It was a decent answer to planeswalkers when planeswalker removal was still really bad. Now there's just an abundance of cheap removal for everything to where this really isn't necessary, IMO. I cut Spyglass / Pithing Needle several years ago and have never looked back. They haven't aged well, and there's a lot more ways to pick them off anyways. Phyrexian Revoker is still decent though, especially in powered cubes where it can shut down mana rocks, but I also cut Revoker not too long ago to make space for other things.
It was a decent answer to planeswalkers when planeswalker removal was still really bad. Now there's just an abundance of cheap removal for everything to where this really isn't necessary, IMO. I cut Spyglass / Pithing Needle several years ago and have never looked back. They haven't aged well, and there's a lot more ways to pick them off anyways. Phyrexian Revoker is still decent though, especially in powered cubes where it can shut down mana rocks, but I also cut Revoker not too long ago to make space for other things.
X/1 are VERY weak recently due to the number of ping effects.
Just running some quick numbers, there are 79 cards in my cube that Needle/Spyglass completely "shut off" (like planeswalkers and Opposition and the like) where the card functions like a 1 or 2cc O-Ring against the target. And a further 104 cards that can be partially neutered by the card if named (like turning Mother of Runes or Goblin Welder into a vanilla 1/1). That's a fair amount of value for a cheap utility artifact.
The numbers have shifted a bit since this post, but the sentiment is still there. Cheap colorless answers to problematic permanents have continued to prove their worth over time.
Since the early days of these effects, planeswalkers have become cheaper and more powerful. Fetch/Strip chain combos have received more enablers. There are more ways to benefit from having passive artifacts in play. In my opinion, these effects seemed to have gained value over the years.
And Revoker's still a beast if you're powered, IMO.
In my opinion, these effects seemed to have gained value over the years.
I'd argue the opposite. While what you said about planeswalkers is true, the increased threat diversity in everything else has made narrow answers like Spyglass / Needle more of a liability. The abundance of more efficient Hero's Downfall / Oblivion Ring / Vindincate type effects have been going up in value for me while Needle / Spyglass have only gone down (partly due to the increased number of removal spells that can also destroy artifacts).
Kinda, but there's been some diverse types of threats printed, like Retrofitter and Converter, and it's been nice having cheap colorless answers to those kinds of win conditions. So not only have universally playable answers to 'walkers become more valuable, but colorless outs to those other kinds of threats have gained equity. Not to mention the surge of additional manlands, which can be shut off by these kinds of effects.
Cheap colorless answers to problematic permanents have continued to prove their worth over time.
To me this logic held up when Sorcerous Spyglass was first printed in 2017. Being colorless is nice, but it hasn't been worth the narrowness for me in a long time for a lot of reasons:
- We're really in the golden age in terms of the evolution of removal (which I feel like is worth writing an entire article about). Up until recently I've had to devote a lot of multicolored slots towards every Vindiciate / Maelstrom Pulse / Assassin's Trophy under the sun. It was difficult to deal with multiple card types (especially planeswalkers) without devoting a lot of multicolored slots to removal because they were mainly printing them to be multicolored, not mono colored. Now we're at the point where there's so many good monn colored options that I've been comfortable cutting a good amount of the multicolored options.
- The combination of more mono colored removal options (and just more options in general) in conjunction with better mana fixing has made it very easy for a deck to splash for answers. Black can't deal with arifacts directly when they're on the board, but does it really need to when every other color can?
- Sorcerous Spyglass's killer feature was its ability to answer planeswlakers was HOT back in the day since removal options were sparse, and it was harder to overpower them with creatures. I feel like planeswalkers were the huge boogeymen for about a 10 year stretch. I feel like it's the opposite now where they're kind of the good guys playing fair Magic in the era of Ragavan / Atraxa / initiative / etc, which Spyglass effects are absolutely useless against.
Cheap colorless answers to problematic permanents have continued to prove their worth over time.
To me this logic held up when Sorcerous Spyglass was first printed in 2017. Being colorless is nice, but it hasn't been worth the narrowness for me in a long time for a lot of reasons:
- We're really in the golden age in terms of the evolution of removal (which I feel like is worth writing an entire article about). Up until recently I've had to devote a lot of multicolored slots towards every Vindiciate / Maelstrom Pulse / Assassin's Trophy under the sun. It was difficult to deal with multiple card types (especially planeswalkers) without devoting a lot of multicolored slots to removal because they were mainly printing them to be multicolored, not mono colored. Now we're at the point where there's so many good monn colored options that I've been comfortable cutting a good amount of the multicolored options.
- The combination of more mono colored removal options (and just more options in general) in conjunction with better mana fixing has made it very easy for a deck to splash for answers. Black can't deal with arifacts directly when they're on the board, but does it really need to when every other color can?
- Sorcerous Spyglass's killer feature was its ability to answer planeswlakers was HOT back in the day since removal options were sparse, and it was harder to overpower them with creatures. I feel like planeswalkers were the huge boogeymen for about a 10 year stretch. I feel like it's the opposite now where they're kind of the good guys playing fair Magic in the era of Ragavan / Atraxa / initiative / etc, which Spyglass effects are absolutely useless against.
I feel the same way - I could see this being a bit more powerful if its able to proactively shut down fetchlands but yah.
I think the effects still offer a lot that other removal options don't, and I don't have to stretch my mana to splash for them. It's not just 'walkers. A lot of removal struggles with manlands, which these turn off, and don't do anything about getting strip locked, which Needles can also disable. So the "just splash for better removal" argument doesn't really hold up, and there's a lot of things these answer that nothing else can. Not to mention stranding fetchlands and trapping cards with activated abilities in the opponent's hand instead of having to let the opponent activate them once before answering them.
Your mileage has obviously varied, but I think they're both very good still.
I think the effects still offer a lot that other removal options don't, and I don't have to stretch my mana to splash for them. It's not just 'walkers. A lot of removal struggles with manlands
I feel like this is less true these days since Oblivion Ring effects aren't as ubiquitous anymore.
This simply is not true, there's more answers than ever to destroying Crucible of Worlds / Ramunap Excavator, not to mention maindeckable graveyard hate to exile the Strip Mine.
So the "just splash for better removal" argument doesn't really hold up, and there's a lot of things these answer that nothing else can.
Being able to hit manlands / Strip Mine / Library of Alexandria is great, but I still find it to be very narrow and low impact considering how many more things everything else hits. Something has to go terribly wrong in my draft if I have to main deck Sorcerous Spyglass in 2023.
I feel like this is less true these days since Oblivion Ring effects aren't as ubiquitous anymore.
I'm not sure what this means or how it relates to the part of my post you were quoting...
This simply is not true, there's more answers than ever to destroying Crucible of Worlds / Ramunap Excavator, not to mention maindeckable graveyard hate to exile the Strip Mine.
Which is great, but they're not all built into the same card, and they don't answer everything or do everything that Needle/Glass effects can do. Your graveyard hate won't turn off 'walkers. Your shatter effect won't turn off manlands. Your creature removal won't counter Recurring Nightmare. Like, I get what you're trying to say, but it just doesn't hold water because you're using a bunch of different cards to try to accomplish what I can get from Spyglass, and it still doesn't do nearly everything that Spyglass does. Plus, none of those removal spells deal with Loam-based locks.
Being able to hit manlands / Strip Mine / Library of Alexandria is great, but I still find it to be very narrow and low impact considering how many more things everything else hits.
What do you mean by "everything else"? How many splashable removal spells do you have access to that deal with enchantments, artifacts, manlands, 'walkers, strip/fetch effects, etc.? I'm all for trying to maximize my flexible removal spells, but they all fall short in some way or another in comparison to each other. They gain some ground in some areas, and lose out in others. There aren't many splashable Vindicates floating around, and even if we had a bottomless number of those, it still wouldn't do everything these effects can do, and certainly not for 1 or 2 ...
Something has to go terribly wrong in my draft if I have to main deck Sorcerous Spyglass in 2023.
I'm not saying YOU have to like the cards, or even play them. Someone else asked for their selling points, and I'm providing them. Clearly they're not for you.
..........
edit: After I typed all that out, I can't imagine this debate gaining much steam on either side. Let me know if you're cool calling it an "agree to disagree" position and moving on to subjects more worthy of our respective energy.
I think you might have sold me on Spyglass - Library/ Strip Mine/ The One Ring are enormous problematic. If I can proactively shutdown a walker/ problematic land, I would be super happy.
The problem is removal for planeswalkers are almost always 2 or 3 for 1 in your opponent's favor.
The problem is removal for planeswalkers are almost always 2 or 3 for 1 in your opponent's favor.
That's one of the nice features of Spyglass is that it prevents the initial impact effect from happening, so it doesn't feel like you're 2-for-1-ing yourself. Admittedly the opponent hasn't spent any mana on the stranded card, but as long as it stays stranded, the effect is still worth a card. Especially if it's a high-impact one.
Cheers,
rant
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It was a decent answer to planeswalkers when planeswalker removal was still really bad. Now there's just an abundance of cheap removal for everything to where this really isn't necessary, IMO. I cut Spyglass / Pithing Needle several years ago and have never looked back. They haven't aged well, and there's a lot more ways to pick them off anyways. Phyrexian Revoker is still decent though, especially in powered cubes where it can shut down mana rocks, but I also cut Revoker not too long ago to make space for other things.
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X/1 are VERY weak recently due to the number of ping effects.
The numbers have shifted a bit since this post, but the sentiment is still there. Cheap colorless answers to problematic permanents have continued to prove their worth over time.
Since the early days of these effects, planeswalkers have become cheaper and more powerful. Fetch/Strip chain combos have received more enablers. There are more ways to benefit from having passive artifacts in play. In my opinion, these effects seemed to have gained value over the years.
And Revoker's still a beast if you're powered, IMO.
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I'd argue the opposite. While what you said about planeswalkers is true, the increased threat diversity in everything else has made narrow answers like Spyglass / Needle more of a liability. The abundance of more efficient Hero's Downfall / Oblivion Ring / Vindincate type effects have been going up in value for me while Needle / Spyglass have only gone down (partly due to the increased number of removal spells that can also destroy artifacts).
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Needle has been a great target for Saga too.
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To me this logic held up when Sorcerous Spyglass was first printed in 2017. Being colorless is nice, but it hasn't been worth the narrowness for me in a long time for a lot of reasons:
- We're really in the golden age in terms of the evolution of removal (which I feel like is worth writing an entire article about). Up until recently I've had to devote a lot of multicolored slots towards every Vindiciate / Maelstrom Pulse / Assassin's Trophy under the sun. It was difficult to deal with multiple card types (especially planeswalkers) without devoting a lot of multicolored slots to removal because they were mainly printing them to be multicolored, not mono colored. Now we're at the point where there's so many good monn colored options that I've been comfortable cutting a good amount of the multicolored options.
- The combination of more mono colored removal options (and just more options in general) in conjunction with better mana fixing has made it very easy for a deck to splash for answers. Black can't deal with arifacts directly when they're on the board, but does it really need to when every other color can?
- Sorcerous Spyglass's killer feature was its ability to answer planeswlakers was HOT back in the day since removal options were sparse, and it was harder to overpower them with creatures. I feel like planeswalkers were the huge boogeymen for about a 10 year stretch. I feel like it's the opposite now where they're kind of the good guys playing fair Magic in the era of Ragavan / Atraxa / initiative / etc, which Spyglass effects are absolutely useless against.
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I feel the same way - I could see this being a bit more powerful if its able to proactively shut down fetchlands but yah.
Your mileage has obviously varied, but I think they're both very good still.
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I feel like this is less true these days since Oblivion Ring effects aren't as ubiquitous anymore.
This simply is not true, there's more answers than ever to destroying Crucible of Worlds / Ramunap Excavator, not to mention maindeckable graveyard hate to exile the Strip Mine.
Being able to hit manlands / Strip Mine / Library of Alexandria is great, but I still find it to be very narrow and low impact considering how many more things everything else hits. Something has to go terribly wrong in my draft if I have to main deck Sorcerous Spyglass in 2023.
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I'm not sure what this means or how it relates to the part of my post you were quoting...
Which is great, but they're not all built into the same card, and they don't answer everything or do everything that Needle/Glass effects can do. Your graveyard hate won't turn off 'walkers. Your shatter effect won't turn off manlands. Your creature removal won't counter Recurring Nightmare. Like, I get what you're trying to say, but it just doesn't hold water because you're using a bunch of different cards to try to accomplish what I can get from Spyglass, and it still doesn't do nearly everything that Spyglass does. Plus, none of those removal spells deal with Loam-based locks.
What do you mean by "everything else"? How many splashable removal spells do you have access to that deal with enchantments, artifacts, manlands, 'walkers, strip/fetch effects, etc.? I'm all for trying to maximize my flexible removal spells, but they all fall short in some way or another in comparison to each other. They gain some ground in some areas, and lose out in others. There aren't many splashable Vindicates floating around, and even if we had a bottomless number of those, it still wouldn't do everything these effects can do, and certainly not for 1 or 2 ...
I'm not saying YOU have to like the cards, or even play them. Someone else asked for their selling points, and I'm providing them. Clearly they're not for you.
..........
edit: After I typed all that out, I can't imagine this debate gaining much steam on either side. Let me know if you're cool calling it an "agree to disagree" position and moving on to subjects more worthy of our respective energy.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The problem is removal for planeswalkers are almost always 2 or 3 for 1 in your opponent's favor.
My cut is Sword of Feast and Famine - It really hasn't aged very well.
That's one of the nice features of Spyglass is that it prevents the initial impact effect from happening, so it doesn't feel like you're 2-for-1-ing yourself. Admittedly the opponent hasn't spent any mana on the stranded card, but as long as it stays stranded, the effect is still worth a card. Especially if it's a high-impact one.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!