Back to the topic of Nature's Chant - while I understand that some people don't like categorization the in gold/guild/multi/whatever you want to call it, there are two alternatives: balanced hybrid section or labeling the hybrid card as one of its two colors. Given that most people here agree that we don't have enough hybrid cards for a robust and balanced hybrid section, many choose the 1-color identity option.
This makes very little sense to me given that the advantages of Nature's Chant over Disenchant are that it is easier to cast in a specific guild deck (GW) OR that it is castable in a totally non-white deck. Both of those considerations are involve a second color, and thus any advantage this card has over Disenchant is because of its Selesnya identity.
I love this community. A slightly improved Disenchant is the single most discussed card of this set so far, and for good reason. I just find that slightly funny and pretty awesome. #cubenerds
I agree with wtwlf on putting this in the selesnya section but I don't think I have a good cut for it. Yes, I could cut voice but voice is an interesting card that helps combat blue decks. It's not a house or anything but it's solid and does work. I don't know that I want to cut that for a basic piece of removal that either color can already do on their own.
I agree with wtwlf on putting this in the selesnya section but I don't think I have a good cut for it. Yes, I could cut voice but voice is an interesting card that helps combat blue decks. It's not a house or anything but it's solid and does work. I don't know that I want to cut that for a basic piece of removal that either color can already do on their own.
Well, I mean, thats what the other side of the argument is talking about. Do you replace disenchant with a strict upgrade and "break color balance?" Or do you replace an interesting gold card in a premium slot for a basic effect. It's also fine to just say neither, and not put Nature's Chant in your cube. But the dilemma seems to boil down to whether you value your cube having more interesting effects or being a more streamlined draft experience.
Concerning hybrid vs gold I see them as opposites (when it's one hybrid mana cards like this anyway). And thus I don't think it's always healthy to cut multi to add hybrid cards. It's healthy for the cube to have some restrictive cards that's only good in certain decks. Not all cards need to be open and able to be used in all decks.
The perfect cards to compare are Nature's Chant and Qasali Pridemage. Both cards cost 2 mana, but one is very restrictive and the other is very easy to cast. If you were guaranteed to cast both cards at all times most people would agree that the pridemage is better (i hope). But because of the casting cost you would never play Pridemage in a Gruul deck, but you could play the Chant almost as easy as in a Selesnya deck.
Where I think it's healthy to have some multi cards is that Pridemage is better than Chant in a Selesnya deck, and thus fits better in the Selesnya section of my cube.
If I don't have room for a hybrid card in the multi section I see if it fits one of the colors better. For instance Dryad Militant is in my White section - I don't support green aggro, so it fits perfectly as a white card, with a random ability that says it can be played with G as well.
1) Hybrid is good enough to replace a gold card.
2) Hybrids to mono section. If the card would make sense and would be good enough in the mono section without hybrid mana.
3) Have 2 hybrids and add them to the guild section and then have 1 less card in both mono colored sections.
Mixing these I haven't had too much trouble adding hybrid cards and being happy with the balance.
I will be adding Nature's Chant, probably replacing Forsake the Worldly with it and adding it to the white section. Let's see how things shake up with the rest of the set.
1) Hybrid is good enough to replace a gold card.
2) Hybrids to mono section. If the card would make sense and would be good enough in the mono section without hybrid mana.
3) Have 2 hybrids and add them to the guild section and then have 1 less card in both mono colored sections.
Mixing these I haven't had too much trouble adding hybrid cards and being happy with the balance.
I will be adding Nature's Chant, probably replacing Forsake the Worldly with it and adding it to the white section. Let's see how things shake up with the rest of the set.
I like your third point. The point of limiting the amount of gold cards is, that they fit in lesser decks. Hybrid cards are easier to cast and fit in more decks (especially those with just one colored symbol). I would just add a Hybrid section to my cube, but some combinations just dont have powerfull ones. Maybe counting two Hybrid cards as one Gold card could be right, I don't know.
I saw that a lot of people value estatics quite high and want a color balance in that regard, but playing a Noble Hierarch as a Bant card or Sphinx of the Steel Wind as an Esper card makes no real sense to me. (Hierarch is good in all Gx decks and Spinx is a Tinker/Welder target).
I startet my cube by copying rantipoles cube, but I guess I am reevaluating those facts soon and will adjust my cube. Nature's Chant will find a home in my cube.
Back to the topic of Nature's Chant - while I understand that some people don't like categorization the in gold/guild/multi/whatever you want to call it, there are two alternatives: balanced hybrid section or labeling the hybrid card as one of its two colors.
