorph effects are red/blue.
Don't Oko, Thief of Crowns and Dovin, Grand Arbiter (if anybody still likes him) work in this deck?
My biggest fear at this point is that you not only have to get key cards, but you'll have to do so among 3+ colors and then also secure a reasonable wincon ... I think that could be a tall order. Alternative token generators exist in UR, but they tend to be subpar and might dilute the overall strength of your cube if you opt to include them.
Maybe could consider:
Crow Storm if you're already supporting storm and don't mind silver-border
honor the god pharaoh if you like bad cards
lazotep plating curiously seems useful even if you don't end up using the token for sacrifice; like it's a way to protect your guy if not enable the combo.
mask of immolation is mortarpod, and I think people liked that card for approximately 5 minutes in 2010, right?
Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer seemed like a card some folks liked for a hot minute? Granted there's a delay in the token generation, but you can still go off turn 4.
Was gonna suggest Jace, Cunning Castaway but nope he sucks even here
Anyway, I think you've made some great observations and it might be worthwhile to keep our eyes open for more enablers in the near future. I'm curious how it ends up shaping out.
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Tell us if it works
edit to add archmage's charm and awakening zone as possible cards
Sprout Swarm also works with Paradox Engine.
Off topic: I would think that Engine should go well in combo cubes but I don't think many run it. Does that card have any interaction with your cube? Time Vault? Storm? Is there any other possibilities/potential?
Yes, Awakening Zone is another card that makes a token before T4. There are LOADS of options available ...it's just a matter of finding the ones that fit best into the rest of the cube environment.
..........
I'm pretty stoked to try out Kher Keep. It's one of the best enablers for this strategy, and it can also create consistent food for Braids/Smokestack and the like, and considering all the sacrifice effects floating around for the aristocrats shells, having a land that can repeatedly make bodies for cheap will be pretty cool. Looks fun with Skullclamp too.
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Oath of Druids, Red Polymorph and enough R/G token making cards might work. Both tackle the same plan from a different angle, but could overlap too heavily.
Unless a cube already features support for tokens and OoD decks, I don't see Polymorph decks having enough speed/support to push into most cubes yet.
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
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Great news!
Please let us know which are the must cards for the archetype!
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@JuiceBOX: T4 Progenitus/Blightsteel/Emrakul has been pretty powerful. The archetype hasn't been "marginal" or "weird" ...it's been very strong. Just an FYI.
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But if you CAN find the room, the deck can work. So in that regard, I think exploring the archetype was a success.
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I said marginal cards, not a marginal archetype. Any deck that can circumvent the cost of casting end-game creatures is going to be powerful when it comes together. The question is, when it does not come together - "Are the peripherals good enough for supporting other archetypes?", and I don't think that rings true enough for me to be willing to give up the real estate space for the archetype, even at 540.
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