Demonlord Belzenlok
4BB
Legendary Creature — Elder Demon
6/6
Flying, trample
When Demonlord Belzenlok enters the battlefield, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card, then put that card into your hand. If the card's converted mana cost is 4 or greater, repeat this process. Demonlord Belzenlok deals 1 damage to you for each card put into your hand this way.
Not bad at all. ETB draw a card that's not a land, potentially more and the life loss isn't awful. Thoughts?
I was always impressed what a 6/6 flying trample could do from abyssal persecutor, but I'm sure it costing 4 cmc had a lot to do with that.
Probably Draws 1.2 nonland cards on ETB in a reanimator deck and/or a few evoke/delve cards.
Certainly solid, and wouldn't blow my mind if this #3 black 6 drop (probably not).
Is this the 6 drop we've been waiting for? Body is huge and it draws at least one relevant card on ETB. Seems like a solid reanimator target and is easily castable, plus it's huge, has the elusive flample, and downright Satanic art.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm unsure about this card. My intuition is that it won't quite get there in at 450, but I could be wrong.
I ran some simulations to see how its draw ability usually functions. "Hits" are defined to be cards with cmc 4 or greater (not including Belzenlock himself). Some quick estimates showed this number to usually be around 6 - 10 in drafted decks (lower for midrange, higher for combo/heavy control). With these numbers, he usually draws you 1 card (that card is guaranteed to be a nonland card with cmc 3 or less). He will only very rarely draw you 3 or more (18% chance with 10 cmc 4 or greater cards in your deck, not counting Belzenlock)
A 6/6 flying trampler is obviously an excellent body, but probably not cubeable alone. It depends on how effective you think drawing a 3 cmc or less spell will affect the game, because that's most often what you're going to get with him.
My Cubes - The Busted Cube. A fully functional, almost 100% custom cube. The project started out by asking "What if other colors got cards on the power level of Mana Drain,Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk?" Draft and enjoy!
In that case, I’d say it’s roughly equivalent to “Draw 2, lose 2”. By the time you get to hardcast this, your lands are going to be pretty dead draws, so even just 1.33 spells is about equivalent to a draw 2 at that point in the game. On average you’ll take less damage, but the outside possibility of disaster might dissuade you from casting this in certain situations, so it mostly balances out.
A 6/6 Flying Trample Phyrexian Gargantuna sounds pretty damn good to me. I think time will prove it to be the clear #2 in the slot.
In that case, I’d say it’s roughly equivalent to “Draw 2, lose 2”. By the time you get to hardcast this, your lands are going to be pretty dead draws, so even just 1.33 spells is about equivalent to a draw 2 at that point in the game.
If you are a control deck, you still want to drop a land every turn even after turn 6. If you reanimate him, it is early enough that lands are crucial. Even in midrange you want to cast several spells a turn sometimes, activate manlands, use mana sinks etc. I think draw 2 is still much better.
I think this dude is absurd, and that's exactly why I don't really want him in my cube. He's too huge with too little investment with too easy an upside. I know I'm the only one around here who judges cards on this basis, but that's my reasoning for excluding him.
In that case, I’d say it’s roughly equivalent to “Draw 2, lose 2”. By the time you get to hardcast this, your lands are going to be pretty dead draws, so even just 1.33 spells is about equivalent to a draw 2 at that point in the game. On average you’ll take less damage, but the outside possibility of disaster might dissuade you from casting this in certain situations, so it mostly balances out.
A 6/6 Flying Trample Phyrexian Gargantuna sounds pretty damn good to me. I think time will prove it to be the clear #2 in the slot.
But that card is almost always going to be a card with cmc 3 or less. T6 is the time when a control deck should start turning the corner, and he's not great in midrange because they're even more likely to just draw 1. I don't think a 6/6 that usually only draws me a cmc 3 or less card is going to help me turn that corner better than Noxious Gearhulk or Massacre Wurm, even if it has a fat butt. I could be wrong, but I don't see this cracking the top 2 black 6 cmc options, and therefore won't crack most cubes.
My Cubes - The Busted Cube. A fully functional, almost 100% custom cube. The project started out by asking "What if other colors got cards on the power level of Mana Drain,Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk?" Draft and enjoy!
