One nice fact with Time Spiral (and other cards that exile themselves to make it harder to abuse them) is that with Arcane Savant you cast a copy, not the original card. This makes it possible to get the effect multiple times, if you can manage to bounce/recur Arcane Savant. Recurring Nightmare + Arcane Savant, which has Time Spiral exiled is quite the combo, if I understand it correctly!
Wrath of God is an amazing target for this, who here wouldn't play a 3UU wrath of God, except me because that is definitely not an effect I would put in blue
Arcane Savant went as an unplayed last pick in our 5 man draft today. I think at least one of the blue drafters was wrong to not pick it up (he had Upheaval). Maybe next time we can see it in action.
I feel like if I were in any sort of blue deck that typically comes together in my cube, I'd be happy to have Arcane Savant. Also, I don't think I'd be taking for the blue spells in my pool. I want to play those in my deck and have my Arcane Savant come in and do something my blue deck wouldn't normally be able to do.
After testing this guy is actually so insane that he's this close to coming out of my EDH cube. So far as I can tell he has two one-card infinite combos just in mono blue in my cube. More in dimir with a sac outlet. When he's not going infinite he's either locking out the entire table with something like Devastation Tide, or casting some big instant/sorcery repeatedly in Brago or with Eldrazi Displacer and warping the game. He totally warps games, and while these things might be fine in other cubes where it just means the game ends and you shuffle up for the next one, in my EDH cube we only usually play one or two games. He's crazy and fun, but he may actually just be too strong/game warping for my cube.
What experience have other people had with him since putting him in their cubes?
Arcane Savant went as an unplayed last pick in our 5 man draft today. I think at least one of the blue drafters was wrong to not pick it up (he had Upheaval). Maybe next time we can see it in action.
Holy hell that player was just wrong. At worst he's a cheaper upheaval, but when it comes to upheaval he actually just says that your opponent doesn't get to play magic. Hell, he could have something like Doom Blade or Threaten taped to him and he'd still be great.
He's been pretty ridiculous for us as well. I've seen him paired with Selvala's Stampede, Tooth and Nail, Armageddon, and Char, all to great effect. I wouldn't say he's broken but he's pretty close.
If you support the drafts-matters cards, this thing is a 360 staple, windmill-slam bomb. I'm glad I don't use those kinds of cards in my main cube, because I'm not a fan of the design.
I love these draft matters cards too (caller of the untamed & volatile chimera), but this is good constructive feedback to hear about. A recent cubetutor deck I assembled saw the chimera imprinted with ulamog, blightsteel colossus, and master of cruelties. I think the players in my group would be pissed if after 1.5 hours of drafting, someone got infect-headshot or annihilator 4'ed on turn 4!
I love these draft matters cards too (caller of the untamed & volatile chimera), but this is good constructive feedback to hear about. A recent cubetutor deck I assembled saw the chimera imprinted with ulamog, blightsteel colossus, and master of cruelties. I think the players in my group would be pissed if after 1.5 hours of drafting, someone got infect-headshot or annihilator 4'ed on turn 4!
Yeah, exactly it's why I think this is really a multiplayer cube (or even just EDH cube) problem and a nonissue for more competitive 1v1 cubes. (Though even there I'd be mindful)
I think caller is totally safe, and was sad I didn't get to see the Ghave deck find it the other day to make Goblin Sharpshooters forever, and Chimera is probably flimsy and unpredictable enough to be fine, but savant is really really dangerous and needs to be watched.
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Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
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What I just realized was Savant goes infinite with sublime epiphany.
Temporarily, my play group will errata the text on Arcane Savant (we're saying you cannot put Sublime Underneath) to prevent the Sublime - Arcane loop that essentially one side upheaval's the opponent's board + make an infinite number of tokens.
I like being able to do completely broken things, but I think Arcane might be a bit too high on the power level.
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Yeah, I think as soon as you get into Savant being able to do 1-card infinite loops or trivial 2-card loops (like if you run time warp or time walk as there's a ton of self-bounce) Savant is too good for an unpowered cube. I still run it, but it's best on its own in my cube with stuff like Upheaval and Baral's Expertise which, while annoying, do not immediately win the game on the spot.
Yeah, I think as soon as you get into Savant being able to do 1-card infinite loops or trivial 2-card loops (like if you run time warp or time walk as there's a ton of self-bounce) Savant is too good for an unpowered cube. I still run it, but it's best on its own in my cube with stuff like Upheaval and Baral's Expertise which, while annoying, do not immediately win the game on the spot.
I like the card - I'm actually okay with Arcane Savant + Nexus of Fate and he's flickered a few times. But one card loop that wins the game is too much for me.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
What I just realized was Savant goes infinite with sublime epiphany.
Temporarily, my play group will errata the text on Arcane Savant (we're saying you cannot put Sublime Underneath) to prevent the Sublime - Arcane loop that essentially one side upheaval's the opponent's board + make an infinite number of tokens.
I like being able to do completely broken things, but I think Arcane might be a bit too high on the power level.
You can also just make the opponent draw their entire deck
What I just realized was Savant goes infinite with sublime epiphany.
It might be enough of a disadvantage that you have to telegraph at the start of the game that you're doing it, but yeah it's pretty nasty. Sublime Epiphany might not be a forever cube card though since it costs 6.
I love these draft matters cards too (caller of the untamed & volatile chimera), but this is good constructive feedback to hear about. A recent cubetutor deck I assembled saw the chimera imprinted with ulamog, blightsteel colossus, and master of cruelties. I think the players in my group would be pissed if after 1.5 hours of drafting, someone got infect-headshot or annihilator 4'ed on turn 4!
Volatile is something I do not like my my cube - it sends the wrong draft signals when taken.
