There's no thread for this card so I'll create one now.
I know that this is no premium counterspell, but I have reason to believe it can serve as a functional one, mostly late-game oriented.
Of course you're bound to run Mana Drain, Counterspell, Memory Lapse and the like over it, but I think it becomes less obvious in comparison to cards like Deprive, mostly in larger cubes.
Let's run with that comparison for a bit: both are at their weakest early game. Deprive is indeed playable turn 2, but its drawback is backbreaking in control's already weak early game. LK is worse if you have no cards in your yard, but powered cubes have turn 1 cantrips and fetchlands to make it a worse Force Spike, which is still playable and doesn't kill your tempo. Both are good mid to late, where their drawback is more easily ignored.
The board states in which these aren't as good in the late game are different: Deprive is horrible versus Braids and Smokestack boards as well as Crucible Strip boards if existent, and also sucks if your opponent can resolve a Plow Under. LK is most horrible versus Bojuka Bog. Remorseful Cleric and Scavenging Ooze are major problems, but they can be countered by it unless you draw into it when it's too late.
What do you guys think? Is there something I'm overlooking?
So many decks are utilizing their graveyards as resources now that I think there's a lot of conflict with middling Delve cards. It interferes with your Search for Azcantas, and is competing for resources with Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise and Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Plus, it can run into issues with your Snapcaster Mage and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy kinds of cards, and also makes Grim Lavamancer weaker, can't be used in reanimator decks, recursion decks, 'Lark decks, or the like. And it's a nombo with Timetwister and Time Spiral too. Makes your Regrowths worse, and conflicts with flashback spells.
If I'm going to be playing a card that has those kinds of deckbuilding conflicts, it better be an insanely powerful card. I just don't think Knot is that card (in this format). I think there are better fringe counterspell options for cube, either the other situational/"taxing" 1U counterspells or any of the various 1UU options out there.
I think it's stronger than other common cube cards, but I'd put it between the 20th and 30th Counterspell in line - Countering is just an inherently strong effect, and I'd have to be running a pretty big cube to allocate enough spots to dig that deep
Huh, I never considered this card before, but at 360 where Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise are too greedy, there’s a lot less graveyard value shenanigans, so this card isn’t at its best. Unfortunately, that also means that the competition is at its highest and this card likely doesn’t make the cut (I haven’t tried it before though, I could be mistaken). This card is pretty sweet in modern as a one or two of in UWx control, and I guess it’s probably decent in larger cubes that also struggle to get the necessary counterspell density. I wouldn’t play this one at 450 because of space issues, but anything bigger than that might want this. Good find!
I think the main argument against this card is that there's a very real possibility that you won't be able to counter early spells due to an empty graveyard.
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I feel like I would rather have mana leak. If a deck that wants Logic Knot makes it to the late game it should already be in a strong position but the early game is where it can really struggle. And there are only so mana spots to spend on pure counterspells at 450 and below. Above that I could see it.
Card is fine, but it’s WAY worse than in modern. (Counter spells are better in cube than in modern, but mana efficiency matters less in comparison to a 3 mana counter spell)
Most of the good delve spells are banned in modern, and a high density of fetch lands and cantrips fill up the graveyard very quickly... so it becomes much closer to counterspell.
Mana efficiency isn’t at the premium in large cubes that it is in eternal formats, so a 2 mana potential “hard” counter isn’t much better than a cancel.
I’m reasonably confident that all the cancel + upside counter spells are better than this... (I don't like deprive at all).
One potential reason I'm wrong is that, despite graveyards filling up slow and it competes for the graveyard with other great delve spells, "force spike" is a more powerful effect in a format where people are tapping out for 6+ drops.
For what it's worth, I've liked it in pauper cube but mainly because the format has so few good hard counters.
I've never considered it for rares with cubes... and it's probably outside of the range of cubes with uncommons. There's someone I know who thinks it's great in cubes with rares, but the existing options are just so much better.
I know that this is no premium counterspell, but I have reason to believe it can serve as a functional one, mostly late-game oriented.
Of course you're bound to run Mana Drain, Counterspell, Memory Lapse and the like over it, but I think it becomes less obvious in comparison to cards like Deprive, mostly in larger cubes.
Let's run with that comparison for a bit: both are at their weakest early game. Deprive is indeed playable turn 2, but its drawback is backbreaking in control's already weak early game. LK is worse if you have no cards in your yard, but powered cubes have turn 1 cantrips and fetchlands to make it a worse Force Spike, which is still playable and doesn't kill your tempo. Both are good mid to late, where their drawback is more easily ignored.
The board states in which these aren't as good in the late game are different: Deprive is horrible versus Braids and Smokestack boards as well as Crucible Strip boards if existent, and also sucks if your opponent can resolve a Plow Under. LK is most horrible versus Bojuka Bog. Remorseful Cleric and Scavenging Ooze are major problems, but they can be countered by it unless you draw into it when it's too late.
What do you guys think? Is there something I'm overlooking?
If I'm going to be playing a card that has those kinds of deckbuilding conflicts, it better be an insanely powerful card. I just don't think Knot is that card (in this format). I think there are better fringe counterspell options for cube, either the other situational/"taxing" 1U counterspells or any of the various 1UU options out there.
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Most of the good delve spells are banned in modern, and a high density of fetch lands and cantrips fill up the graveyard very quickly... so it becomes much closer to counterspell.
Mana efficiency isn’t at the premium in large cubes that it is in eternal formats, so a 2 mana potential “hard” counter isn’t much better than a cancel.
I’m reasonably confident that all the cancel + upside counter spells are better than this... (I don't like deprive at all).
One potential reason I'm wrong is that, despite graveyards filling up slow and it competes for the graveyard with other great delve spells, "force spike" is a more powerful effect in a format where people are tapping out for 6+ drops.
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Mana Drain, Counterspell, Mana Leak, Miscalculation, Remand, Memory Lapse, Cryptic Command, Force of Will, Mystic Confluence, Force Spike, Arcane Denial, Daze, Complicate, Exclude, Forbid, Sinister Sabotage/Dissolve, Pact of Negation, Supreme Will, Condescend
I think it's pretty interchangeable with any of these:
Deprive, Censor, Prohibit, Dream Fracture, Hinder, Disallow, Power Sink, Dismiss, Syncopate, Scatter to the Winds, Essence Scatter/Remove Soul/False Summoning, Negate, Broken Ambitions, Rune Snag, Commit // Memory
I've never considered it for rares with cubes... and it's probably outside of the range of cubes with uncommons. There's someone I know who thinks it's great in cubes with rares, but the existing options are just so much better.
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