Although many say that manlands are staples in cubes of all sizes, I can't remember the last time I activated a multicolored manland not named Shambling Vent, Creeping Tar Pit or Raging Ravine. I don't think anybody in my playgroup has activated a Celestial Colonnade or Hissing Quagmire in the last 6 months and actually won because of it, or even gained any sort of advantage from it's inevitability. Not to say these cards are bad, since they have a pretty playable floor of being a Guildgate, but I'm starting to feel like I should finally pull the cord on their inclusion in favor of other multicolored lands that actually impact the game more directly and enter play untapped.
My cube is pretty fast, so is this problem unique to me and my playgroup? Or have others considered cutting most of their manlands as well?
I cut Needle Spires, Stirring Wildwood, and Lavaclaw Reaches. Spires and Reaches were replaced by hybrid 1 drops, and Wildwood was replaced by Horizon Canopy. I could also see Wandering Fumarole and Lumbering Falls leaving, too, and maybe Hissing Quagmire, but there aren't cards in those guilds I'm dying to have in.
But the power comes from the combination of colors plus the threat all in the same card. Not sure why you're not firing them up regularly. Maybe cube these days has so much card advantage that they're not as useful as they used to be? No idea. We still use ours.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm nowhere near cutting my two-color manlands. But, my cube can be fairly attrition-y with no true combos like Kiki/Twin. Aggro decks enjoy having something post-sweeper and control decks appreciate an 18th land that pulls double-duty as a wincon.
But, yeah, maybe that's just now how it runs for your cube and your group's playstyle, so maybe you should adjust to their needs. Manlands may be a "staple" but I think it's more of a sin to just include the cards everyone else does without trying to personalize your decisions. I think exploring alternatives is good.
I think Celestial Collonade in particular is the strongest manland. One important aspect is the threat of activation, preventing your opponent to play planeswalkers or drop down to a 4 or lower life total. So it might have an effect on games even if it was never activated.
Manlands I can see cutting: Hissing Quagmire, Lavaclaw Reaches, Wandering Fumarole and Lumbering Falls (though not at my cube size of 720). In a smaller cube I can even see cutting a few more.
For us games are often decided by turn 4 or 5, so unless the card allows you to quickly take over the game or recover from a losing position, they're generally not very strong. Cards like Colonnade use up your entire turn to attack with a 4/4, when Vent allows you to gain life and hold up mana for removal or be used in aggressive decks, Tar Pit barely sees play but is great when it does because it can carry a sword and kill planeswalkers, while Raging Ravine sees even less play but occasionally allows Midrange decks to not flounder when they run out of cards, which is always nice. Colonnade is in an awkward spot where it costs too much mana in a deck that doesn't run out of cards, and whose win conditions generally don't need assistance to win the game, like Ugin or Elspeth. Card advantage isn't the issue as much as the fact that slow manlands are often just that- too slow. I'll cut the weaker ones then, but I guess I'll keep Colonnade in for another spin or two and see if it pulls it's weight, as maybe its poor results have just been a byproduct of chance.
Colonnade is not there to be activated as soon as possible. It is there to be activated after you've taken control of the game. You'll usually never attack with it without counter mana up (and Collonade provides one itself as it has vigilance). It is a big, evasive threat that's hard to answer. Ugin and Elspeth can be answered by many removal spells that don't touch lands, such as Oblivion Ring, Dreadbore and Unexpectedly Absent, not to mention be countered or discarded by 1 mana black spells.
Most important thing is it is a mana fixing land on top of all that. It's never stuck in your hand as an 8 mana card, which should be especially important for a fast cube. It allows you to dedicate one less card in your deck for finishing the game, so you have one extra slot for an answer card.
Decks that want manlands should have the ability to slow the game down. Honestly this sounds like a balance issue with not enough checks / balances to aggro / combo strategies.
