After taking some time off from cubing and working on some big retrospective updates I've realized that I can feasibly run 4-5 walkers in each color, one in each guild, a tri-color walker, and three colorless walkers.
My current 540 list has something like 35 walkers, and I'd like to add 4 more, making the walker % of my cube a hair over 7%. This means that at my cube size a random pack would contain 1.08 Planeswalkers.
I don't really feel like walkers have been an issue in my cube or have skewed my drafts but I am a bit wary of oversaturation. I know some cube managers here cap walkers at 1, 2, or 3 per color and some don't see walkers as an issue at all. I'm curious what y'all are thinking about walker numbers and how you manage them as a card type in your cube.
I know the question of walker density has been tackled in the past, but I haven't found any conversation that is less than 2 years old and we've had some seeiosuly great walkers printed in recent sets. I'm curious what everyone is thinking about this topic these days.
So, how many walkers do you run? If you cap them, why? If you don't think they are an issue, why? Do superfriends decks dominate your cube meta? How do you make sure Planeswalkers are not OP? Let's discuss!
TBH it hasn't felt like a problem yet, so I haven't really thought about it. It helps that I like planeswalkers unlike some cube owners, so I'm not really looking for a reason to reduce them. I like the amount I have, and I would be open to expanding though not by extreme amounts.
I find cubes that feel the need to cap planeswalkers due to them being perceived as overpowered tend to have underlying issues in their cube metas (similar to the "signets and bouncelands are too good" thing.)
It's something that I may write an article about. Someday. Maybe.
I’m pretty maxed out on planeswalkers / 2-cmc mana rocks and my meta is still very healthy and aggro is still one of the most consistently winning archetypes. If your cube has aggressive strategies from Goblin Guide to Oath of Druids, planeswalker saturation shouldn’t be a problem.
I’m pretty maxed out on planeswalkers / 2-cmc mana rocks and my meta is still very healthy and aggro is still one of the most consistently winning archetypes. If your cube has aggressive strategies from Goblin Guide to Oath of Druids, planeswalker saturation shouldn’t be a problem.
It helps in your cube to have the higher powered stuff which is frankly fine but also puts pressure on the durdle do-nothing PWer superfriends decks that can show up. There are some unpowered lists where it might be oppressive--see some MODO lists where highpowered spells are removed but there are a million PWerss--but when I can channel or tinker or aggro etc it then the slower aspects of planeswalkers don't grind everything else/dominate the format.
Running 40 Planeswalkers out of 720, so 5.5%. I think planeswalkers add a lot to the format. Each of them creates an interactive mini game with choices for you (which ability to activate) and your opponent (whom to attack and point burn at). This effect is amplified by PWers usually serving multiple roles, hence being dead far less often that other card types. Superfriends is a unique archetype to cube among limited formats. PWers also allow narrow effects to be represented in cube (Control Artifact is unplayable, Dack Fayden introduces that effect to cube). Many planeswalker have ultimates that provide rare, memorable, story making moments.
I like to keep planeswalker density down, but this is heavily regulated by the fact that I never buy expensive singles. If I open a planeswalker, odds are that it's good enough for my meta: most of them are. If it seems fun, and isn't directly overshadowed by another walker, I usually add it. I don't open massive numbers of booster packs, and planeswalkers are always mythic, so density has never yet become much of a problem.
I'm also a proponent of building with the collection you have, not the collection you want to have.
Salmo, how many PWs are you running? Aggro and combo are both very successful in my cube meta so I haven't really felt that PWs warp things either. Superfriends has a hard time standing up to Channel + Ulamog. And while Pw decks do show up from time to time in my cube drafts but they don't feel like the most powerful thing ever as they are basically just grindy midrange value decks that have an edge in the control matchup.
Usman, you should def do an article. I remember your podcast from a few years ago when you guys talked about maybe hitting some density point sometime in the future where capping walkers would be a good idea. Seems like we are pretty close to that point. I don't think I'd want much more than 1 walker per pack on average, and my cube is just about there.
I have 31 in a 540. As much as I think 'slippery slope' is a real concept, PWer density is not one I apply it to especially since I could see myself cutting a number of them in the future and not necessarily for more PWers.
I'm running 2-3 per color, and ~1 per Guild. My cube goals (we do 540 btw) is to have a variety of unique cards that broaden the possible number of interesting plays that can happen at the table (which doesn't always require the strongest cards). Part of getting the experience is balancing the availability of planeswalkers with cool abilities. I try to spread them out through the cube by function, CMC, and even name (for example, I don't want to run 4 Ajanis, even though I quite like a number of them). I don't want unnecessary redundancy.
I don't have any hard caps on planeswalkers, but I just try to maintain a feeling like all sorts of gameplay are represented in some manner. There should also be enchantments and artifacts, sorceries and instants, and I definitely don't want my aggro decks being dominated by planeswalkers. To prevent superfriends decks from crushing all opposition, I'm sure to include lots of interaction with PWs specifically (eg Hero's Downfall) as well as other cards that are just generally good at stopping those decks before they get rolling (eg land destruction, hand disruption). Although PWs are usually strong picks in our cube, I think the cube is pretty decent in delivering a variety of possible decks, and they operate smoothest when you go for a theme, and not just generic goodstuff.
I don't really see a point in capping the number of walkers if the decks my cube supports show up consistently. Nobody in my play group has drafted a superfriends deck yet but that sounds awful.
Sure, there is a chance of spending $4 on a booster and getting the Mythic Rare $30 super card. There is also a chance of surviving putting your tongue in a light socket.
I don't mind PWs, as they mostly support midrange, a deck that already struggle to compete. Midrange is definitely the worst deck in cube right now, and overpowered PW value engines are some of the only ways they can compete.
I'm at 19 in my 360, but would probably go up to about 22 before I worried about it too much. One person drafted 4c superfriends once and got crushed by aggro, so that worked okay.
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I find cubes that feel the need to cap planeswalkers due to them being perceived as overpowered tend to have underlying issues in their cube metas (similar to the "signets and bouncelands are too good" thing.)
I think planeswalkers add a lot to the format. Each of them creates an interactive mini game with choices for you (which ability to activate) and your opponent (whom to attack and point burn at). This effect is amplified by PWers usually serving multiple roles, hence being dead far less often that other card types.
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I don't mind PWs, as they mostly support midrange, a deck that already struggle to compete. Midrange is definitely the worst deck in cube right now, and overpowered PW value engines are some of the only ways they can compete.
I run 33 planeswalkers at 720, which comes out to 4.6%. Used to have a lot more, but the group complained about too many walkers, so I actually am running about the same # of walkers I did at 540, and I'm much happier with this level. They're generally fair, but they felt oppressive to our newer and less experienced players. I think I'd want to always keep my PW % under 5%.
I am actively concerned about walker concentration in my cube. Not that it is overpowered but I have many older players in my group who find dislike too much midrange sameness feel that can happen with many of the walkers. I do this 5-7% is normal (I'm at 23 in 420) and fine and it has only been when I have tried to do 360 that I felt the pinch. Currently there are a couple blue, white walkers as well as Ral Zarek and Ashiok that would be added if I wasn't trying to keep it down. 3 per color and ~1 per guild is what I am shooting for. (Plus Colorless and flip walkers) The only place that has been impossible for me to hold to that is Ajani Vengent and Nahiri, both of which I love and feel do very different things.
But cube is about expressing yourself. Play the cards you want to see. I like seeing a superfirends deck every other draft or so, and a walker centric control deck fairly often, and so far I am in a good place.