In that case, I’d say it’s roughly equivalent to “Draw 2, lose 2”. By the time you get to hardcast this, your lands are going to be pretty dead draws, so even just 1.33 spells is about equivalent to a draw 2 at that point in the game. On average you’ll take less damage, but the outside possibility of disaster might dissuade you from casting this in certain situations, so it mostly balances out.
A 6/6 Flying Trample Phyrexian Gargantuna sounds pretty damn good to me. I think time will prove it to be the clear #2 in the slot.
But that card is almost always going to be a card with cmc 3 or less. T6 is the time when a control deck should start turning the corner. I don't think a 6/6 that usually draws me a cmc 3 or less card is going to help me turn that corner better than Noxious Gearhulk or Massacre Wurm, even if it has a fat butt. I could be wrong, but I don't see this cracking the top 2 black 6 cmc options, and therefore won't crack most cubes.
There are some weird assumptions in your comment. This is guaranteed to draw you at least one spell with around a 25-30% at drawing more in the average deck (and sometimes you win the lottery). Spells are what I want to be drawing once I’m casting 6-drops. Why get hung up on whether or not they’re 3CMC or less? In cube, that could mean Recurring Nightmare, True-Name Nemesis, or Demonic Tutor.
Also, that body upgrade isn’t just a fat butt. It’s easy to construct scenarios where Gearhulk or Wurm trade off on the ground, get brickwalled by a stream of tokens, or more frequently don’t have any high-value targets. Very few boardstates deal with Belzenlok; it requires hard removal while netting you value every time.
Power level aside, this sure seems... plain, for the BIG BAD LEGENDARY DEMON of Magic's most historic plane. Like, it's a good size, good rate... but it draws you one? card... maybe two... and this SUPER POWERFUL DEMON who've you've entered into a pact with will extract his toll of... one or two damage?
In that case, I’d say it’s roughly equivalent to “Draw 2, lose 2”. By the time you get to hardcast this, your lands are going to be pretty dead draws, so even just 1.33 spells is about equivalent to a draw 2 at that point in the game.
If you are a control deck, you still want to drop a land every turn even after turn 6. If you reanimate him, it is early enough that lands are crucial. Even in midrange you want to cast several spells a turn sometimes, activate manlands, use mana sinks etc. I think draw 2 is still much better.
I agree that draw 2 lose 2 every time would be clearly better than his ability. The value of drawing a spell is greater than a land on average, but it's not worth half a card more. The randomness of his ability also means you can't plan around the life loss effectively.
Looking at Tjoran's numbers, I think I underestimated how good the ETB card draw is... It further solidified my opinion that I have no interest in playing the demonlord in a hard control deck (My cube supports lower curved, spell heavy blue decks) but in a reanimator deck that wants to hardcast it's targets, I'm more intrigued.
I'd strongly consider him if my cube was very "dragony", with high curves and under supported agro/midrange archetypes. IE He might be better than massacre wurm in the modo vintage cube. Most cubes I've seen on this site have plenty of tokens and small creatures that provide ample food for massacre wurms appetite.. Making the top 2 competition extremely stiff.
In that case, I’d say it’s roughly equivalent to “Draw 2, lose 2”. By the time you get to hardcast this, your lands are going to be pretty dead draws, so even just 1.33 spells is about equivalent to a draw 2 at that point in the game. On average you’ll take less damage, but the outside possibility of disaster might dissuade you from casting this in certain situations, so it mostly balances out.
A 6/6 Flying Trample Phyrexian Gargantuna sounds pretty damn good to me. I think time will prove it to be the clear #2 in the slot.
But that card is almost always going to be a card with cmc 3 or less. T6 is the time when a control deck should start turning the corner. I don't think a 6/6 that usually draws me a cmc 3 or less card is going to help me turn that corner better than Noxious Gearhulk or Massacre Wurm, even if it has a fat butt. I could be wrong, but I don't see this cracking the top 2 black 6 cmc options, and therefore won't crack most cubes.
There are some weird assumptions in your comment. This is guaranteed to draw you at least one spell with around a 25-30% at drawing more in the average deck (and sometimes you win the lottery). Spells are what I want to be drawing once I’m casting 6-drops. Why get hung up on whether or not they’re 3CMC or less? In cube, that could mean Recurring Nightmare, True-Name Nemesis, or Demonic Tutor.