Yes, but entering play tapped can occasionally lose you games, while almost always having no upside. I'm not saying that Colonnade's power isn't real, since I love modern and have sported Colonnade competitively in the past, but in the context of a cube without Moat it never gets activated, and when it does it rarely impacts the game more than, say, a Mystic Gate would. This may just be a byproduct of circumstance, but with aggro and combo decks being the best decks in (our 425 unpowered) cube, Colonnade always fails to actually affect games more than a Tranquil Cove. Colonnade used to be great for us, but with the last 2 or 3 sets, its has repeatedly failed to keep up. I guess you've convinced me to keep it in, but if this trend continues I might just have to bench it until the cube slows down.
Yes, but entering play tapped can occasionally lose you games, while almost always having no upside. I'm not saying that Colonnade's power isn't real, since I love modern and have sported Colonnade competitively in the past, but in the context of a cube without Moat it never gets activated, and when it does it rarely impacts the game more than, say, a Mystic Gate would. This may just be a byproduct of circumstance, but with aggro and combo decks being the best decks in (our 425 unpowered) cube, Colonnade always fails to actually affect games more than a Tranquil Cove. Colonnade used to be great for us, but with the last 2 or 3 sets, its has repeatedly failed to keep up. I guess you've convinced me to keep it in, but if this trend continues I might just have to bench it until the cube slows down.
I don't agree with steveman that its a balance issue. My group has considered Colonnade a "Moat/Humility"-only card for a long time. The claim that there is an "imbalance" if Colonnade is too slow is bunk. The decks that would hypothetically want Colonnade don't need to throttle themselves to that degree. If anything my group sees it as a balance problem in the opposite direction -- if Colonnade is a legitimate win condition (sans Moat/Humility) then you are artificially supporting those decks in your Cube by not streamlining with superior options.
But that is really a jumping off point for a broader conversation: namely, that "midrange" cubes are laughably below the curve from a power level perspective. Personally, I think they qualify as "custom" Cubes at this point but on mtgs they are so ubiquitous that the criticism is blunted (for the moment..the trend is blindingly obvious so a transition is inexorable/inevitable)
I'm considering cutting manlands from the primarily aggro color pairs but they are still doing pretty good work for me. I run 5 land cycles in my 540 (OG duals, fetch, shock, pain, manland) so having a single land of each pair etb tapped hasn't been an issue for us.
If anything my group sees it as a balance problem in the opposite direction -- if Colonnade is a legitimate win condition (sans Moat/Humility) then you are artificially supporting those decks in your Cube by not streamlining with superior options.
But that is really a jumping off point for a broader conversation: namely, that "midrange" cubes are laughably below the curve from a power level perspective. Personally, I think they qualify as "custom" Cubes at this point but on mtgs they are so ubiquitous that the criticism is blunted (for the moment..the trend is blindingly obvious so a transition is inexorable/inevitable)
People can do whatever they want in their cubes, but I will admit that I personally prioritize power level over strict archetype balance, and Aggro and Combo decks are by far the best decks in the 425 and smaller format, with Control and Midrange a step behind, but not far enough behind that they don't win sometimes. My playgroup doesn't really mind, as we are pretty competitive across a variety of formats and accept that winning with volatile and high power cards is often what is fun for most people. We've exchanged lots of cards so that other decks have the tech necessary to beat aggro and combo, and I can appreciate the direction the cube is taking. On the topic of manlands though, I talked with my cube's co-owner and am convinced that it makes the most sense to cut the non-Shambling Vent/Creeping Tar Pit manlands in favor of AKH Cycle lands and LRW/SHM Filter lands. I've actually always been pretty excited to pack some blue filter lands, as they might rejuvenate people's interest in early-picking Cryptic Command.
Yes, but entering play tapped can occasionally lose you games, while almost always having no upside.
This is definitely true, but is usually the exception and not the rule. Risk / reward is always a thing, but the reward for manlands on average is definitely worth the risks in my book.
My group has considered Colonnade a "Moat/Humility"-only card for a long time
If I'm in UWx, there's no doubt that I'm playing Colonnade. Mana fixing + a long-term uncounterable threat for almost no opportunity cost that can also snipe planeswalkers is aces in my book.
I'm considering cutting manlands from the primarily aggro color pairs but they are still doing pretty good work for me.
I still like the manlands for the "aggro color combinations" since those color combinations aren't just inherently aggro and they go really well in 3-4 color strategies. Manlands add a whole other layer of strategic depth that no other land cycle can provide, not to mention they're a great way of keeping planeswalkers in check.
