What doe you mean? The card is excellent and I believe it deserves a slot in the Top 20. The decks where it shines are getting deeper and the shell is getting more and more valuable tools as time goes on. It's better now than it was last year at this same time.
I agree with both of you at the same time. Lands matter has gotten more support with Ramunap Excavator and Wrenn and Six, but it's still a decidedly 2nd tier archetype. It has some fun synergies that can produce value over time but ultimately lacks ways to apply board pressure/win. I can't spare slots for these cards when they don't put up results.
I haven't had much success with Loam in my cube or the cubes I've played. I can't help but agree with BlackWaltz3's opinion that Loam usually ends up in tier 2 strategies. In what decks does Loam shine in, and are these decks of comparable power level to the decks of other commonly played archetypes? Are the decks specifically built to abuse Loam? How many Loam interactions are you looking to include in your decks before Loam becomes a worthy inclusion?
I think a lot of people see Life from the Loam as only an archetype card, but that's just not true. If you needed to get the specific archetype cards, it wouldn't work in my 1600 card cube where you can't count on seeing those cards. Just like Crucible of Worlds, you don't need to jam the archetype to work the card. Over the course of the game, this thing draws you so many cards. Sure, they're all lands, but gee willikers.
It doesn't go in every deck, but it's great in the decks that want it. Decks that want it are any green deck that needs a card-advantage machine, any green deck that cares about the graveyard at all, and any green deck that is trying to have fun with lands. That's not every green deck, but it's a good cross-section. It's also splashable for what that's worth.
A big part of the card's utility is just the fact that dredge is bonkers. It's the perfect cheap, resilient engine to fuel the graveyard. And man is it resilient. Counter Life from the Loam? Why bother. Need to discard? Discard Loam. Or just discard lands if Loam is already in your graveyard, or even just in your deck. Graveyard hate is the only thing the works, and graveyard hate is underplayed.
My cube is weaker than most, but that doesn't seem to be a factor on this card. If others on this thread are to be believed, it's great in high-power lists, and I can attest that it's great in low power lists (without being too oppressive). My two cents as a non-traditional cube player.
But hey, if it's not working for you, don't play it. It's a gradual advantage machine, so if your cube is lightning fast, I could see it failing to get going. Drawing tons of lands doesn't win the game by itself after all. If it's not working, no need to force it.
It is a strong card in the right archetypes, but it is very narrow which keeps it out of my cube. I played it for a while but ultimately ended up cutting it due to low maindeck %. I’d rather just play something like Mirri’s Guile.
Over the years this card has been top 5 in difference between my personal experience and Cube forum ranking, meaning people here seem to love it, and yet every time it’s in my Cube it does absolutely nothing. Not only does it do nothing, my players derive joy from mocking me over my inclusion of this card. Now that it’s in the online Cube I still haven’t seen it played effectively…
That said, I always really want it to be good because it’s so cool, and I’ve played a lot of Loam strategies in competitive Legacy over the years which is a nice nostalgia bonus. There are also more and more printings that have in theory made Loam better recently.
1) When deckbuilding/drafting, does this ever get played in a deck without Strip Mine and/or Wasteland?
2) Re: play pattern, are people turbo-dredging in decks with deep graveyard themes or using it effectively as incidental value / card advantage toolbox card?
1) Yes, but it would need a deep pool of other good targets in order to make the cut without a lockout effect.
2) It can, but typically it'll see play in decks that have both good land targets and can use it to feed the 'yard.
And as long as they keep printing things like Urza's Saga, Boseiju, triomes, etc. it's only going to continue to get better and better.
Cool thanks for the feedback. I’m thinking about trying a Depths package alongside re-adding Loam but can’t find where that discussion was in the forum (I remember reading it and posting that I don’t like it some time ago). Seems like it only takes 6 or so slots to fully support, and I like that it adds a combo element to a midrange shell.
Something like this can be an example of tertiary use for Loam. Only has a few utility targets (manland, Boseiju, 2 fetches, & a horizon draw engine) but the added value as a repeatable spell for Pyromancer/Stitcher makes me think it would perform quite well:
It can also boost big late game land counts for Uro and Krasis if we make it to that stage of the game, as well as serving as a fuel engine for Uro and Forbid.