Actually we have a different approach: we have a hybrid section that includes all hybrids we want to cube with regardless of which colors they are (so, not balanced). Then we balance the colored sections based on how many hybrids each color has access to. This is why our blue section has 3 more cards than our green and white sections.
About to go on a quick rant, but TL;DR: categorize cards how you want to. You don't need to cut a Selesnya card to add Nature's Chant. You don't even need to cut a white card or a green card. You can cut a black card. An artifact. Field of Ruin. Make decisions to make your cube environment the best it can be. It will still be "balanced" if the colors and guilds aren't identical sizes.
Something that has emerged from this discussion is that it reads as though many people believe balancing the number of cards in each color is related to having a balanced cube environment. I think, while this has merit, it is focused on too much by many cube designers. If your blue section is 70 cards and your black section is 65 cards, this isn't necessarily problematic. Similarly, it's okay for one guild section to have 6 cards while another has 5 cards. Especially when it makes logical sense (e.g. a smaller Boros section because those decks are often mono-R splash W or mono-W splash R, which means the gold cards play a smaller role in incentive). As long as it's not extreme (e.g. 70 U cards and 50 W cards), explore variation. Use the sizes of your color and guild section as a guideline rather than some hard rule. If that aesthetically bothers you, you don't have to do it, but I want to be clear that a balanced size of color and guild section in no way equates to a balanced cube environment.
But I think it's also okay to talk about why we choose to categorize cards the way we do. Maybe it'll help someone with their card categorization if they're looking to research the different ways people do it. As long as you're not attacking someone or their cube, it can make for some worthwhile discussion.
So many theories, and I think each one has it's merit. hybrids can become a challenge to classify because cube is actually like 3 games in 1; The Draft, Deckbuilding, and Gameplay. Hybrids play a slightly different in drafting vs Gameplay compared to a mono-color counterpart. To complicate things further, cards like figure of destiny are different than Nature's chant. AND then, there is the complicated fact of cube size. 360 cubes might have to make different concessions compared to 450, vs 540, vs 720. A 720 size cube might be able to call this a WG card and it's not that big of a deal. A 360 sized cube might need to call this a white card and cut out disenchant if it does not have room for both. I think there are correct and incorrect ways of doing it, but the answer may be cube specific
I will probably classify this and Dryad Militant in my WG section, but consider them each a 1/2 card in each color. It's what I have been doing and as long as it's only a card or 2 in each guild I am fine with it. I am just excited that this is even a discussion, because it means we are getting more cube cards, and the more cube cards we get, the harder it is to decide what to run
But I think it's also okay to talk about why we choose to categorize cards the way we do. Maybe it'll help someone with their card categorization if they're looking to research the different ways people do it. As long as you're not attacking someone or their cube, it can make for some worthwhile discussion.
100% agree. It's an important discussion, and it's helpful to the community as a whole. I've been watching this discussion for a while, and think too many feel like it's black and white. This is a gray area, where you --- the cube designer --- make a decision for your environment. I just want to be clear that balancing colors does not mean a balanced cube environment, and a cube environment can be very well balanced with different sized sections.
I also think that the formats you play can change the importance of that balance too. While having six more blue cards or whatever might not matter much in an 8-player event, it can be felt a lot more when playing Sealed Deck or Winston drafts. So I think keeping in mind which formats you play can inform how important that balance is for your group. We play sealed a lot, and it isn't uncommon to be like 1-2 cards short of having a particular strategy or color combination from being available. So balancing numbers may be more important for us than for a group that does nothing but full-table drafting.
But I think it's also okay to talk about why we choose to categorize cards the way we do. Maybe it'll help someone with their card categorization if they're looking to research the different ways people do it. As long as you're not attacking someone or their cube, it can make for some worthwhile discussion.
Agreed. A hundred years ago in 2007 when I first built my cube I had cards like Kird Ape in red because that's how Evan Erwin (whose cube I first mirrored) did. After reading discussions here and seeing reasoning from folks like Usman and wtwlf123, I made the change to move off color cards like that and then later the dual lands to my multicolor section. Honestly, being on these forums for the past 10+ years, combined with actually maintaining my own cube for that long, really helped to form my own cube philosophy and justify why I classify cards the way I do.
So yeah, there's not really a wrong way to organize your cube, but discussing the reasoning behind your personal choices can be extremely insightful, especially for new cubers just starting out with putting together their own list.
I'm lazy so it's goodbye disenchant. I don't think its good enough for a guild slot, maybe "good" is the wrong word there, it's just not interesting enough IMO for a guild slot. I already call Dryad Militant a white card, although that one is more obvious because I have no green agro.