This may just be a byproduct of circumstance, but with aggro and combo decks being the best decks in (our 425 unpowered) cube, Colonnade always fails to actually affect games more than a Tranquil Cove.
In my meta, we have 186 decks currently in the 3-0 archives. Midrange and aggro have been the two most consistent decks. While I think aggro is probably the most consistent archetype overall, midrange has the widest umbrella of decks.
It took me a while to get behind the manlands (or is it landfolk now?) but they really are great. Obviously not every one is as great but they all have their uses.
For 1 land slot you get a 2 colour land and a threat to help close out games or block with. The threat of activation is often enough to hold of a random attacker or make your opponent keep extra blockers, especially in blue based decks where you can hold the mana open and use it EoT.
I find most of the man lands are lands untill you have a control over the game and they they become threats.
Celestial Colonnade - Great control finisher. Creeping Tar Pit - Solid control finisher. Lavaclaw Reaches - Fairly weak in my experience, but the ability to pump means it cant be ignored. Raging Ravine - Great beater. Stirring Wildwood - Has always felt a bit weaker despite ok stats. Good at threating to eat fliers. Shambling Vent - Mid teir option that can help stabilize against the agro decks. Wandering Fumarole - Mid teir option that can do well on attack or defence. Hissing Quagmire - Surprisingly good, its a land that can be a removal spell or chip in for damage. Needle Spires - Mid teir option with a pretty high ceiling. Lumbering Falls - Yet to impress me much but hard to remove.
I am not arguing that I use the mall the time but they are good. Aggro colors might be the toughest for tapped lands but they also most want extra threats after sweepers.
As far as balance issues it's not what is "superior". I feel I could jack your cube with sweepers, cheap removal, and specific counters and suddenly aggro and combo would look pretty bad. My idea of cube is too have a large variety of archetypes that are powerful that my group wants to play. Some of them are worse but my cube builds feel off if one of the theaters (aggro, midrange, control) is off. Midrange is the hardest to keep in check because it can just steal the best cards from all areas.
Now if what you are arguing is that you have limited space ~3-4 dual lands per guild at your size and other lands are better, I can agree. Horizon Canopy is the best example, with stirring wildwood being meh on the manland scale. Temple of Enlightenment is not bad for Azorious but I'm not convinced.
I could jack your cube with sweepers, cheap removal, and specific counters and suddenly aggro and combo would look pretty bad.
That doesn't work. No matter how many sweepers and cheap removal you add, aggro and combo remain the best decks. The only way to make them worse is to directly nerf them by removing cards like Sulfuric Vortex and Griselbrand from the cube. No matter how many Wraths you have, when you sweep on turn 4 but you already only have 6 life, you cannot physically win unless your opponent has below average draws. The only cards to date that I've removed from my cube for being too blatantly overpowered and swingy are Tinker, Mana Vault, Channel and Oath of Druids, and it's a course of action I really despise taking. To combat the aggression in my cube, I've vastly increased the count of midrange/control lifegain creatures, from just Wurmcoil to both of the 5/5 angels, Obstinate Baloth, Batterskull, and more. This is not to mention that I've increased the 4cmc wrath count in my cube as high as I can, which so far has done a decent job to combat aggro, but even so aggro and combo remain the best decks. The format is fast yet fun, but unless you are playing a midrange or control deck mirror, the games do not often go long, or at least when they do it's because a slow deck is clearly going to win but has to draw out the game to get the opponent to 0, like with a 6cmc Elspeth or lone 4/4 Broodmate Dragon token, as none of those single cards are capable of winning especially quickly, but will generally close out the game nonetheless without the need for mana intensive manlands. I hope this clears up my issue with "Landfolk" (Thanks Groglord, I'm going to use that term now too).
No matter how many sweepers and cheap removal you add, aggro and combo remain the best decks.
Well, this simply isn't true. It may be the case for your cube/playgroup, but I am 100% positive that this isn't a blanket statement that applies to all powered cubes out there. Aggro, midrange & control each win equal shares of drafts in my cube. It takes a lot of specific tinkering over long periods of time to get it right, but you can get archetype/theater balance, and you can do it without banning cards.
