I definitely feel we have enough redundancy in the cube to allow this combo to be played in its own right similar to the splinter twin combo and cards like Inverter could be played in aggro decks, while Tainted Pact and Demonic Consultation could be played in combo decks and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries is fine on its own in an Blue heavy deck.
My concern at this point is we may have way too many combo decks.
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I think this is both missing redundancy and missing cards that are playable on their own outside of the combo. Tainted Pack is maybe playable in some 4/5-color control decks with no repeated basics, and Thassa's Oracle is a fringe playable creature ...but none of the other cards are good enough on their own. I don't think there's enough cards to make the deck consistent enough to overcome how parasitic all the enablers are.
...Yet. But I have my eye on them because I think with a handful of additional cards that can either win in this manner or serve as enablers that are playable in other decks, it'll be something I'm interested in!
I do think we have enough combo pieces, but these cards not being strong on their own has also become a concern for me. Inverter might be good in an all- in black deck, Demonic Consultation might be okay in another black combo deck.
I also do have unset in my cube (as long as the card doesn't get too silly) so I would be open to playing Yawgmoth's Testament along with the exile your library.
But yah, I'm on the fence about including this combo.
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I have been playing this since the release of THB and it has been AWESOME!
1 - Tainted Pact can be played like an Impulse variant in almost every black deck.
2 - While Thassa's Oracle and Jace aren't the best cards, they're fine playables. Much more so than Twin counterparts.
3 - Laboratory Maniac is too bad to include IMO, but Nexus of Fate also has redundancy here for infinite turns!
I don't include Doomsday or Inverter of Truths (might add inverter). I think in general you should add Necropotence instead of Doomsday because it can be played outside this deck, but also can burn through your whole library. Similarly, Doom Whisperer is great with it. I also have Hermit Druid for a bit more redundancy, and that card has seen plenty of play in GB reanimator and general G midrange.
There's a lot more redundancy than it looks, and I strongly suggest trying it out. One of my favorite control decks I've ever drafted had zero creatures and Oath of Druids. Oath of Druids lategame would take infinite turns because of Nexus of Fate!
I have been playing this since the release of THB and it has been AWESOME!
1 - Tainted Pact can be played like an Impulse variant in almost every black deck.
2 - While Thassa's Oracle and Jace aren't the best cards, they're fine playables. Much more so than Twin counterparts.
3 - Laboratory Maniac is too bad to include IMO, but Nexus of Fate also has redundancy here for infinite turns!
I don't include Doomsday or Inverter of Truths (might add inverter). I think in general you should add Necropotence instead of Doomsday because it can be played outside this deck, but also can burn through your whole library. Similarly, Doom Whisperer is great with it. I also have Hermit Druid for a bit more redundancy, and that card has seen plenty of play in GB reanimator and general G midrange.
There's a lot more redundancy than it looks, and I strongly suggest trying it out. One of my favorite control decks I've ever drafted had zero creatures and Oath of Druids. Oath of Druids lategame would take infinite turns because of Nexus of Fate!
That actually sounds really cool.
So just Thassa and Jace Welder for win con.
And Deranged, Oath, Tainted Pact, and Demonic Consultation for exile your library? That sounds really nice. In this case, pretty much all these cards are pretty much playable outside of their own environment and can be played pretty well in a draw your library deck!
I think I will give Thassa an Jace a try (no laboratory) and see how it goes from there.
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...but none of the other cards are good enough on their own. I don't think there's enough cards to make the deck consistent enough to overcome how parasitic all the enablers are.
Said the guy who advocated for Solemnity just a couple of hours ago. Don't want to be rude here, sincerly, but how those cards could be worse than Solemnity? Looks like clear double standards here. There's absolutly nothing parasitic in the package Saxe's suggested.
...but none of the other cards are good enough on their own. I don't think there's enough cards to make the deck consistent enough to overcome how parasitic all the enablers are.
Said the guy who advocated for Solemnity just a couple of hours ago. Don't want to be rude here, sincerly, but how those cards could be worse than Solemnity? Looks like clear double standards here. There's absolutly nothing parasitic in the package Saxe's suggested.
I've looked for wtwlf's comment and he's saying "Luminous Broodmoth" is like Solemnity but is generically good. He's not advocating for Solemnity in the cube.
I want to point out that wtwlf and I felt that Laboratory Manic, DoomsDay and maybe inverter are on the parasitic nature. While Thassa, Jace, Tainted are alot less parasitic and it might make sense to trim this combo with the parasitic parts out and replacing the invert with hermit druid/ Doom Whisper/ Necropotence for a more value based combo win. I think this is the correct approach for this archetype.
Hermit, Thassa, Jace, Demonic, Tainted and inverter are all fringe cards that could see some play while the combo makes these 5 insane.
(Also, don;t be rude to wtwlf .. he's kinda the reason why paper vintage cube exists)
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I specificly said I didn't wanted to be rude, so I hope my comment was not received that way. And I get that he's an important figure in the cube community. I refer to him a lot myself. But that doesn't mean he couldn't be wrong sometimes. He did say the card has utility if you support the Persist combo, so I guess he approached the subject a little more than you suggest.
I think one of the important things to understand is that both Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact are much more playable outside of the combo than they look. Tainted Pact much more than Consultation to be clear. Consider the following:
1 - You can ALWAYS stop when you hit the first basic. Meaning that Tainted Pact, if you don't want to take any risk, is at worst "draw a basic land".
2 - If you really need a specific set of cards, "exile the top N cards that are not the specific cards that you need" is actually a good card. It's pretty similar to "Scry 1, repeat N times", except if you aren't bottoming everything, you draw the card you want.
3 - If you don't really need a specific set of cards, but a basic is unacceptable, then you can cast it like Anticipate. The probability of hitting two of the same basic in the top 3 in a deck with 8 basics of two colors is under 20%. And I would argue that's the worst case manabase.
Conclusion: Tainted Pact is a generically good card that I believe most cubes should include even without this combo. And part of that, in my opinion, is motivation to run the combo. The only deck I tend to exclude pact from is mono-B aggro.
Demonic Consultation is much better in the combo of course, and much worse without it. But let's still evaluate it outside of the mill-yourself-combo:
1 - This card should only be played in combo decks, since that's where the maximal ceiling of tutoring is, which helps the math check out to be worth it.
2 - Let's say a game of cube has gone pretty late. So there's 24 cards left in your library. If there is a card in your deck that reads "win the game" (e.g. Twin combo, persist combo, sneak attack, etc.), then casting Demonic Consultation reads "75% you win, 25% you lose". Those odds are good.
3 - On the other side of the same math, if you're a blue deck and your opponent is casting something that reads "win the game", a 1cmc instant tutor that says "25% I lose, 75% I counter my opponent's game winning spell -- those odds are really closer to say 35% and 65% because you can't burn through your whole deck" is a good card.
Conclusion: Demonic Consultation ends up in sideboards a good chunk of the time. But blue-based combo decks tend to play it. These decks often have looting effects to mitigate dead cards as well as ways to set up the library (e.g. Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Top, JTMS, etc) to also mitigate the risk of Consultation. I will splash this card in my URb Twin deck. I will play it in Sneak Attack. I consider it in even versions of BR Wildfire and Reanimator. Is it the best card, no. But it's more playable than cards like Pestermite outside of its respective combo deck.
As a last note, because I feel like I have to keep saying it, if you want to support this archetype you should definitely play Nexus of Fate. There's a large difference between 2 and 3 cards that support a combo. At 540, this brings the probability of seeing a combo piece from 88% to 96%!
I quite like Tainted Pact, that card is sweet. I've tried to cube Consultation before though, and it's just not good enough outside of a deck that can use its drawback as an upside, IMO.
Oracle is also playable in quite a few places. But the Jace and the Maniac I feel are too narrow, and would only ever see play in the combo deck.
Both Doomsday and Inverter of Truth are also quite narrow, and would likely also be combo-exclusive cards.
So enabling the deck to its fullest potential requires quite a few narrow cards; more than I'm personally comfortable with considering the lower powerlevel of its enablers and the lack of consistency. For now. With a few more enablers (and preferably a few that are good enough on their own) I think the deck can certainly have the legs to be both powerful and consistent. I just think it's a little short still. I'm not saying it can't work, I'm just saying that I'd like a few more pieces to increase its consistency for my own personal taste.
...but none of the other cards are good enough on their own. I don't think there's enough cards to make the deck consistent enough to overcome how parasitic all the enablers are.
Said the guy who advocated for Solemnity just a couple of hours ago. Don't want to be rude here, sincerly, but how those cards could be worse than Solemnity? Looks like clear double standards here. There's absolutly nothing parasitic in the package Saxe's suggested.
The support for Solemnity can be insanely deep. It's a combo with like 20+ other cards in the cube and is a part of a really robust and consistent combo base.
Inverter combo might have like 2 or 3 enablers for it, making it really shallow. So the Inverter combo cards that aren't playable in other decks have less use than one of the persist combo enablers, since those combos are so far-reaching. Persist combo enablers are more likely to find their combo counterparts, making their narrowness more justifiable.
And I'm not advocating for Solemnity, only suggesting that it might be worth experimenting with considering bow deep and redundant its combo interactions can be.
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I specificly said I didn't wanted to be rude
You can find a less rude way to not be rude then. Like perhaps asking questions about my stance on cards and the reasoning behind my statements instead of having your first comment include accusations of double standards and things like "says the guy who..." kinds of crap. If you want to know, ask.
Quote from Zetsu_Sensei »
There's absolutly nothing parasitic in the package Saxe's suggested.
My comments were in response to the OP, not saxe, and the OP was suggesting the use of some of the parasitic cards that I don't like about the Inverter combo in cube. saxe doesn't run some of those cards.
Either way, I feel like several of the cards are too niche for a combo that's missing the redundancy needed to make it more consistent. In fact, that's exactly what I said in my first response! Did you even read it? I said "I don't think there's enough cards to make the deck consistent enough to overcome how parasitic all the enablers are" ...meaning that the parasitic nature of the cards can be overcome with enough redundancy to make the combo consistent. But without the redundancy, the limited uses of the cards hurts more.
Oracle is also playable in quite a few places. But the Jace and the Maniac I feel are too narrow, and would only ever see play in the combo deck.
Both Doomsday and Inverter of Truth are also quite narrow, and would likely also be combo-exclusive cards.
I agree with everything you've said except for Jace. I actually had the exact same opinion on Jace before I tried it. It seems clunky, but it has played out so much better than I thought. It has seen plenty of play without the combo over here. It's not the best option by any means, but it's a fine Coercive Portal Variant. I wouldn't advocate for it without the combo, but I don't try and wheel it like I do for many combo pieces because people pick it up and play it!
If i understand this correctly, you exile your entire library, so nexus of fate is the only card left in your deck and you would be able to take infinite turns potentially?
I actually have Nexus of Fate in my cube already as a target for Arcane Savant (and potentially infinite turn combo with a flicker). I've done play testing with the card and what we found out was decks that plan to cast nexus of fate could hang on, EOT nexus of fate. Then essentially take two turns in a row was just absolutely insane.
I don't play standard, so I actually never thought of Nexus of Fate being used like that.
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Exactly! If nexus is the last card and you have enough lands to cast it, you can take infinite turns. Although you do lose if you don't have a way to win from there
Nexus of Fate has been a great card in my list at least. Endstep Nexus is often GGs, which is how it should be for 7 cmc spells. But it's also guaranteed inevitability (Like Jace too) in that you win if the game goes on forever. So having control cards that just-so-happen to be Lab-Mans, even without the combo pieces (e.g. Demonic Consultation), spawns true control decks that don't really care for any finishers. It's a cool archetype that wasn't supported before!
You can find a less rude way to not be rude then. Like perhaps asking questions about my stance on cards and the reasoning behind my statements instead of having your first comment include accusations of double standards and things like "says the guy who..." kinds of crap. If you want to know, ask.
That was my friendly way of asking. I just saw the "double standards" and thought you were up for a little challenge. Then used the freedom of speech. No hard feelings. Back to the topic.
The one thing I still don't like about Demonic Consultation is how much of a dice roll this card is in a cube environment.
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That's why it's not very good outside of the combo...
I'm not saying its not a good card. I'm not liking how this card feels like a "okay if I roll 1 or 2, I win the game. Otherwise you win"
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I'm actually going to give the inverter combo a try. I have been readjusting my black section to be more discard + combo oriented and more or less a support color.
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Demonic Consultation
Tainted Pact
Inverter of Truth
DoomsDay
with an "I win with no library card"
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Thassa's Oracle
Laboratory Maniac
I definitely feel we have enough redundancy in the cube to allow this combo to be played in its own right similar to the splinter twin combo and cards like Inverter could be played in aggro decks, while Tainted Pact and Demonic Consultation could be played in combo decks and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries is fine on its own in an Blue heavy deck.
My concern at this point is we may have way too many combo decks.
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...Yet. But I have my eye on them because I think with a handful of additional cards that can either win in this manner or serve as enablers that are playable in other decks, it'll be something I'm interested in!