I will try it in white but if it starts seeing play in too many non-white decks I will think about reclassifying it.
I have all my hybrid cards in my monocolor sections because I'm lazy and figured it doesn't make too big of a difference, but if I ever recategorize them, I'll be moving them to my colorless section rather than multicolor. Guild cards only fit in 1 guild, monocolor cards go in 4 guilds, hybrid cards go in 7 guilds, colorless cards go in 10. In practice though, most artifacts are only wanted by maybe 7 guilds tops. I think the difference between hybrid and colorless is actually the most negligible difference between any two categories. The reason I have a multicolor section is because I want to limit how many overly narrow cards I run. Adding cards that are almost-colorless to that kind of defeats the purpose to me. If I thought I had too many overly narrow multicolor cards, I would just shrink that section rather than try to water it down.
Anwyay, good removal spell is good. I just wish we can get more disenchant effects that are more maindeckable (on bodies, other modes, etc).
Gold cards only fit in one guild. Guild sections were created specifically to differentiate themselves from "gold" sections, and be able to house all cards that are intrinsically best within that color identity.
I have all my hybrid cards in my monocolor sections because I'm lazy and figured it doesn't make too big of a difference, but if I ever recategorize them, I'll be moving them to my colorless section rather than multicolor. Guild cards only fit in 1 guild, monocolor cards go in 4 guilds, hybrid cards go in 7 guilds, colorless cards go in 10. In practice though, most artifacts are only wanted by maybe 7 guilds tops. I think the difference between hybrid and colorless is actually the most negligible difference between any two categories. The reason I have a multicolor section is because I want to limit how many overly narrow cards I run. Adding cards that are almost-colorless to that kind of defeats the purpose to me. If I thought I had too many overly narrow multicolor cards, I would just shrink that section rather than try to water it down.
Anwyay, good removal spell is good. I just wish we can get more disenchant effects that are more maindeckable (on bodies, other modes, etc).
It's interesting to me to see the "hybrid classification" argument repeated so vigorously so often. For me, hybrid cards have always counted in their respective guilds, but I've always thought of it as a net good for the environment to include a hybrid card over a gold card. While I can definitely see the argument for cutting Disenchant for this, I would have classified them as strictly different for cube purposes.
If I were going to cut Diesnchant for this, I would find a GW card to cut for it, then I would find I white card I want to test and consider it a free add over Disenchant. Sort of a diagonal cut. I actually do that all the time when I find a card that directly replaces another, but isn't in the same color(s).
For my own cube, I'll probably leave this out for exactly one reason: I'm giving Sundering Growth an honest to goodness chance. I don't dislike it, and I don't want both. I could be persuaded though. Nature's chant is splashable in like 70% of decks. Maybe more with the 20 trilands in my cube. There are few better sideboard cards. I may have talked myself into it, but gee do I love the random upside on Sundering Growth.
Back to the topic of Nature's Chant - while I understand that some people don't like categorization the in gold/guild/multi/whatever you want to call it, there are two alternatives: balanced hybrid section or labeling the hybrid card as one of its two colors. Given that most people here agree that we don't have enough hybrid cards for a robust and balanced hybrid section, many choose the 1-color identity option.
This makes very little sense to me given that the advantages of Nature's Chant over Disenchant are that it is easier to cast in a specific guild deck (GW) OR that it is castable in a totally non-white deck. Both of those considerations are involve a second color, and thus any advantage this card has over Disenchant is because of its Selesnya identity.
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I play Dryad Militant, Kitchen Finks, Knight of Autumn, and Voice if resurgence. Is it better than any of these, maybe the dryad?
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Well, I mean, thats what the other side of the argument is talking about. Do you replace disenchant with a strict upgrade and "break color balance?" Or do you replace an interesting gold card in a premium slot for a basic effect. It's also fine to just say neither, and not put Nature's Chant in your cube. But the dilemma seems to boil down to whether you value your cube having more interesting effects or being a more streamlined draft experience.
The perfect cards to compare are Nature's Chant and Qasali Pridemage. Both cards cost 2 mana, but one is very restrictive and the other is very easy to cast. If you were guaranteed to cast both cards at all times most people would agree that the pridemage is better (i hope). But because of the casting cost you would never play Pridemage in a Gruul deck, but you could play the Chant almost as easy as in a Selesnya deck.
Where I think it's healthy to have some multi cards is that Pridemage is better than Chant in a Selesnya deck, and thus fits better in the Selesnya section of my cube.
If I don't have room for a hybrid card in the multi section I see if it fits one of the colors better. For instance Dryad Militant is in my White section - I don't support green aggro, so it fits perfectly as a white card, with a random ability that says it can be played with G as well.