And if midrange and control decks are both as equally competitive as other shells, the manlands are great inclusions. Well, they're great anyways, because they're good aggro cards too. Incidental threat density increases that are resistant to sweepers and sorcery-speed removal are tools that decks of all theaters are happy to have access to.
I could jack your cube with sweepers, cheap removal, and specific counters and suddenly aggro and combo would look pretty bad.
That doesn't work. No matter how many sweepers and cheap removal you add, aggro and combo remain the best decks. The only way to make them worse is to directly nerf them by removing cards like Sulfuric Vortex and Griselbrand from the cube. No matter how many Wraths you have, when you sweep on turn 4 but you already only have 6 life, you cannot physically win unless your opponent has below average draws. The only cards to date that I've removed from my cube for being too blatantly overpowered and swingy are Tinker, Mana Vault, Channel and Oath of Druids, and it's a course of action I really despise taking. To combat the aggression in my cube, I've vastly increased the count of midrange/control lifegain creatures, from just Wurmcoil to both of the 5/5 angels, Obstinate Baloth, Batterskull, and more. This is not to mention that I've increased the 4cmc wrath count in my cube as high as I can, which so far has done a decent job to combat aggro, but even so aggro and combo remain the best decks. The format is fast yet fun, but unless you are playing a midrange or control deck mirror, the games do not often go long, or at least when they do it's because a slow deck is clearly going to win but has to draw out the game to get the opponent to 0, like with a 6cmc Elspeth or lone 4/4 Broodmate Dragon token, as none of those single cards are capable of winning especially quickly, but will generally close out the game nonetheless without the need for mana intensive manlands. I hope this clears up my issue with "Landfolk" (Thanks Groglord, I'm going to use that term now too).
I agree that just casting a mass removal turn 4 shouldn't beat an aggro deck. All the spells you've mentioned are expensive. They won't help if you cannot survive that long - provide more cheap cards that battle aggression.
I am not saying sweepers are the only way but a 4 mana sweeper is hella good if it is following path and counterspell. When I first built my cube the Mono R or R?W decks were unstoppable but that has improved for me. No one can build a cube wrong but I needed to add things like Daze and Force of Will and overall counterspell density to keep the combo decks in check. And it also depends a lot on what you vision of a control deck is, for us U/W slow roll control is just one of many. My most winnign deck is a jeskai spells matter control deck, Usually playing only about 6 creatures and featuring plenty of red but, but I still call it control because it will play mana drain, jace and torrential gearhulk.
But the most important thing I want to say is that challenging sacred cows is good. Manlands don't have to be played. There are lots of 'staples' I don't play.
But the most important thing I want to say is that challenging sacred cows is good. Manlands don't have to be played. There are lots of 'staples' I don't play.
Absolutely agreed here. I agree that the manlands might not be correct for every cube. I was simply pointing out that a generic statement saying "manlands are too slow for powered cubes" is inaccurate, because I think it has more to do with the specific composition, design, philosophy and specific playgroup in question than it does with an overall cube type.
But the most important thing I want to say is that challenging sacred cows is good. Manlands don't have to be played. There are lots of 'staples' I don't play.
Absolutely agreed here. I agree that the manlands might not be correct for every cube. I was simply pointing out that a generic statement saying "manlands are too slow for powered cubes" is inaccurate, because I think it has more to do with the specific composition, design, philosophy and specific playgroup in question than it does with an overall cube type.
You and I don't always agree but manlands were one item you specifically convinced me on, and I think my cube is better for it. I'll never need as many one drops as you but group is finally starting to draft fixing where I would expect and the manlands have helped that.
I respect your reasoning , but I don’t agree with your conclusion.. especially when it comes to celestial collanade.
Man lands are best suited for grindy matchups and while a lot of cube matches are settled by explosive starts and haymaker turns.... a lot of matches aren’t. Blue decks have many counter spells, black decks should have targeted discard, midrange against Agro , agro mirrors, control Mirrors can all come down to attrition.
Combo decks are inconsisten. the average deck isn’t hyper mana efficient like a legacy deck, there are often slots in your curve for an etb tapped land.