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I do think we have enough combo pieces, but these cards not being strong on their own has also become a concern for me. Inverter might be good in an all- in black deck, Demonic Consultation might be okay in another black combo deck.
I also do have unset in my cube (as long as the card doesn't get too silly) so I would be open to playing Yawgmoth's Testament along with the exile your library.
But yah, I'm on the fence about including this combo.
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1 - Tainted Pact can be played like an Impulse variant in almost every black deck.
2 - While Thassa's Oracle and Jace aren't the best cards, they're fine playables. Much more so than Twin counterparts.
3 - Laboratory Maniac is too bad to include IMO, but Nexus of Fate also has redundancy here for infinite turns!
I don't include Doomsday or Inverter of Truths (might add inverter). I think in general you should add Necropotence instead of Doomsday because it can be played outside this deck, but also can burn through your whole library. Similarly, Doom Whisperer is great with it. I also have Hermit Druid for a bit more redundancy, and that card has seen plenty of play in GB reanimator and general G midrange.
There's a lot more redundancy than it looks, and I strongly suggest trying it out. One of my favorite control decks I've ever drafted had zero creatures and Oath of Druids. Oath of Druids lategame would take infinite turns because of Nexus of Fate!
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That actually sounds really cool.
So just Thassa and Jace Welder for win con.
And Deranged, Oath, Tainted Pact, and Demonic Consultation for exile your library? That sounds really nice. In this case, pretty much all these cards are pretty much playable outside of their own environment and can be played pretty well in a draw your library deck!
I think I will give Thassa an Jace a try (no laboratory) and see how it goes from there.
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Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
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Said the guy who advocated for Solemnity just a couple of hours ago. Don't want to be rude here, sincerly, but how those cards could be worse than Solemnity? Looks like clear double standards here. There's absolutly nothing parasitic in the package Saxe's suggested.
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I've looked for wtwlf's comment and he's saying "Luminous Broodmoth" is like Solemnity but is generically good. He's not advocating for Solemnity in the cube.
I want to point out that wtwlf and I felt that Laboratory Manic, DoomsDay and maybe inverter are on the parasitic nature. While Thassa, Jace, Tainted are alot less parasitic and it might make sense to trim this combo with the parasitic parts out and replacing the invert with hermit druid/ Doom Whisper/ Necropotence for a more value based combo win. I think this is the correct approach for this archetype.
Hermit, Thassa, Jace, Demonic, Tainted and inverter are all fringe cards that could see some play while the combo makes these 5 insane.
(Also, don;t be rude to wtwlf .. he's kinda the reason why paper vintage cube exists)
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2. Improving Green Archetypes
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4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
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1 - You can ALWAYS stop when you hit the first basic. Meaning that Tainted Pact, if you don't want to take any risk, is at worst "draw a basic land".
2 - If you really need a specific set of cards, "exile the top N cards that are not the specific cards that you need" is actually a good card. It's pretty similar to "Scry 1, repeat N times", except if you aren't bottoming everything, you draw the card you want.
3 - If you don't really need a specific set of cards, but a basic is unacceptable, then you can cast it like Anticipate. The probability of hitting two of the same basic in the top 3 in a deck with 8 basics of two colors is under 20%. And I would argue that's the worst case manabase.
Conclusion: Tainted Pact is a generically good card that I believe most cubes should include even without this combo. And part of that, in my opinion, is motivation to run the combo. The only deck I tend to exclude pact from is mono-B aggro.
Demonic Consultation is much better in the combo of course, and much worse without it. But let's still evaluate it outside of the mill-yourself-combo:
1 - This card should only be played in combo decks, since that's where the maximal ceiling of tutoring is, which helps the math check out to be worth it.
2 - Let's say a game of cube has gone pretty late. So there's 24 cards left in your library. If there is a card in your deck that reads "win the game" (e.g. Twin combo, persist combo, sneak attack, etc.), then casting Demonic Consultation reads "75% you win, 25% you lose". Those odds are good.
3 - On the other side of the same math, if you're a blue deck and your opponent is casting something that reads "win the game", a 1cmc instant tutor that says "25% I lose, 75% I counter my opponent's game winning spell -- those odds are really closer to say 35% and 65% because you can't burn through your whole deck" is a good card.
Conclusion: Demonic Consultation ends up in sideboards a good chunk of the time. But blue-based combo decks tend to play it. These decks often have looting effects to mitigate dead cards as well as ways to set up the library (e.g. Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Top, JTMS, etc) to also mitigate the risk of Consultation. I will splash this card in my URb Twin deck. I will play it in Sneak Attack. I consider it in even versions of BR Wildfire and Reanimator. Is it the best card, no. But it's more playable than cards like Pestermite outside of its respective combo deck.
As a last note, because I feel like I have to keep saying it, if you want to support this archetype you should definitely play Nexus of Fate. There's a large difference between 2 and 3 cards that support a combo. At 540, this brings the probability of seeing a combo piece from 88% to 96%!
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I quite like Tainted Pact, that card is sweet. I've tried to cube Consultation before though, and it's just not good enough outside of a deck that can use its drawback as an upside, IMO.
Oracle is also playable in quite a few places. But the Jace and the Maniac I feel are too narrow, and would only ever see play in the combo deck.
Both Doomsday and Inverter of Truth are also quite narrow, and would likely also be combo-exclusive cards.
So enabling the deck to its fullest potential requires quite a few narrow cards; more than I'm personally comfortable with considering the lower powerlevel of its enablers and the lack of consistency. For now. With a few more enablers (and preferably a few that are good enough on their own) I think the deck can certainly have the legs to be both powerful and consistent. I just think it's a little short still. I'm not saying it can't work, I'm just saying that I'd like a few more pieces to increase its consistency for my own personal taste.
The support for Solemnity can be insanely deep. It's a combo with like 20+ other cards in the cube and is a part of a really robust and consistent combo base.
Inverter combo might have like 2 or 3 enablers for it, making it really shallow. So the Inverter combo cards that aren't playable in other decks have less use than one of the persist combo enablers, since those combos are so far-reaching. Persist combo enablers are more likely to find their combo counterparts, making their narrowness more justifiable.
And I'm not advocating for Solemnity, only suggesting that it might be worth experimenting with considering bow deep and redundant its combo interactions can be.
You can find a less rude way to not be rude then. Like perhaps asking questions about my stance on cards and the reasoning behind my statements instead of having your first comment include accusations of double standards and things like "says the guy who..." kinds of crap. If you want to know, ask.
My comments were in response to the OP, not saxe, and the OP was suggesting the use of some of the parasitic cards that I don't like about the Inverter combo in cube. saxe doesn't run some of those cards.
Either way, I feel like several of the cards are too niche for a combo that's missing the redundancy needed to make it more consistent. In fact, that's exactly what I said in my first response! Did you even read it? I said "I don't think there's enough cards to make the deck consistent enough to overcome how parasitic all the enablers are" ...meaning that the parasitic nature of the cards can be overcome with enough redundancy to make the combo consistent. But without the redundancy, the limited uses of the cards hurts more.
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I agree with everything you've said except for Jace. I actually had the exact same opinion on Jace before I tried it. It seems clunky, but it has played out so much better than I thought. It has seen plenty of play without the combo over here. It's not the best option by any means, but it's a fine Coercive Portal Variant. I wouldn't advocate for it without the combo, but I don't try and wheel it like I do for many combo pieces because people pick it up and play it!
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I actually have Nexus of Fate in my cube already as a target for Arcane Savant (and potentially infinite turn combo with a flicker). I've done play testing with the card and what we found out was decks that plan to cast nexus of fate could hang on, EOT nexus of fate. Then essentially take two turns in a row was just absolutely insane.
I don't play standard, so I actually never thought of Nexus of Fate being used like that.
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1. Minimum Archetype Support
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Nexus of Fate has been a great card in my list at least. Endstep Nexus is often GGs, which is how it should be for 7 cmc spells. But it's also guaranteed inevitability (Like Jace too) in that you win if the game goes on forever. So having control cards that just-so-happen to be Lab-Mans, even without the combo pieces (e.g. Demonic Consultation), spawns true control decks that don't really care for any finishers. It's a cool archetype that wasn't supported before!
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That was my friendly way of asking. I just saw the "double standards" and thought you were up for a little challenge. Then used the freedom of speech. No hard feelings. Back to the topic.
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Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm not saying its not a good card. I'm not liking how this card feels like a "okay if I roll 1 or 2, I win the game. Otherwise you win"
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I know. I am. I've died because of this card as many times as I've used it successfully in this format, and I cut it long ago for that reason.
Now in the combo deck it has no drawback. But everywhere else, it was too unpredictable to be successful for us.
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My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i