What assumptions are you referring to? I didn't say it couldn't help you turn the game around - just that I didn't think it was better at that than Gearhulk (it's close) or Wurm (less close imo). Sure, drawing a spell is relevant to the game state, but it's unclear if that benefit makes the card better existing black 6 cmc options. CMC of the card is absolutely relevant - CMC > 3 cards are still more likely to affect the board state in your favor than cmc < 4, and that’s still true for cube. You could argue low cmc allows you to double spell on t7, which is true, but I'd still argue on average you'd rather draw high cmc.
Also, that body upgrade isn’t just a fat butt. It’s easy to construct scenarios where Gearhulk or Wurm trade off on the ground, get brickwalled by a stream of tokens, or more frequently don’t have any high-value targets. Very few boardstates deal with Belzenlok; it requires hard removal while netting you value every time.
It's similarly trivial to construct boardstates where Belzenlok is garbage when Gearhulk is great (ie against a big, hard to remove threat) or when Wurm is great (Wurm is often even lethal by itself in those scenarios). Belzenlock is better than both on an empty board and better at finishing (ie better when you're ahead). But I want my 6 cmc cards to stabilize and catch me up, and I don't think Belzenlock does that better than the other two, enough so that I would definitely rather cube Wurm, and would probably cube Gearhulk over it. And I don’t cube either of those.
That's not to say I couldn’t end up being wrong - maybe the card plays better than I'm anticipating. But currently I don't think I'll test it, and I really doubt it will crack #2.
My Cubes - The Busted Cube. A fully functional, almost 100% custom cube. The project started out by asking "What if other colors got cards on the power level of Mana Drain,Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk?" Draft and enjoy!
In that case, I’d say it’s roughly equivalent to “Draw 2, lose 2”. By the time you get to hardcast this, your lands are going to be pretty dead draws, so even just 1.33 spells is about equivalent to a draw 2 at that point in the game. On average you’ll take less damage, but the outside possibility of disaster might dissuade you from casting this in certain situations, so it mostly balances out.
A 6/6 Flying Trample Phyrexian Gargantuna sounds pretty damn good to me. I think time will prove it to be the clear #2 in the slot.
But that card is almost always going to be a card with cmc 3 or less. T6 is the time when a control deck should start turning the corner. I don't think a 6/6 that usually draws me a cmc 3 or less card is going to help me turn that corner better than Noxious Gearhulk or Massacre Wurm, even if it has a fat butt. I could be wrong, but I don't see this cracking the top 2 black 6 cmc options, and therefore won't crack most cubes.
There are some weird assumptions in your comment. This is guaranteed to draw you at least one spell with around a 25-30% at drawing more in the average deck (and sometimes you win the lottery). Spells are what I want to be drawing once I’m casting 6-drops. Why get hung up on whether or not they’re 3CMC or less? In cube, that could mean Recurring Nightmare, True-Name Nemesis, or Demonic Tutor.
What assumptions are you referring to? I didn't say it couldn't help you turn the game around - just that I didn't think it was better at that than Gearhulk (it's close) or Wurm (less close imo). Sure, drawing a spell is relevant to the game state, but it's unclear if that benefit makes the card better existing black 6 cmc options. CMC of the card is absolutely relevant - CMC > 3 cards are still more likely to affect the board state in your favor than cmc < 4, and that’s still true for cube. You could argue low cmc allows you to double spell on t7, which is true, but I'd still argue on average you'd rather draw high cmc.
It feels like you’re using the logic of: “Belzenlok only draws you spells. The majority of spells in decks are less than 4 CMC. Spells less than 4 CMC are low-impact. Therefore most of the spells you draw are low-impact. Therefore Belzenlok is low-impact.” Which is obviously faulty. Just because the last spell it draws is going to be 3 CMC or less doesn’t have any bearing on the type of cards it draws you, other than that they’re spells.
It’s a mentality of “This card is going to end with hitting a >3CMC spell, and that’s usually all it’s going to do” vs “This card draws me to the next spell in my deck no matter what, and sometimes it draws two or three spells”. I think the second is the better way to think about this card. Maybe you’re right and it’s not good enough from behind, but Consecrated Sphinx and Primeval Titan prove you don’t have to be removal on a stick at this cmc.
It feels like you’re using the logic of: “Belzenlok only draws you spells. The majority of spells in decks are less than 4 CMC. Spells less than 4 CMC are low-impact. Therefore most of the spells you draw are low-impact. Therefore Belzenlok is low-impact.” Which is obviously faulty. Just because the last spell it draws is going to be 3 CMC or less doesn’t have any bearing on the type of cards it draws you, other than that they’re spells.
But you can't consider the type of cards it draws you when evaluating it, because that's completely random. Sure, the card is excellent when it draws you a Demonic Tutor or True-Name Nemesis. But it's just as likely to draw you a Dimir Signet or Ponder.
If you're trying to stabilize, you just want to draw removal with him, in which case you should probably just play Noxious Gearhulk (ie removal on a stick).
It’s a mentality of “This card is going to end with hitting a >3CMC spell, and that’s usually all it’s going to do” vs “This card draws me to the next spell in my deck no matter what, and sometimes it draws two or three spells”. I think the second is the better way to think about this card. Maybe you’re right and it’s not good enough from behind, but Consecrated Sphinx and Primeval Titan prove you don’t have to be removal on a stick at this cmc.
I guess I don't really see the difference. I wouldn't consider the "sometimes it draws two or three spells" thing relevant - it draws 2 spells about 20% of the time and 3 spells less than 10% of the time. It's true it automatically gets you to your next spell, which is nice, but it only flips 0.42 lands on average, and like others have said you often still want lands in a control deck on t6. Both of those creatures generate continuous value besides attacking, which is not something Belzenlok does.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Cubes - The Busted Cube. A fully functional, almost 100% custom cube. The project started out by asking "What if other colors got cards on the power level of Mana Drain,Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk?" Draft and enjoy!
4BB
Legendary Creature — Elder Demon
6/6
Flying, trample
When Demonlord Belzenlok enters the battlefield, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card, then put that card into your hand. If the card's converted mana cost is 4 or greater, repeat this process. Demonlord Belzenlok deals 1 damage to you for each card put into your hand this way.
Not bad at all. ETB draw a card that's not a land, potentially more and the life loss isn't awful. Thoughts?
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Please draft my Cube! I'll draft yours in return! http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/86999
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Please draft my Cube! I'll draft yours in return! http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/86999
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Agree with this.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Probably Draws 1.2 nonland cards on ETB in a reanimator deck and/or a few evoke/delve cards.
Certainly solid, and wouldn't blow my mind if this #3 black 6 drop (probably not).
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Is this the 6 drop we've been waiting for? Body is huge and it draws at least one relevant card on ETB. Seems like a solid reanimator target and is easily castable, plus it's huge, has the elusive flample, and downright Satanic art.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I ran some simulations to see how its draw ability usually functions. "Hits" are defined to be cards with cmc 4 or greater (not including Belzenlock himself). Some quick estimates showed this number to usually be around 6 - 10 in drafted decks (lower for midrange, higher for combo/heavy control). With these numbers, he usually draws you 1 card (that card is guaranteed to be a nonland card with cmc 3 or less). He will only very rarely draw you 3 or more (18% chance with 10 cmc 4 or greater cards in your deck, not counting Belzenlock)
A 6/6 flying trampler is obviously an excellent body, but probably not cubeable alone. It depends on how effective you think drawing a 3 cmc or less spell will affect the game, because that's most often what you're going to get with him.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
A 6/6 Flying Trample Phyrexian Gargantuna sounds pretty damn good to me. I think time will prove it to be the clear #2 in the slot.
Cubetutor Link
If you are a control deck, you still want to drop a land every turn even after turn 6. If you reanimate him, it is early enough that lands are crucial. Even in midrange you want to cast several spells a turn sometimes, activate manlands, use mana sinks etc. I think draw 2 is still much better.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
But that card is almost always going to be a card with cmc 3 or less. T6 is the time when a control deck should start turning the corner, and he's not great in midrange because they're even more likely to just draw 1. I don't think a 6/6 that usually only draws me a cmc 3 or less card is going to help me turn that corner better than Noxious Gearhulk or Massacre Wurm, even if it has a fat butt. I could be wrong, but I don't see this cracking the top 2 black 6 cmc options, and therefore won't crack most cubes.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
There are some weird assumptions in your comment. This is guaranteed to draw you at least one spell with around a 25-30% at drawing more in the average deck (and sometimes you win the lottery). Spells are what I want to be drawing once I’m casting 6-drops. Why get hung up on whether or not they’re 3CMC or less? In cube, that could mean Recurring Nightmare, True-Name Nemesis, or Demonic Tutor.