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1) Hybrid is good enough to replace a gold card.
2) Hybrids to mono section. If the card would make sense and would be good enough in the mono section without hybrid mana.
3) Have 2 hybrids and add them to the guild section and then have 1 less card in both mono colored sections.
Mixing these I haven't had too much trouble adding hybrid cards and being happy with the balance.
I will be adding Nature's Chant, probably replacing Forsake the Worldly with it and adding it to the white section. Let's see how things shake up with the rest of the set.
I like your third point. The point of limiting the amount of gold cards is, that they fit in lesser decks. Hybrid cards are easier to cast and fit in more decks (especially those with just one colored symbol). I would just add a Hybrid section to my cube, but some combinations just dont have powerfull ones. Maybe counting two Hybrid cards as one Gold card could be right, I don't know.
I saw that a lot of people value estatics quite high and want a color balance in that regard, but playing a Noble Hierarch as a Bant card or Sphinx of the Steel Wind as an Esper card makes no real sense to me. (Hierarch is good in all Gx decks and Spinx is a Tinker/Welder target).
I startet my cube by copying rantipoles cube, but I guess I am reevaluating those facts soon and will adjust my cube. Nature's Chant will find a home in my cube.
Maybe not for everyone but it works for us.
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Something that has emerged from this discussion is that it reads as though many people believe balancing the number of cards in each color is related to having a balanced cube environment. I think, while this has merit, it is focused on too much by many cube designers. If your blue section is 70 cards and your black section is 65 cards, this isn't necessarily problematic. Similarly, it's okay for one guild section to have 6 cards while another has 5 cards. Especially when it makes logical sense (e.g. a smaller Boros section because those decks are often mono-R splash W or mono-W splash R, which means the gold cards play a smaller role in incentive). As long as it's not extreme (e.g. 70 U cards and 50 W cards), explore variation. Use the sizes of your color and guild section as a guideline rather than some hard rule. If that aesthetically bothers you, you don't have to do it, but I want to be clear that a balanced size of color and guild section in no way equates to a balanced cube environment.
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This.
But I think it's also okay to talk about why we choose to categorize cards the way we do. Maybe it'll help someone with their card categorization if they're looking to research the different ways people do it. As long as you're not attacking someone or their cube, it can make for some worthwhile discussion.
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I will probably classify this and Dryad Militant in my WG section, but consider them each a 1/2 card in each color. It's what I have been doing and as long as it's only a card or 2 in each guild I am fine with it. I am just excited that this is even a discussion, because it means we are getting more cube cards, and the more cube cards we get, the harder it is to decide what to run
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
100% agree. It's an important discussion, and it's helpful to the community as a whole. I've been watching this discussion for a while, and think too many feel like it's black and white. This is a gray area, where you --- the cube designer --- make a decision for your environment. I just want to be clear that balancing colors does not mean a balanced cube environment, and a cube environment can be very well balanced with different sized sections.
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Anyways, cheers!
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Agreed. A hundred years ago in 2007 when I first built my cube I had cards like Kird Ape in red because that's how Evan Erwin (whose cube I first mirrored) did. After reading discussions here and seeing reasoning from folks like Usman and wtwlf123, I made the change to move off color cards like that and then later the dual lands to my multicolor section. Honestly, being on these forums for the past 10+ years, combined with actually maintaining my own cube for that long, really helped to form my own cube philosophy and justify why I classify cards the way I do.
So yeah, there's not really a wrong way to organize your cube, but discussing the reasoning behind your personal choices can be extremely insightful, especially for new cubers just starting out with putting together their own list.
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I will try it in white but if it starts seeing play in too many non-white decks I will think about reclassifying it.
Anwyay, good removal spell is good. I just wish we can get more disenchant effects that are more maindeckable (on bodies, other modes, etc).
Gold cards only fit in one guild. Guild sections were created specifically to differentiate themselves from "gold" sections, and be able to house all cards that are intrinsically best within that color identity.
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I actually like that logic a lot.
If I were going to cut Diesnchant for this, I would find a GW card to cut for it, then I would find I white card I want to test and consider it a free add over Disenchant. Sort of a diagonal cut. I actually do that all the time when I find a card that directly replaces another, but isn't in the same color(s).
For my own cube, I'll probably leave this out for exactly one reason: I'm giving Sundering Growth an honest to goodness chance. I don't dislike it, and I don't want both. I could be persuaded though. Nature's chant is splashable in like 70% of decks. Maybe more with the 20 trilands in my cube. There are few better sideboard cards. I may have talked myself into it, but gee do I love the random upside on Sundering Growth.
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