Are manlands that much better than the next tier of dual lands? Outside of collanade and tarpit, I’d say no. Some are potentially worse. But they are still great lands and more than deserve their slot.
But that is really a jumping off point for a broader conversation: namely, that "midrange" cubes are laughably below the curve from a power level perspective. Personally, I think they qualify as "custom" Cubes at this point but on mtgs they are so ubiquitous that the criticism is blunted (for the moment..the trend is blindingly obvious so a transition is inexorable/inevitable)
This is very strong language with basically no data to support it.
Could you link to a list that you consider not 'laughably below the curve from a power level perspective'?
I haven't been able to try out the Amonkhet cycle lands or a few other cool cycles to date, but the more I think about it the less I want to cut Tar Pit, Vent and Ravine, as they are the most unique and consistently powerful, but I can't help but feel like Colonnade is just overkill and will continue to never get activated, as it's just so much mana in the one deck that always has stuff to do. I don't think I've ever lost a game with a WUx Control deck without a handful of cards. The issue is never about running out of threats and answers, but rather having time to actually use them.
Tar Pit does almost the same thing for 2 less mana, while Vent offers a unique recovery mechanic, Ravine is a fast clock in a deck that lacks card advantage and really benefits from extra threats even if they're over-costed, while Colonnade isn't even an especially fast clock for how much mana you're paying.
Another overlooked issue with Colonnade is the opportunity cost of picking it in draft. Even if the power level is half-decent, it means you aren't picking a powerful spell. This means that as a land, It needs to be consistently useful (ie: deliver a bit more than just being a gulidgate). If I had the option of picking a Sheltered Thicket or Raging Ravine, Ravine would win every time. However, I cannot say the same for a Mystic Gate and Collonade, as Gate can at least enter play untapped and allow for greedier manabases. I could even see Irrigated Farmland being played in off color decks like W/x midrange or U/G Ramp. I don't know, maybe I'm being to harsh on Colonnade, but from what I can tell it feels serious;y overrated. Maybe I'll just force U/W Control the next time just to make sure I get to test it conclusively.
My cube is pretty fast, so is this problem unique to me and my playgroup? Or have others considered cutting most of their manlands as well?
But the power comes from the combination of colors plus the threat all in the same card. Not sure why you're not firing them up regularly. Maybe cube these days has so much card advantage that they're not as useful as they used to be? No idea. We still use ours.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
But, yeah, maybe that's just now how it runs for your cube and your group's playstyle, so maybe you should adjust to their needs. Manlands may be a "staple" but I think it's more of a sin to just include the cards everyone else does without trying to personalize your decisions. I think exploring alternatives is good.
Manlands I can see cutting: Hissing Quagmire, Lavaclaw Reaches, Wandering Fumarole and Lumbering Falls (though not at my cube size of 720). In a smaller cube I can even see cutting a few more.
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Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Most important thing is it is a mana fixing land on top of all that. It's never stuck in your hand as an 8 mana card, which should be especially important for a fast cube. It allows you to dedicate one less card in your deck for finishing the game, so you have one extra slot for an answer card.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I don't agree with steveman that its a balance issue. My group has considered Colonnade a "Moat/Humility"-only card for a long time. The claim that there is an "imbalance" if Colonnade is too slow is bunk. The decks that would hypothetically want Colonnade don't need to throttle themselves to that degree. If anything my group sees it as a balance problem in the opposite direction -- if Colonnade is a legitimate win condition (sans Moat/Humility) then you are artificially supporting those decks in your Cube by not streamlining with superior options.
But that is really a jumping off point for a broader conversation: namely, that "midrange" cubes are laughably below the curve from a power level perspective. Personally, I think they qualify as "custom" Cubes at this point but on mtgs they are so ubiquitous that the criticism is blunted (for the moment..the trend is blindingly obvious so a transition is inexorable/inevitable)
People can do whatever they want in their cubes, but I will admit that I personally prioritize power level over strict archetype balance, and Aggro and Combo decks are by far the best decks in the 425 and smaller format, with Control and Midrange a step behind, but not far enough behind that they don't win sometimes. My playgroup doesn't really mind, as we are pretty competitive across a variety of formats and accept that winning with volatile and high power cards is often what is fun for most people. We've exchanged lots of cards so that other decks have the tech necessary to beat aggro and combo, and I can appreciate the direction the cube is taking. On the topic of manlands though, I talked with my cube's co-owner and am convinced that it makes the most sense to cut the non-Shambling Vent/Creeping Tar Pit manlands in favor of AKH Cycle lands and LRW/SHM Filter lands. I've actually always been pretty excited to pack some blue filter lands, as they might rejuvenate people's interest in early-picking Cryptic Command.
This is definitely true, but is usually the exception and not the rule. Risk / reward is always a thing, but the reward for manlands on average is definitely worth the risks in my book.
If I'm in UWx, there's no doubt that I'm playing Colonnade. Mana fixing + a long-term uncounterable threat for almost no opportunity cost that can also snipe planeswalkers is aces in my book.
I still like the manlands for the "aggro color combinations" since those color combinations aren't just inherently aggro and they go really well in 3-4 color strategies. Manlands add a whole other layer of strategic depth that no other land cycle can provide, not to mention they're a great way of keeping planeswalkers in check.
In my meta, we have 186 decks currently in the 3-0 archives. Midrange and aggro have been the two most consistent decks. While I think aggro is probably the most consistent archetype overall, midrange has the widest umbrella of decks.
Midrange: 56
Aggro: 49
Control: 30
Combo: 21
Ramp: 20
Tempo: 13
Google Spreadsheet of Color Combinations and Archetype Breakdowns: https://tinyurl.com/yc5rkozt
3-0 Archives on Imgur: https://imgur.com/a/KxQwT)
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
For 1 land slot you get a 2 colour land and a threat to help close out games or block with. The threat of activation is often enough to hold of a random attacker or make your opponent keep extra blockers, especially in blue based decks where you can hold the mana open and use it EoT.
I find most of the man lands are lands untill you have a control over the game and they they become threats.
Celestial Colonnade - Great control finisher.
Creeping Tar Pit - Solid control finisher.
Lavaclaw Reaches - Fairly weak in my experience, but the ability to pump means it cant be ignored.
Raging Ravine - Great beater.
Stirring Wildwood - Has always felt a bit weaker despite ok stats. Good at threating to eat fliers.
Shambling Vent - Mid teir option that can help stabilize against the agro decks.
Wandering Fumarole - Mid teir option that can do well on attack or defence.
Hissing Quagmire - Surprisingly good, its a land that can be a removal spell or chip in for damage.
Needle Spires - Mid teir option with a pretty high ceiling.
Lumbering Falls - Yet to impress me much but hard to remove.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
As far as balance issues it's not what is "superior". I feel I could jack your cube with sweepers, cheap removal, and specific counters and suddenly aggro and combo would look pretty bad. My idea of cube is too have a large variety of archetypes that are powerful that my group wants to play. Some of them are worse but my cube builds feel off if one of the theaters (aggro, midrange, control) is off. Midrange is the hardest to keep in check because it can just steal the best cards from all areas.
Now if what you are arguing is that you have limited space ~3-4 dual lands per guild at your size and other lands are better, I can agree. Horizon Canopy is the best example, with stirring wildwood being meh on the manland scale. Temple of Enlightenment is not bad for Azorious but I'm not convinced.
That doesn't work. No matter how many sweepers and cheap removal you add, aggro and combo remain the best decks. The only way to make them worse is to directly nerf them by removing cards like Sulfuric Vortex and Griselbrand from the cube. No matter how many Wraths you have, when you sweep on turn 4 but you already only have 6 life, you cannot physically win unless your opponent has below average draws. The only cards to date that I've removed from my cube for being too blatantly overpowered and swingy are Tinker, Mana Vault, Channel and Oath of Druids, and it's a course of action I really despise taking. To combat the aggression in my cube, I've vastly increased the count of midrange/control lifegain creatures, from just Wurmcoil to both of the 5/5 angels, Obstinate Baloth, Batterskull, and more. This is not to mention that I've increased the 4cmc wrath count in my cube as high as I can, which so far has done a decent job to combat aggro, but even so aggro and combo remain the best decks. The format is fast yet fun, but unless you are playing a midrange or control deck mirror, the games do not often go long, or at least when they do it's because a slow deck is clearly going to win but has to draw out the game to get the opponent to 0, like with a 6cmc Elspeth or lone 4/4 Broodmate Dragon token, as none of those single cards are capable of winning especially quickly, but will generally close out the game nonetheless without the need for mana intensive manlands. I hope this clears up my issue with "Landfolk" (Thanks Groglord, I'm going to use that term now too).
Well, this simply isn't true. It may be the case for your cube/playgroup, but I am 100% positive that this isn't a blanket statement that applies to all powered cubes out there. Aggro, midrange & control each win equal shares of drafts in my cube. It takes a lot of specific tinkering over long periods of time to get it right, but you can get archetype/theater balance, and you can do it without banning cards.
And if midrange and control decks are both as equally competitive as other shells, the manlands are great inclusions. Well, they're great anyways, because they're good aggro cards too. Incidental threat density increases that are resistant to sweepers and sorcery-speed removal are tools that decks of all theaters are happy to have access to.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I agree that just casting a mass removal turn 4 shouldn't beat an aggro deck. All the spells you've mentioned are expensive. They won't help if you cannot survive that long - provide more cheap cards that battle aggression.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
But the most important thing I want to say is that challenging sacred cows is good. Manlands don't have to be played. There are lots of 'staples' I don't play.
Absolutely agreed here. I agree that the manlands might not be correct for every cube. I was simply pointing out that a generic statement saying "manlands are too slow for powered cubes" is inaccurate, because I think it has more to do with the specific composition, design, philosophy and specific playgroup in question than it does with an overall cube type.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
You and I don't always agree but manlands were one item you specifically convinced me on, and I think my cube is better for it. I'll never need as many one drops as you but group is finally starting to draft fixing where I would expect and the manlands have helped that.
Man lands are best suited for grindy matchups and while a lot of cube matches are settled by explosive starts and haymaker turns.... a lot of matches aren’t. Blue decks have many counter spells, black decks should have targeted discard, midrange against Agro , agro mirrors, control Mirrors can all come down to attrition.
Combo decks are inconsisten. the average deck isn’t hyper mana efficient like a legacy deck, there are often slots in your curve for an etb tapped land.
Are manlands that much better than the next tier of dual lands? Outside of collanade and tarpit, I’d say no. Some are potentially worse. But they are still great lands and more than deserve their slot.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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NotScottMescudi, could you post your list?
This is very strong language with basically no data to support it.
Could you link to a list that you consider not 'laughably below the curve from a power level perspective'?
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I haven't been able to try out the Amonkhet cycle lands or a few other cool cycles to date, but the more I think about it the less I want to cut Tar Pit, Vent and Ravine, as they are the most unique and consistently powerful, but I can't help but feel like Colonnade is just overkill and will continue to never get activated, as it's just so much mana in the one deck that always has stuff to do. I don't think I've ever lost a game with a WUx Control deck without a handful of cards. The issue is never about running out of threats and answers, but rather having time to actually use them.
Tar Pit does almost the same thing for 2 less mana, while Vent offers a unique recovery mechanic, Ravine is a fast clock in a deck that lacks card advantage and really benefits from extra threats even if they're over-costed, while Colonnade isn't even an especially fast clock for how much mana you're paying.
Another overlooked issue with Colonnade is the opportunity cost of picking it in draft. Even if the power level is half-decent, it means you aren't picking a powerful spell. This means that as a land, It needs to be consistently useful (ie: deliver a bit more than just being a gulidgate). If I had the option of picking a Sheltered Thicket or Raging Ravine, Ravine would win every time. However, I cannot say the same for a Mystic Gate and Collonade, as Gate can at least enter play untapped and allow for greedier manabases. I could even see Irrigated Farmland being played in off color decks like W/x midrange or U/G Ramp. I don't know, maybe I'm being to harsh on Colonnade, but from what I can tell it feels serious;y overrated. Maybe I'll just force U/W Control the next time just to make sure I get to test it conclusively.