Also, that body upgrade isn’t just a fat butt. It’s easy to construct scenarios where Gearhulk or Wurm trade off on the ground, get brickwalled by a stream of tokens, or more frequently don’t have any high-value targets. Very few boardstates deal with Belzenlok; it requires hard removal while netting you value every time.
Cubetutor Link
I agree that draw 2 lose 2 every time would be clearly better than his ability. The value of drawing a spell is greater than a land on average, but it's not worth half a card more. The randomness of his ability also means you can't plan around the life loss effectively.
Looking at Tjoran's numbers, I think I underestimated how good the ETB card draw is... It further solidified my opinion that I have no interest in playing the demonlord in a hard control deck (My cube supports lower curved, spell heavy blue decks) but in a reanimator deck that wants to hardcast it's targets, I'm more intrigued.
I'd strongly consider him if my cube was very "dragony", with high curves and under supported agro/midrange archetypes. IE He might be better than massacre wurm in the modo vintage cube. Most cubes I've seen on this site have plenty of tokens and small creatures that provide ample food for massacre wurms appetite.. Making the top 2 competition extremely stiff.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
What assumptions are you referring to? I didn't say it couldn't help you turn the game around - just that I didn't think it was better at that than Gearhulk (it's close) or Wurm (less close imo). Sure, drawing a spell is relevant to the game state, but it's unclear if that benefit makes the card better existing black 6 cmc options. CMC of the card is absolutely relevant - CMC > 3 cards are still more likely to affect the board state in your favor than cmc < 4, and that’s still true for cube. You could argue low cmc allows you to double spell on t7, which is true, but I'd still argue on average you'd rather draw high cmc.
It's similarly trivial to construct boardstates where Belzenlok is garbage when Gearhulk is great (ie against a big, hard to remove threat) or when Wurm is great (Wurm is often even lethal by itself in those scenarios). Belzenlock is better than both on an empty board and better at finishing (ie better when you're ahead). But I want my 6 cmc cards to stabilize and catch me up, and I don't think Belzenlock does that better than the other two, enough so that I would definitely rather cube Wurm, and would probably cube Gearhulk over it. And I don’t cube either of those.
That's not to say I couldn’t end up being wrong - maybe the card plays better than I'm anticipating. But currently I don't think I'll test it, and I really doubt it will crack #2.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
It feels like you’re using the logic of: “Belzenlok only draws you spells. The majority of spells in decks are less than 4 CMC. Spells less than 4 CMC are low-impact. Therefore most of the spells you draw are low-impact. Therefore Belzenlok is low-impact.” Which is obviously faulty. Just because the last spell it draws is going to be 3 CMC or less doesn’t have any bearing on the type of cards it draws you, other than that they’re spells.
It’s a mentality of “This card is going to end with hitting a >3CMC spell, and that’s usually all it’s going to do” vs “This card draws me to the next spell in my deck no matter what, and sometimes it draws two or three spells”. I think the second is the better way to think about this card. Maybe you’re right and it’s not good enough from behind, but Consecrated Sphinx and Primeval Titan prove you don’t have to be removal on a stick at this cmc.
Cubetutor Link
But you can't consider the type of cards it draws you when evaluating it, because that's completely random. Sure, the card is excellent when it draws you a Demonic Tutor or True-Name Nemesis. But it's just as likely to draw you a Dimir Signet or Ponder.
If you're trying to stabilize, you just want to draw removal with him, in which case you should probably just play Noxious Gearhulk (ie removal on a stick).
I guess I don't really see the difference. I wouldn't consider the "sometimes it draws two or three spells" thing relevant - it draws 2 spells about 20% of the time and 3 spells less than 10% of the time. It's true it automatically gets you to your next spell, which is nice, but it only flips 0.42 lands on average, and like others have said you often still want lands in a control deck on t6. Both of those creatures generate continuous value besides attacking, which is not something Belzenlok does.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered