Blech. 6/5 flying, haste for four are not the stats I'm looking for. I get that aggro is the fun police, but yeesh.
You're saying this because it's too strong in your cube, correct?
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I like this but I'm not sure I like it enough to pull the trigger on buying this one. So far my C17 buylist is the axe, heirloom blade, and fractured identity.
I like this but I'm not sure I like it enough to pull the trigger on buying this one. So far my C17 buylist is the axe, heirloom blade, and fractured identity.
FWIW, this card has been pretty good in testing. It does what we expected it to - domes for 6. The rest is pure upside. It feels real bad against Lingering Souls and opposing planeswalkers, but it's hard to be disappointed with the card when it deals 6 damage for only 4 mana. Sure, it's rather boring (except when in a Moat deck!), but it does its job well.
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Bump... If anyone is tempted to test this card over Hazoret/Hero of oxid ridge, I can say something with great confidence that may help convince you(at least for my cube).
It does 12 points of damage much more often than it does 0 (assuming the card resolves). Meaning the probability it gets in 2 hits, is clearly higher than the probability it gets chump blocked or is answered at instant speed... and it rarely gets in 2 hits... because the game is often over by then.
For those who have experience with fiery confluence and knows the value of doming your opponent for 6 in red agro... maybe that can put it in perspective
Was not good for us. Attacks for the same or less damage than the other hasty 4-drop variants (even if it gets to attack twice), can't ever block, and can't attack planeswalkers. Easy pass, IMO.
It only beats them if each option only gets to attack once. With their 2nd swing, all the hastey 4-drops in red outpace it for damage, even with no other creatures out. And they can attack planeswalkers too.
Was not good for us. Attacks for the same or less damage than the other hasty 4-drop variants (even if it gets to attack twice), can't ever block, and can't attack planeswalkers. Easy pass, IMO.
In return though you get fully 5 points of defence. And on an empty board, the Hellkite beats the other hasty boys. We're not playing Territorial Hellkite, but this guy's always been on our radar.
It doesn’t beat Hazoret’s damage output over 3 turns and her being indestructible trumps 5 toughness.
Wayyyy easier to block on the ground than in the air to prevent damage from getting through. 6 damage by the time it's cast is often enough to end the game on the spot, which invalidates a lot of the long term damage output comparison...
Being able to power hellkite out early with Mana crypt/lotus etc, gives an edge over hazoret who can get stuck with cards in grip. The hellbent can't attack downside is not a rare downside. Also makes hazoret unplayable in counterburn.
I'm also saying this with a year experience of testing hellkite, for over a hundred cubes. I tested hazoret for a couple months in my cube , played him a ton on Modo cubes, and played with him on and off through all of standard. Not just theory crafting.
I would wager a lot of money that they aren't close in power in the majority of cubes. I say this with full confidence.
Possible there's some kind of cube specific thing going on here, and if you guys tested it throughly and didn't like it, all good! Happy you voicing opinions.
R has so many strong aggressive 4-drops that I feel I need an especially compelling pitch to take the one with the awkward multiplayer mechanic, plus Phasing really doesn't do it for me.
I appreciate your commentary on the card Lucid, but man do our experiences with the card differ. Being unable to pressure planeswalkers is a big deal, as is the "exert" trigger that it has. It doesn't outpace for damage against the competition, and it's advantages simply don't outweigh its shortcomings. I'm actually shocked that it's even a discussion; it was a severe disappointment. Hazoret, on the other hand, has been great. Indestructible is crucial, the reach is good. The splashability has been important... every aspect of the card has really shined. As often as I want to say the game just ends on T4 with the big attack, it often doesn't. Survivability still matters. Reach still matters. Pressuring 'walkers can still be important depending on the matchup. And damage over time still needs to keep pace even after T4. So while it's easy to say that the game just ends on T4, that's often not the case. And IF the opponent survives the first swing, I'd much rather have Hazoret on the board. Because I know it'll eventually just win the game. Whereas the Hellkite might just die, or can't attack but every other turn anyways. Even if I have to wait for Hazoret, the damage output is almost identical in all instances where the opponent doesn't just die. Flying is good, but it doesn't make up for all the other shortcomings. Not attacking planeswalkers is bad enough, but only attacking every other turn is a straight dealbreaker. Anyways, just my opinion/experiences with the card. I stopped drafting it even when I guest-draft other cubes because of how poorly it's worked out for me. Not even close to being close to cards like Hellrider, Koth or Hazoret.
But that's easily one of the best things about this format. Varying opinions are what keep things spicy!
I agree with the dragon outperforming Hazoret and Hero. It usually plays exactly like Confluence - you dome the opponent for six and they die or as good as. Drawback was usually irrelevant. Also a good out against Moat.
I appreciate your commentary on the card Lucid, but man do our experiences with the card differ. Being unable to pressure planeswalkers is a big deal, as is the "exert" trigger that it has. It doesn't outpace for damage against the competition, and it's advantages simply don't outweigh its shortcomings. I'm actually shocked that it's even a discussion; it was a severe disappointment. Hazoret, on the other hand, has been great. Indestructible is crucial, the reach is good. The splashability has been important... every aspect of the card has really shined. As often as I want to say the game just ends on T4 with the big attack, it often doesn't. Survivability still matters. Reach still matters. Pressuring 'walkers can still be important depending on the matchup. And damage over time still needs to keep pace even after T4. So while it's easy to say that the game just ends on T4, that's often not the case. And IF the opponent survives the first swing, I'd much rather have Hazoret on the board. Because I know it'll eventually just win the game. Whereas the Hellkite might just die, or can't attack but every other turn anyways. Even if I have to wait for Hazoret, the damage output is almost identical in all instances where the opponent doesn't just die. Flying is good, but it doesn't make up for all the other shortcomings. Not attacking planeswalkers is bad enough, but only attacking every other turn is a straight dealbreaker. Anyways, just my opinion/experiences with the card. I stopped drafting it even when I guest-draft other cubes because of how poorly it's worked out for me. Not even close to being close to cards like Hellrider, Koth or Hazoret.
But that's easily one of the best things about this format. Varying opinions are what keep things spicy!
Cheers, and happy cubing.
Yeah our experience differs a lot on a few of these points... I've found not attacking planeswalkers rarely mattering. By the time I'm casting an agro curve topper, the majority of the time I want to be hitting my opponent for 6 not his planeswalker. Even if the dragon's attack for 6 doesn't kill them on the spot, it'll often put them in burn range the next turn, that his planeswalker can't prevent...The dragon still has to be answered as well. Even if killing a planeswalker happens to be the superior option, 6+ damage to their face is usually a close alternative...
Plenty of exceptions to this pattern, but this is what I've found most common by a lot.
Anyway, clear we have such dramatically different experiences that we are probably drawing dead discussing something productive... but if you are drafting Rx agro in a friends cube and you see Territorial Hellkite late, humour me and pick it over a crappy other card and give it another shot
Will do. It's not that I won't play it over crap; I just elect to play cards like Hellrider, Koth and Hazoret over it. If the choice was between Hellkite and something like Moltensteel or whatever, I'd take the 6-power hastey one.
And I agree that going face is what I typically want to be doing with my aggro curve-topper. I just disagree about which one is the best at that role. They still have to deal with Hellkite if they survive, just like they have to deal with Koth or Hazoret too ...those cards are just a lot more resilient, don't die to the same sweepers that might stabilize them against the rest of your board, and often represent more damage than Hellkite if they need to attack on T5 too. Plus they can attack every turn, can attack 'walkers and they each have other built-in utility too, like Koth's ramp and Hazoret's discard/reach, which makes them valuable in decks and situations where simply attacking isn't the best course of action.
Hellkite has been awesome for us. I would cube it over Hazoret. It plays very much like a Fiery Confluence that makes them pay for a kill spell at some point over the next two turns instead of having the other modes.
I like Hazoret / Koth much more than Territorial Hellkite because of their resilience to common removal spells and the fact that they have just as much damage over 3 turns. Hellrider / Hazoret / Hero of Oxid Ridge all have a lot more potential damage than Territorial Hellkite over the span of 3 attack steps. It's also pretty easy to chump Territorial Hellkite with flyers where most other Hellrider variants have some form of reach.
Territorial Hellkite is definitely good at what it does, I just think it's the 6th best Hellrider variant after Hellrider / Koth / Hazoret / Fleetwheel Cruiser / Hero of Oxid Ridge.
Hellkite has been awesome for us. I would cube it over Hazoret. It plays very much like a Fiery Confluence that makes them pay for a kill spell at some point over the next two turns instead of having the other modes.
I’m with you here. I agree that it’s worse than Hazoret, Hellrider, Koth, and Fleetwheel (its even arguably better than fleetwheel in red decks), but at least at 450 there’s room for us. I don’t see it leaving the cube for a while.
You described it perfectly - it hits hard and then demands an answer. I like that it’s also fine in aggressive midrange decks (and plays well with Moat and Wildfire). I think for anyone looking to diversify red threats away from Hellriders, this is a good option (among many).
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Hellkite has been awesome for us. I would cube it over Hazoret. It plays very much like a Fiery Confluence that makes them pay for a kill spell at some point over the next two turns instead of having the other modes.
I think for anyone looking to diversify red threats away from Hellriders, this is a good option (among many).
I like this way of thinking.. While I believe it's better than hazoret and hero of oxid ridge it's definitely close enough that it realllly doesn't matter. Even if power level is central to your cube design thesis.
My thought process at this point is basically "Wheee I like dragons, they go rawr, I include this dragon". Your play group like egyptian jackal gods? evil knights riding a metal horse? Go for it.
Ya, I think that Hazoret/Koth are the options for diversifying away from the generic hard-hitting attackers at 4 like Hellrider/Hero/Hellkite since they attack from a different angle than the latter 3. Neither of them overextend into Wraths, and they also provide a different angle and/or some utility.
Looks like I misquoted the person above. I wouldn't play Hellkite over Hazoret, Hellrider, Koth, or Cruiser. But I think that it's more unique than Hero of Oxid Ride (which is basically just a worse Hellrider), especially given that it can go in midrange decks that aren't heavy on creatures.
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You're saying this because it's too strong in your cube, correct?
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Open question: Do you like this as a replacement to Blistering Firecat? Other potential suggestions for a cut for this if not the firecat?
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I like Hazoret / Abrade over both Hellkite / Firecat.
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It does 12 points of damage much more often than it does 0 (assuming the card resolves). Meaning the probability it gets in 2 hits, is clearly higher than the probability it gets chump blocked or is answered at instant speed... and it rarely gets in 2 hits... because the game is often over by then.
For those who have experience with fiery confluence and knows the value of doming your opponent for 6 in red agro... maybe that can put it in perspective
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It doesn’t beat Hazoret’s damage output over 3 turns and her being indestructible trumps 5 toughness.
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Being able to power hellkite out early with Mana crypt/lotus etc, gives an edge over hazoret who can get stuck with cards in grip. The hellbent can't attack downside is not a rare downside. Also makes hazoret unplayable in counterburn.
I'm also saying this with a year experience of testing hellkite, for over a hundred cubes. I tested hazoret for a couple months in my cube , played him a ton on Modo cubes, and played with him on and off through all of standard. Not just theory crafting.
I would wager a lot of money that they aren't close in power in the majority of cubes. I say this with full confidence.
Possible there's some kind of cube specific thing going on here, and if you guys tested it throughly and didn't like it, all good! Happy you voicing opinions.
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But that's easily one of the best things about this format. Varying opinions are what keep things spicy!
Cheers, and happy cubing.
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Yeah our experience differs a lot on a few of these points... I've found not attacking planeswalkers rarely mattering. By the time I'm casting an agro curve topper, the majority of the time I want to be hitting my opponent for 6 not his planeswalker. Even if the dragon's attack for 6 doesn't kill them on the spot, it'll often put them in burn range the next turn, that his planeswalker can't prevent...The dragon still has to be answered as well. Even if killing a planeswalker happens to be the superior option, 6+ damage to their face is usually a close alternative...
Plenty of exceptions to this pattern, but this is what I've found most common by a lot.
Anyway, clear we have such dramatically different experiences that we are probably drawing dead discussing something productive... but if you are drafting Rx agro in a friends cube and you see Territorial Hellkite late, humour me and pick it over a crappy other card and give it another shot
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And I agree that going face is what I typically want to be doing with my aggro curve-topper. I just disagree about which one is the best at that role. They still have to deal with Hellkite if they survive, just like they have to deal with Koth or Hazoret too ...those cards are just a lot more resilient, don't die to the same sweepers that might stabilize them against the rest of your board, and often represent more damage than Hellkite if they need to attack on T5 too. Plus they can attack every turn, can attack 'walkers and they each have other built-in utility too, like Koth's ramp and Hazoret's discard/reach, which makes them valuable in decks and situations where simply attacking isn't the best course of action.
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Territorial Hellkite is definitely good at what it does, I just think it's the 6th best Hellrider variant after Hellrider / Koth / Hazoret / Fleetwheel Cruiser / Hero of Oxid Ridge.
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I’m with you here. I agree that it’s worse than Hazoret, Hellrider, Koth, and Fleetwheel (its even arguably better than fleetwheel in red decks), but at least at 450 there’s room for us. I don’t see it leaving the cube for a while.
You described it perfectly - it hits hard and then demands an answer. I like that it’s also fine in aggressive midrange decks (and plays well with Moat and Wildfire). I think for anyone looking to diversify red threats away from Hellriders, this is a good option (among many).
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I like this way of thinking.. While I believe it's better than hazoret and hero of oxid ridge it's definitely close enough that it realllly doesn't matter. Even if power level is central to your cube design thesis.
My thought process at this point is basically "Wheee I like dragons, they go rawr, I include this dragon". Your play group like egyptian jackal gods? evil knights riding a metal horse? Go for it.
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered