Hello, this is my first thread here
I'm interested in your opinion on an idea that was tossed around in my play group and I'm sure many others too.
We wonder if playing cards like Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun and The Lost Vale parts and ignoring the nonland, sometimes pretty worse part would be too good or not.
So, what do you think? Did you tried this idea? Discuss!
Morally (ethically? also: lol) I wouldn't do it for myself as I'm against errata'ing cards, but if you're playing with mana vault/sol ring/skull clamp/etc then none of them are really so much more broken than those cards to seem out of place.
The only thing to note would be that it wouldn't work if you play with your list on xmage, but that affects like 3 people on here so mostly ignore that lol
The idea has been thrown around a lot, you’re essentially cubing with custom cards at that point. If I were to do it, Lost Vale and Cradle are the two I wouldn’t run because they’re strictly better than already ridiculous existing cards.
I like to play with real cards without any custom rules to make the process easier, but if your playgroup is for it than go for it.
I think a few judiciously designed custom cards could be fun. I doubt my group would go for it, but I've always loved . . . I'm drawing a blank on the member's name who designed it for his cube . . . this card called Collapsing Plane, which forces sac of permanents after a few turns for damage. Just a beautifully designed card. I wish Wizards would print something like it so I could include it in my cube.
Playing these cards preflipped seems like playing Delver or Jace preflipped and just making up a mana cost for them. Not interested at all. I get why people would, but at that point, you ought to just be proxying Cradle or whatever like the rest of us.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Lost Vale is beyond broken as regular land. It's strictly better than the Vintage-defining Mishra's Workshop. Is there literally anything you'd pick before this lovechild of Workshop and Lotus Vale?
Primal Wellspring might be more powerful still. Free Forks and mana of any color without a drawback?
Yeah I forgot what Lost Vale did; it would probably be the best card in cube if it was just the land, errataing cards that end up being better than sol ring seems wrong.
I think the only one I could consider doing it for is Arguel's Blood Fast//Temple of Aclazotz. Diamond Valley always seemed interesting (uncounterable, life-gaining sac outlet) but not powerful enough for cube, and Temple of Aclaztoz is the weakest of the fliplands but seems on the button as a strong utility land.
The main problem is that I plan to run the blue enchantment so having to always remind people that the blue one changes back and the black one doesn't might get annoying, but ultimately I think people will remember after a couple of drafts.
As with any cube decision it's entirely up to you. I personally think most of them are pretty nutso (Lost Vale, Cradle and wellspring) being the worst offenders) if you get to play the land side without jumping through the hoops, but I think Temple of Aclazotz is totally fine and don't think Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin would bust the average cube wide open (but I plan to play it as the enchantment).
It would be interesting to hear how it goes for people. If I open Arguel's Blood Fast//Temple of Aclazotz I will give it a shot in land for for a few drafts and report back.
Conqueror's Foothold is one I'm going to try like this. I've ran a custom cycle of lands before but they felt cheaty then didn't need them. This land feels a hit more balanced by being colourless and very grindy. The black one could also work but the rest are insane. I already run cradle and maze so don't need better illegitimate versions.
It may well be really good and I might also test it as the galleon, but I can't see it being the best land in the cube. I guess it's a lot more playable than other top tier lands as, for example, library is nuts but without card draw it can be just a colourless land if top decked late. Foothold's fine early since most decks can afford the colourless land and is a value engine late.
I don't have the same visceral negative reaction to this idea that some people on this thread do, but I'm not planning on running these flipped lands in my own cube. If you decide to go that route, I suggest you make an optional supplement for your cube, then let your players decide whether or not to use it. That's what I do with Conspiracies.
Seems like people are pretty aggressively against this, at least in their own cubes. It's your cube - if you want to do it, do it! I'd still play a cube with errata'd cards like that, although if we're talking power level some are way too good. In terms of a regular powered cube, the blue one, black one, and maybe the white one are on the correct power level. The others are likely much too strong.
If you have an unpowered cube, I'd be a bit more careful since they're likely to be slam first picks over pretty much everything. I'd probably have a blast playing them.
And I strongly disagree with the idea that you should just, say, proxy a gaea's cradle instead of using the flipped side of this cradle. I know of at least a few people that hate playing with proxies - at least this method gets you half a real magic card. It 100% depends on your own personal preference.
My Cubes - The Busted Cube. A fully functional, almost 100% custom cube. The project started out by asking "What if other colors got cards on the power level of Mana Drain,Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk?" Draft and enjoy!
I'll make an effort to revive this thread despite the nearly unanimous hatred for this idea.
We have new enemy-color flip lands. What's your opinion on the fairness/power-level of the new cycle? Obviously things like Gold-Forge Garrison would be ridiculously broken as a stand-alone land. And Tomb of the Dusk Rose wouldn't even function. Does this simple 'any color mana' clause make then all too broken anyway?
I think producing any color mana with no downside makes it an absurdly high pick! Not even fair compared to City of Brass and the like! Wouldn't say its broken, but it would be one of best lands/cards to draft.
I mean, even though I wrote a devil's advocate type post deliberating some reasons for using flip-lands, I would still never do it. Since they were never intended to be used that way, it's the same as playing custom cards, in my opinion.
So the way I see it, Ixa-flipsides are like customs, without any of the upside of customs.
To answer @FuneralofGod's question, Paliano, the High City is a high pick in my cube. I wouldn't exclude a non-lifeloss City of Brass if they ever printed that card, but it would be one of the highest picks in the cube.
Yeah the mana of any color makes them a bit too strong if you're thinking about it purely in a power level sense. If you want a budget Cradle, the flip side of Itlimoc is ok.
Paliano, the High City is also in my cube, but it rarely works. If you take it early it can be great but in P3 when its relatively obvious what people aren't in its often a bad basic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Cubes - The Busted Cube. A fully functional, almost 100% custom cube. The project started out by asking "What if other colors got cards on the power level of Mana Drain,Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk?" Draft and enjoy!
Not for me, I didn't even like transform cards to begin with, but I've broken down and added them anyway. Now if you were to some how consolidate all the cards from the print this card thread into a cube, and play with it, that would be interesting.
So I kind of took a plunge on this a few months back and added Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun, Vault of Catlacan and Spires of Orazca for the Gaea's Cradle, Tolarian Academy and Maze of Ith effects on a budget and the results have been very positive with my group. I also gambled on Spitfire Bastion and it's starting to cause a problem as it basically gives inevitability to any deck running red. It reminds me a bit of Kessig Wolf Run in terms of its long game worth but way way better! The rest I feel are all either not relevant enough or just straight over powered.
So I kind of took a plunge on this a few months back and added Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun, Vault of Catlacan and Spires of Orazca for the Gaea's Cradle, Tolarian Academy and Maze of Ith effects on a budget and the results have been very positive with my group. I also gambled on Spitfire Bastion and it's starting to cause a problem as it basically gives inevitability to any deck running red. It reminds me a bit of Kessig Wolf Run in terms of its long game worth but way way better! The rest I feel are all either not relevant enough or just straight over powered.
I think the problem with adding them to mirror the effect of a more expensive card is that in most cases they are strictly better than their "real" counterpart. I still maintain Temple of Aclazotz is the only non-busted inclusion.
Spitfire Bastion is like an aggressive players wet dream; you could add another 2 mana to the cost and a lot of cubes would still run it.
I'm interested in your opinion on an idea that was tossed around in my play group and I'm sure many others too.
We wonder if playing cards like Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun and The Lost Vale parts and ignoring the nonland, sometimes pretty worse part would be too good or not.
So, what do you think? Did you tried this idea? Discuss!
The only thing to note would be that it wouldn't work if you play with your list on xmage, but that affects like 3 people on here so mostly ignore that lol
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I like to play with real cards without any custom rules to make the process easier, but if your playgroup is for it than go for it.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
But like all pretend/custom cards and house rules, if your entire playgroup wants to, go for it I guess?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Playing these cards preflipped seems like playing Delver or Jace preflipped and just making up a mana cost for them. Not interested at all. I get why people would, but at that point, you ought to just be proxying Cradle or whatever like the rest of us.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Primal Wellspring might be more powerful still. Free Forks and mana of any color without a drawback?
Spires of Orazca and Spitfire Bastion also strike me as too strong, too good against creatures.
The others are potentially okay, though Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin provides impressive card advantage and selection.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
The main problem is that I plan to run the blue enchantment so having to always remind people that the blue one changes back and the black one doesn't might get annoying, but ultimately I think people will remember after a couple of drafts.
As with any cube decision it's entirely up to you. I personally think most of them are pretty nutso (Lost Vale, Cradle and wellspring) being the worst offenders) if you get to play the land side without jumping through the hoops, but I think Temple of Aclazotz is totally fine and don't think Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin would bust the average cube wide open (but I plan to play it as the enchantment).
It would be interesting to hear how it goes for people. If I open Arguel's Blood Fast//Temple of Aclazotz I will give it a shot in land for for a few drafts and report back.
Thread Cubetutor
My Other Cubes
Pauper Cube
One-Drop Cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Thread Cubetutor
My Other Cubes
Pauper Cube
One-Drop Cube
If you have an unpowered cube, I'd be a bit more careful since they're likely to be slam first picks over pretty much everything. I'd probably have a blast playing them.
And I strongly disagree with the idea that you should just, say, proxy a gaea's cradle instead of using the flipped side of this cradle. I know of at least a few people that hate playing with proxies - at least this method gets you half a real magic card. It 100% depends on your own personal preference.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
We have new enemy-color flip lands. What's your opinion on the fairness/power-level of the new cycle? Obviously things like Gold-Forge Garrison would be ridiculously broken as a stand-alone land. And Tomb of the Dusk Rose wouldn't even function. Does this simple 'any color mana' clause make then all too broken anyway?
Draft My Cube!
Yeah the mana of any color makes them a bit too strong if you're thinking about it purely in a power level sense. If you want a budget Cradle, the flip side of Itlimoc is ok.
Paliano, the High City is also in my cube, but it rarely works. If you take it early it can be great but in P3 when its relatively obvious what people aren't in its often a bad basic.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I think the problem with adding them to mirror the effect of a more expensive card is that in most cases they are strictly better than their "real" counterpart. I still maintain Temple of Aclazotz is the only non-busted inclusion.
Spitfire Bastion is like an aggressive players wet dream; you could add another 2 mana to the cost and a lot of cubes would still run it.