Something like this can be an example of tertiary use for Loam. Only has a few utility targets (manland, Boseiju, 2 fetches, & a horizon draw engine) but the added value as a repeatable spell for Pyromancer/Stitcher makes me think it would perform quite well:
It can also boost big late game land counts for Uro and Krasis if we make it to that stage of the game, as well as serving as a fuel engine for Uro and Forbid.
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
That deck looks sweet! Tons of subtle Loam synergies.
My biggest issue with Loam is how durdley it can be, especially if you don't have a Fastbond / Exploration effect to help speed up your board development. This problem has only exacerbated with Ragavan / Hexdrinker running around, not to mention more consistent ways to power out a super fattie like Archon of Cruelty with Unmarked Grave or something. Things like Wrenn and Six / Crucible of Worlds / Ramunap Excavator have kept their spots for me because you don't have to keep re-casting them.
That being said, I'm not sure if I've ever cubed Fastbond / Life from the Loam side by side (in my own list at least). With the second half of the triome cycle coming out in SNC, I might re-add Life from the Loam alongside testing it with Exploration to try and boost my lands sub-theme for my SNC update. I don't have high expectations for it since I still think it might be too durdley, but there is a lot of good Life from the Loam tech that's been printed since I've cut it like Uro / Urza's Saga / channel lands / etc. While Loam decks were never the most consistent, the most busted MTGO Vintage cube deck I've ever drafted was a Life from the Loam / Recurring Nightmare deck that was able to loop both Time Walk and Strip Mine.
I've found Life from the Loam and Exploration to both be excellent card advantage/ ramp options for decks that have land/ discard synergies but they are both too slow and inconsistent for legacy/ edh turbo land style decks.
I've played Exploration for a while and I've found that it is at its best though of as a Mox Diamond that can provide card disadvantage acceleration in land/ draw heavy decks than a backup Fastbond.
Here are two scenarios Explorations will be added to my cube:
1. Another strong 1 CMC green ramp is printed:
I've written extensively about how much I dislike 2 CMC green ramp spells and I've mentioned that that I feel the bar for 2 CMC ramp should be Rofellos/ Devoted Druid or refund mana - Three Visits/ Talisman.
I've felt that the green 1 cmc enchantment ramp, search for tomorrow/ Rift sower are stronger than 2 CMC ramp variants. I'm short of 2 green 1 CMC playables in order to completely remove green 2 CMC ramp for my cube. If there was another 1 CMC ramp printed, I would likely cut the 2 Three Visits variants and add Exploration + new playable and readjust the green curve to accommodate for consistently hitting 1 CMC dork on turn 1.
2. Another decent green storm/ untap lands enabler is printed: Fastbond, Heartbeat of Spring are great storm enablers, but they are the only green storm enablers. I feel that in order to consistently support blue-green untap storm, I need a density of 5 playables - Fastbond, Heartbeat of Spring, Dictate of Karametra - possibly Exploration and something else.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Been getting some more reps with re-adding Loam. In my experimental 540 list, I've added things like Mental Note / Thought Scour to help support both graveyard critical mass / spells matters, and Loam fits really well with that. Here's an Uro deck I played in last night's draft where Loam had a lot of synergies, Simic seems to be its best home with Uro / blue fueling the graveyard in general. Really wish I had a black dual land to splash for Takenuma, would've been nice to have that to recur with Loam also alongside Otawara.
Been getting some more reps with re-adding Loam. In my experimental 540 list, I've added things like Mental Note / Thought Scour to help support both graveyard critical mass / spells matters, and Loam fits really well with that. Here's an Uro deck I played in last night's draft where Loam had a lot of synergies, Simic seems to be its best home with Uro / blue fueling the graveyard in general. Really wish I had a black dual land to splash for Takenuma, would've been nice to have that to recur with Loam also alongside Otawara.
Not playing Exploration in that list hurts. Looks like the perfect deck for it with Augur, Loam, Twister and good 3-4 drops.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
EDIT: Added some questions.
450 Unpowered Cube Cobra
It doesn't go in every deck, but it's great in the decks that want it. Decks that want it are any green deck that needs a card-advantage machine, any green deck that cares about the graveyard at all, and any green deck that is trying to have fun with lands. That's not every green deck, but it's a good cross-section. It's also splashable for what that's worth.
A big part of the card's utility is just the fact that dredge is bonkers. It's the perfect cheap, resilient engine to fuel the graveyard. And man is it resilient. Counter Life from the Loam? Why bother. Need to discard? Discard Loam. Or just discard lands if Loam is already in your graveyard, or even just in your deck. Graveyard hate is the only thing the works, and graveyard hate is underplayed.
My cube is weaker than most, but that doesn't seem to be a factor on this card. If others on this thread are to be believed, it's great in high-power lists, and I can attest that it's great in low power lists (without being too oppressive). My two cents as a non-traditional cube player.
But hey, if it's not working for you, don't play it. It's a gradual advantage machine, so if your cube is lightning fast, I could see it failing to get going. Drawing tons of lands doesn't win the game by itself after all. If it's not working, no need to force it.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
That said, I always really want it to be good because it’s so cool, and I’ve played a lot of Loam strategies in competitive Legacy over the years which is a nice nostalgia bonus. There are also more and more printings that have in theory made Loam better recently.
1) When deckbuilding/drafting, does this ever get played in a deck without Strip Mine and/or Wasteland?
2) Re: play pattern, are people turbo-dredging in decks with deep graveyard themes or using it effectively as incidental value / card advantage toolbox card?
Thanks!
2) It can, but typically it'll see play in decks that have both good land targets and can use it to feed the 'yard.
And as long as they keep printing things like Urza's Saga, Boseiju, triomes, etc. it's only going to continue to get better and better.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Cool thanks for the feedback. I’m thinking about trying a Depths package alongside re-adding Loam but can’t find where that discussion was in the forum (I remember reading it and posting that I don’t like it some time ago). Seems like it only takes 6 or so slots to fully support, and I like that it adds a combo element to a midrange shell.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/deck/62237470b875b510034a180a
It can also boost big late game land counts for Uro and Krasis if we make it to that stage of the game, as well as serving as a fuel engine for Uro and Forbid.
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
That deck looks sweet! Tons of subtle Loam synergies.
Most of 'em are.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
That being said, I'm not sure if I've ever cubed Fastbond / Life from the Loam side by side (in my own list at least). With the second half of the triome cycle coming out in SNC, I might re-add Life from the Loam alongside testing it with Exploration to try and boost my lands sub-theme for my SNC update. I don't have high expectations for it since I still think it might be too durdley, but there is a lot of good Life from the Loam tech that's been printed since I've cut it like Uro / Urza's Saga / channel lands / etc. While Loam decks were never the most consistent, the most busted MTGO Vintage cube deck I've ever drafted was a Life from the Loam / Recurring Nightmare deck that was able to loop both Time Walk and Strip Mine.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I've played Exploration for a while and I've found that it is at its best though of as a Mox Diamond that can provide card disadvantage acceleration in land/ draw heavy decks than a backup Fastbond.
Here are two scenarios Explorations will be added to my cube:
1. Another strong 1 CMC green ramp is printed:
I've written extensively about how much I dislike 2 CMC green ramp spells and I've mentioned that that I feel the bar for 2 CMC ramp should be Rofellos/ Devoted Druid or refund mana - Three Visits/ Talisman.
I've felt that the green 1 cmc enchantment ramp, search for tomorrow/ Rift sower are stronger than 2 CMC ramp variants. I'm short of 2 green 1 CMC playables in order to completely remove green 2 CMC ramp for my cube. If there was another 1 CMC ramp printed, I would likely cut the 2 Three Visits variants and add Exploration + new playable and readjust the green curve to accommodate for consistently hitting 1 CMC dork on turn 1.
2. Another decent green storm/ untap lands enabler is printed:
Fastbond, Heartbeat of Spring are great storm enablers, but they are the only green storm enablers. I feel that in order to consistently support blue-green untap storm, I need a density of 5 playables - Fastbond, Heartbeat of Spring, Dictate of Karametra - possibly Exploration and something else.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Not playing Exploration in that list hurts. Looks like the perfect deck for it with Augur, Loam, Twister and good 3-4 drops.