I'm a fan of caps as I do think that the PW card type tends to have a stronger power level on average and eventually this results in too many spell/creature slots becoming walker slots and packs that are planeswalker dense. I recently raised my cap on walker slots per color/colorless to 3 (1 per guild) and while this has improved my cube, I wouldn't want the packs to become anymore planeswalker dense than they are now. I've seen some white sections of small/medium cubes 5 or more walkers deep and many cubes run 2 izzet/gruul walkers in 3-5 card sections. They may be objectively better cards, but it warps draft and even games--having this minigame nearly every game in my opinion detracts from the fun factor of seeing a planeswalker hit the battlefield.
I'm not wild about the assertion that instituting caps suggests other weaknesses in one's cube design. I think its only a matter of preference as many other things are in cube. It is different, but not less than. I think the problems of not having caps aren't going to be fully realized for several more sets and right now it is easier to dismiss the necessity of these caps, but I believe we will see more cubes adopting these caps as more great walkers are printed. I acknowledge that great creatures/spells will be printed as well but I doubt these will take a planeswalker's place in cubes without caps as frequently as the reverse will be true.
Planeswalker gameplay can be interesting, but I don't like too many of them. Key reason being I think most of them lack interesting synergy when drafting and deck building..
While I don't have a hardcap on my planeswalkers, I am conscious of how many there are, and if I think gameplay or deck building is starting to suffer because of them, I will limit them. Basically as it stands, a planeswalker needs to be very good to make my list. I try to avoid mediocre ones that barely make my list due to power.
With my latest round of changes I will have 21 or 22 in 410 cards, not including the flip walkers. It's lower than I expected. I have not consciously tried to cap walkers but some have been the victim of avoiding too many similar cards and effects at a given CMC cost.
This is a good way to look at it as almost all the best ones are 4-5 mana. I doubt three will be crowded unless we get another good Lili at 3. As far as 6+ the bar for me is pretty high on any card at that CMC.
I went through the past 25 decks in our 3-0 archives and counted all the planeswalkers. 44 total played in 25 decks, giving us an average of 1.76 planeswalkers per winning deck. I don’t have any restrictions on planeswalkers, so I don’t see it as a problem as long as you have enough aggressive options / pack plenty of answers.
Its a problem IMO. The "you don't limit card type X so don't limit planeswalkers" argument does not hold with me. Planeswalkers are too new with not enough answers. Decks that don't play a large number of creatures have a difficult time handling something like that. White is getting more o-ring effects and black is getting more destroy planeswalker cards, so there will be a day for me when planeswalkers don't need to be limited
I dunno about PWs, but I recently looked at all the winning decks for the last year, and was shocked to find that, on average, 17/40 cards in the winning decks were lands! This is a land saturation percentage of 42.5%! =P
In all seriousness, I would only start to worry about PW's if they skewed really heavily into one archetype. As it is, there are good ramp PW's, good control PW's, good midrange value PW's, good aggro PW's, and even good combo PW's (eureka, flip jace in reanimator for example), so I don't see a problem when it's just a card type that's good in lots of decks.
I also don't think there's a dearth of answers in most colors. White has o-ring effects, black has actual PW kill, green will often have a better board presence, blue has bounce & counter, and red has burn. I WILL say, that the new redirect rule has now bitten me on the ass twice in red, once in a deck running guttersnipe and once in a deck with both rolling earthquake and fiery confluence. Red already had the hardest time dealing with PW's (often having to 2-for-1 itself with burn spells), and it was the only color really hurt by the rule in cube.
I hate the new rule, but I still don't think PW density is a problem.
Edit - PW's were first printed in 2007. They have been part of magic for 11 years, or nearly half the game's 25 year life. I don't think we can call them "new" anymore =P
My current 540 list has something like 35 walkers, and I'd like to add 4 more, making the walker % of my cube a hair over 7%. This means that at my cube size a random pack would contain 1.08 Planeswalkers.
I don't really feel like walkers have been an issue in my cube or have skewed my drafts but I am a bit wary of oversaturation. I know some cube managers here cap walkers at 1, 2, or 3 per color and some don't see walkers as an issue at all. I'm curious what y'all are thinking about walker numbers and how you manage them as a card type in your cube.
I know the question of walker density has been tackled in the past, but I haven't found any conversation that is less than 2 years old and we've had some seeiosuly great walkers printed in recent sets. I'm curious what everyone is thinking about this topic these days.
So, how many walkers do you run? If you cap them, why? If you don't think they are an issue, why? Do superfriends decks dominate your cube meta? How do you make sure Planeswalkers are not OP? Let's discuss!
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It's something that I may write an article about. Someday. Maybe.
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It helps in your cube to have the higher powered stuff which is frankly fine but also puts pressure on the durdle do-nothing PWer superfriends decks that can show up. There are some unpowered lists where it might be oppressive--see some MODO lists where highpowered spells are removed but there are a million PWerss--but when I can channel or tinker or aggro etc it then the slower aspects of planeswalkers don't grind everything else/dominate the format.
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Usman, you should def do an article. I remember your podcast from a few years ago when you guys talked about maybe hitting some density point sometime in the future where capping walkers would be a good idea. Seems like we are pretty close to that point. I don't think I'd want much more than 1 walker per pack on average, and my cube is just about there.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I don't have any hard caps on planeswalkers, but I just try to maintain a feeling like all sorts of gameplay are represented in some manner. There should also be enchantments and artifacts, sorceries and instants, and I definitely don't want my aggro decks being dominated by planeswalkers. To prevent superfriends decks from crushing all opposition, I'm sure to include lots of interaction with PWs specifically (eg Hero's Downfall) as well as other cards that are just generally good at stopping those decks before they get rolling (eg land destruction, hand disruption). Although PWs are usually strong picks in our cube, I think the cube is pretty decent in delivering a variety of possible decks, and they operate smoothest when you go for a theme, and not just generic goodstuff.
I don't really see a point in capping the number of walkers if the decks my cube supports show up consistently. Nobody in my play group has drafted a superfriends deck yet but that sounds awful.
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Agreed with all of this.
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But cube is about expressing yourself. Play the cards you want to see. I like seeing a superfirends deck every other draft or so, and a walker centric control deck fairly often, and so far I am in a good place.
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I'm not wild about the assertion that instituting caps suggests other weaknesses in one's cube design. I think its only a matter of preference as many other things are in cube. It is different, but not less than. I think the problems of not having caps aren't going to be fully realized for several more sets and right now it is easier to dismiss the necessity of these caps, but I believe we will see more cubes adopting these caps as more great walkers are printed. I acknowledge that great creatures/spells will be printed as well but I doubt these will take a planeswalker's place in cubes without caps as frequently as the reverse will be true.
While I don't have a hardcap on my planeswalkers, I am conscious of how many there are, and if I think gameplay or deck building is starting to suffer because of them, I will limit them. Basically as it stands, a planeswalker needs to be very good to make my list. I try to avoid mediocre ones that barely make my list due to power.
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In all seriousness, I would only start to worry about PW's if they skewed really heavily into one archetype. As it is, there are good ramp PW's, good control PW's, good midrange value PW's, good aggro PW's, and even good combo PW's (eureka, flip jace in reanimator for example), so I don't see a problem when it's just a card type that's good in lots of decks.
I also don't think there's a dearth of answers in most colors. White has o-ring effects, black has actual PW kill, green will often have a better board presence, blue has bounce & counter, and red has burn. I WILL say, that the new redirect rule has now bitten me on the ass twice in red, once in a deck running guttersnipe and once in a deck with both rolling earthquake and fiery confluence. Red already had the hardest time dealing with PW's (often having to 2-for-1 itself with burn spells), and it was the only color really hurt by the rule in cube.
I hate the new rule, but I still don't think PW density is a problem.
Edit - PW's were first printed in 2007. They have been part of magic for 11 years, or nearly half the game's 25 year life. I don't think we can call them "new" anymore =P
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