Great news for everyone supporting colorless mana in costs. We can finally run the full cycle of all 10, rather than a 5/5 Talisman/Signet split. That increases the amount of producers of colorless mana and brings all the advantages that Talimans have over Signets to all color pairs.
I actually do not run a full 10 of Signets or Talismans. I only run 8, I believe I left them out of certain guilds I didn't want to reinforce artifacts in.
But having this cycle complete does, really excite me.
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I'm replacing my signets immediately. I may end up cutting a few, probably GW and WB, just because of space reasons. At 400ish, 10 signets has been too many, and I don't really want to increase the size of the cube much. But these play decently color-agnostically, too, at least better than the signets do. Very pleased to see them.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
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Yeah, These are awesome. If my cube were to get bigger I would slam these for sure. I am at 405 on my way to 450 But I don't think I have room. Maybe at 450 I could run these, and at 540 + defiantly a thing. Even at 450 I would have considered it a week ago, but I think I want the cycling lands a little more than these
I think someone on here did an analysis of the top cube cards and which set's contributed the most. I think ABUR is still at the top with a cycle of 10 lands, and then all the iconic cards, and then zendikar might have been # 2? This probably outcompetes zendikar at this point.
I'm wondering exactly the same thing. Maybe it's healthy to choose the talismans, since this way ramp, which artificially moves you towards a later stage of the game, leaves an opening to aggro by investing life. On the other hand, the colorless ramp is without lifeloss, so maybe that's an unfitting speculation.
Wait, so does everyone think these are better than signets? I always thought the conventional wisdom was the opposite.
I don't know about conventional wisdom, but I also prefer Signets to Talismans (and hybridlands to painlands) so I don't think I'll be making the switch.
Honestly I think talismans and signets are not quite interchangeable, but similar enough in power level that you can really play either and be happy with it. Maybe play talismans in guilds that tend more aggressive and signets in guilds that tend to be slower?
I love seeing cycles like this get finished. Now where are my enemy Mirage fetches?
Wait, so does everyone think these are better than signets? I always thought the conventional wisdom was the opposite.
Signets sometimes lead to situations where you have two islands and a blue signet, with Force Spike and Counterspell in hand, but can't keep both up because of the way Signets filter. Talismans let you cast both. Talismans also let you cast a talisman turn 2 and follow it up with a 1-drop, where Signets only let you cast the Signet turn 2.
I think they're really close, but I prefer the Talisman. Signets have the advantages of not costing life when producing colored mana and being better for playing multicolored spells in 3+ color decks. Talisman are better for producing mana the turn you play them (including T2) and because they can effectively split mana between turns and phases better. They're also sources of C if that matters for your cube. The latter advantages are more relevant for the decks I play than the former, so I prefer the Talisman. But they're very close. If the colorless matters, Talisman are better. If it doesn't, I think it's up to personal preference.
Wait, so does everyone think these are better than signets? I always thought the conventional wisdom was the opposite.
Signets sometimes lead to situations where you have two islands and a blue signet, with Force Spike and Counterspell in hand, but can't keep both up because of the way Signets filter. Talismans let you cast both. Talismans also let you cast a talisman turn 2 and follow it up with a 1-drop, where Signets only let you cast the Signet turn 2.
At the same time, the point of pain from the Talisman is a real cost that can swing games if you find yourself needing to lean on it too heavily for colored mana production. For the most part, I've found that decks that care about things like making a Talisman into a one-drop on T2 are the same decks that cut the Signet/Talisman from their final build anyway.
I've got no quarrel with folks who make the swap. I just think I'm fine with keeping the Signets for now.
Wait, so does everyone think these are better than signets? I always thought the conventional wisdom was the opposite.
Signets sometimes lead to situations where you have two islands and a blue signet, with Force Spike and Counterspell in hand, but can't keep both up because of the way Signets filter. Talismans let you cast both. Talismans also let you cast a talisman turn 2 and follow it up with a 1-drop, where Signets only let you cast the Signet turn 2.
For sure, all the arguments for the Talismans being good make sense to me. What I don't understand is, if they're so powerful, why don't they show up with any amount of frequency in powered lists? At least at the same rate as the signets?
Take a look at the average 360 list on CubeTutor. All 10 signets, not a single talisman. This holds true all the way up to 720.
Hell, look at your list. You're running all 10 signets but not a single talisman (according to CT). Same with the lists of wtwlf, rantipole, and all the other frequent cubers, as far as I can tell. If they're so close in value, you'd think you'd see the Talismans show up more often in a few lists, yeah?
Because full cycles are easier for new drafters to identify with, and expect what to see next. I didn't want to only have enemy signets, and have drafters unfamiliar with the list be searching for the allied signets during the draft process, only to find out later they're not there at all.
With all 10 available, I would play the Talisman cycle over the Signet cycle.
And the allied Talisman are already popular cube cards. Just not quite as popular as Signets; largely because of the incomplete cycle thing.
For sure, all the arguments for the Talismans being good make sense to me. What I don't understand is, if they're so powerful, why don't they show up with any amount of frequency in powered lists? At least at the same rate as the signets?
Take a look at the average 360 list on CubeTutor. All 10 signets, not a single talisman. This holds true all the way up to 720.
Hell, look at your list. You're running all 10 signets but not a single talisman (according to CT). Same with the lists of wtwlf, rantipole, and all the other frequent cubers, as far as I can tell. If they're so close in value, you'd think you'd see the Talismans show up more often in a few lists, yeah?
There's some cards I don't mind breaking the cycle for. I run all the Titans except Frost Titan, I run Lightning Bolt and Dark Ritual, but not Healing Salve, Giant Growth, or Ancestral Recall. With Signets/Talismans, I prefer to run the full cycle. Now that the cycle is complete, I'll definitely be making the swap. I imagine you'll see many other cubes that weren't running Talismans before start including them now that we have all 10.
I don't have a single talisman, since I hadn't gotten back into magic when they were printed. I don't mind breaking cycles to represent more things. I'll replace a few signets with these. I'd replace as many as five of them, but I'd want to keep some signets in. Signets are sweet, and life costs add up.
I'm firmly in the Talisman camp. Colored mana turn 2 is important. Playing a mana rock + keeping Counterspell mana turn 3 is also key.
At 720, I'd likely play all 10 talismans and some amount of signets, but not the complete two cycles.
Team signet. The life loss is real. Colorless matters isn't usually a thing. Only Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher is concerned with that in my cube and I don't generally find myself needing the mana the turn I play the rock -- though for certain few color pairs this gives talismans an edge. If I wanted to really parse out what color pairs rely more heavily on cheap spells (spells matters decks) I might have talismans for a couple of the color pairs, but signets fit better overall and I'm a bit of a completionist where I can be without running weak cards (Hi, Frost Titan!).
Signets can be super awkward though, like when you need to hold up a counterspell on 3 and only have an island and selesnya signet in play or whatever. I'll be switching to talismans, although I'm not happy about it because I love the signet foils.
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Signets > Talismans in most situations. Fixes mana for no life. Sure there are corner cases, but unless you need that colorless mana from Talismans, signets win 90% of the time.
Signets > Talismans in most situations. Fixes mana for no life. Sure there are corner cases, but unless you need that colorless mana from Talismans, signets win 90% of the time.
I don't think it's as clear cut as that, but I like ten signets better than ten talismans in a small cube. If you also play things like fetchlands, shocklands, pain lands, and City of Brass cards, everybody is taxing their life for their mana base. That shifts the environment and improves aggro.
But the arguments in favor of that talismans are absolutely true. Signets are occasionally awkward. That's why I like a five and five split, even if most people find that inelegant.
Talisman > Signet for me. Signets need extra mindfulness on how you use your mana. Our group that has some that haven't played forever can appreciate not having to track that kind of thing.
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Great news for everyone supporting colorless mana in costs. We can finally run the full cycle of all 10, rather than a 5/5 Talisman/Signet split. That increases the amount of producers of colorless mana and brings all the advantages that Talimans have over Signets to all color pairs.
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Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
RIP Signets in my cube.
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But having this cycle complete does, really excite me.
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I think someone on here did an analysis of the top cube cards and which set's contributed the most. I think ABUR is still at the top with a cycle of 10 lands, and then all the iconic cards, and then zendikar might have been # 2? This probably outcompetes zendikar at this point.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
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I don't know about conventional wisdom, but I also prefer Signets to Talismans (and hybridlands to painlands) so I don't think I'll be making the switch.
I love seeing cycles like this get finished. Now where are my enemy Mirage fetches?
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Signets sometimes lead to situations where you have two islands and a blue signet, with Force Spike and Counterspell in hand, but can't keep both up because of the way Signets filter. Talismans let you cast both. Talismans also let you cast a talisman turn 2 and follow it up with a 1-drop, where Signets only let you cast the Signet turn 2.
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At the same time, the point of pain from the Talisman is a real cost that can swing games if you find yourself needing to lean on it too heavily for colored mana production. For the most part, I've found that decks that care about things like making a Talisman into a one-drop on T2 are the same decks that cut the Signet/Talisman from their final build anyway.
I've got no quarrel with folks who make the swap. I just think I'm fine with keeping the Signets for now.
For sure, all the arguments for the Talismans being good make sense to me. What I don't understand is, if they're so powerful, why don't they show up with any amount of frequency in powered lists? At least at the same rate as the signets?
Take a look at the average 360 list on CubeTutor. All 10 signets, not a single talisman. This holds true all the way up to 720.
Hell, look at your list. You're running all 10 signets but not a single talisman (according to CT). Same with the lists of wtwlf, rantipole, and all the other frequent cubers, as far as I can tell. If they're so close in value, you'd think you'd see the Talismans show up more often in a few lists, yeah?
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With all 10 available, I would play the Talisman cycle over the Signet cycle.
And the allied Talisman are already popular cube cards. Just not quite as popular as Signets; largely because of the incomplete cycle thing.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
There's some cards I don't mind breaking the cycle for. I run all the Titans except Frost Titan, I run Lightning Bolt and Dark Ritual, but not Healing Salve, Giant Growth, or Ancestral Recall. With Signets/Talismans, I prefer to run the full cycle. Now that the cycle is complete, I'll definitely be making the swap. I imagine you'll see many other cubes that weren't running Talismans before start including them now that we have all 10.
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At 720, I'd likely play all 10 talismans and some amount of signets, but not the complete two cycles.
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But the arguments in favor of that talismans are absolutely true. Signets are occasionally awkward. That's why I like a five and five split, even if most people find that inelegant.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.