I don't have a problem with Caller of the Untamed - it works well with Blood Artists style effects and its usually drafted in the same archetypes as those decks regardless.
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I played Arcane Savant for 3 years now and I'm planning to cut him. The problem is he's either completely broken (Arcane + Sublime Epiphany as a 1-card instant win combo) or an expensive Flametongue Kavu.
I feel that Clocknapper fills his role as a Flicker/ ETB/ Twin enabler in a more fair and reasonable manner, without the possibility of people creating loops/ unfair plays i.e. Ultimatums.
I haven't had good feedback from him in the past few drafts. Does anyone want to share their thoughts?
I played Arcane Savant for 3 years now and I'm planning to cut him. The problem is he's either completely broken (Arcane + Sublime Epiphany as a 1-card instant win combo) or an expensive Flametongue Kavu.
I feel that Clocknapper fills his role as a Flicker/ ETB/ Twin enabler in a more fair and reasonable manner, without the possibility of people creating loops/ unfair plays i.e. Ultimatums.
I haven't had good feedback from him in the past few drafts. Does anyone want to share their thoughts?
No offense but I think you are off about clocknapper. When I tested it, it was broken through the teeth. I tested for 4-6 months (we were cubing 6-8 cubes a week then) we were debating if it was equivalent to power. Only time vault and clocknapper has my playgroup nearly unanimously wanted it cut. It had many unfun play patterns. Average power level has risen a lot since then, but I doubt not enough to make this a fair magic card.
Arcane is a pet card of our playgroup and is one of the key enablers of my blink archetypes.
The key to making it fun was putting a few sorceries in the cube that are very strong with arcane savant, have uses in other decks and ommiting the most broken interactions (ultimatums, sublime epiphany, summon the pack).
Some examples: Time warp, Invoke despair, Emeria's call, Turntimber symbiosis, Tooth and nail
These take 2 picks and put the card in the "fair broken" territory
I played Arcane Savant for 3 years now and I'm planning to cut him. The problem is he's either completely broken (Arcane + Sublime Epiphany as a 1-card instant win combo) or an expensive Flametongue Kavu.
I feel that Clocknapper fills his role as a Flicker/ ETB/ Twin enabler in a more fair and reasonable manner, without the possibility of people creating loops/ unfair plays i.e. Ultimatums.
I haven't had good feedback from him in the past few drafts. Does anyone want to share their thoughts?
No offense but I think you are off about clocknapper. When I tested it, it was broken through the teeth. I tested for 4-6 months (we were cubing 6-8 cubes a week then) we were debating if it was equivalent to power. Only time vault and clocknapper has my playgroup nearly unanimously wanted it cut. It had many unfun play patterns. Average power level has risen a lot since then, but I doubt not enough to make this a fair magic card.
Arcane is a pet card of our playgroup and is one of the key enablers of my blink archetypes.
The key to making it fun was putting a few sorceries in the cube that are very strong with arcane savant, have uses in other decks and ommiting the most broken interactions (ultimatums, sublime epiphany, summon the pack).
Some examples: Time warp, Invoke despair, Emeria's call, Turntimber symbiosis, Tooth and nail
These take 2 picks and put the card in the "fair broken" territory
What I mean by fair and unfair is that I would be okay with someone having Clocknapper + Kiki Jiki/ Recurring Nightmare or Time Vualt + Tezzeret the Seeker. You could make the case this is a bit too powerful, but I feel its still within reason.
However, my problem with Arcane Savant is if he puts something like Dance with Calamity or even Sublime Epiphany underneath. It makes no sense that someone could cast a 5 CMC spell and essentially storm through their entire deck or just instant win.
The reason I've been thinking about Arcane Savant is that Dance with Calamity is a card I had on my mind for a while to help boost storm, but I feel in order for me to add that, I would need to cut Savant. (Hence my concern with fairness).
Yeah, arcane savant constricting what sorceries you add is a big downside , true point.
Clock napper is not as powerful as the absolute most broken arcane savant “combos”.
It’s not so much going infinite with clock napper that I thought was broken, it’s more how nuts a time walk + draw a card is on a card that can be blinked. Time walk lends itself to more blinking.
Our best player ranked it higher than black lotus at the time
Yeah, arcane savant constricting what sorceries you add is a big downside , true point.
Clock napper is still worse than the absolute most broken arcane savant “combos”.
It’s not so much going infinite with clock napper that I thought was broken, it’s more how nuts a time walk + draw a card is on a card that can be blinked. Time walk lends itself to more blinking.
Our best player ranked it higher than black lotus at the time
My experience is that Clocknapper is strong but it isn't THAT strong.
Yeah, arcane savant constricting what sorceries you add is a big downside , true point.
Clock napper is still worse than the absolute most broken arcane savant “combos”.
It’s not so much going infinite with clock napper that I thought was broken, it’s more how nuts a time walk + draw a card is on a card that can be blinked. Time walk lends itself to more blinking.
Our best player ranked it higher than black lotus at the time
My experience is that Clocknapper is strong but it isn't THAT strong.
I don't think its THAT strong either but its definitely the type of card you put in where intent is to abuse it
I feel like a decent part of Arcane Savant's appeal was giving things like Wildfire / Upheaval a discount. I cut those a while ago since they haven't aged very well in the era of initiative / Minsc & Boo.
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What experience have other people had with him since putting him in their cubes?
Holy hell that player was just wrong. At worst he's a cheaper upheaval, but when it comes to upheaval he actually just says that your opponent doesn't get to play magic. Hell, he could have something like Doom Blade or Threaten taped to him and he'd still be great.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
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Yeah, exactly it's why I think this is really a multiplayer cube (or even just EDH cube) problem and a nonissue for more competitive 1v1 cubes. (Though even there I'd be mindful)
I think caller is totally safe, and was sad I didn't get to see the Ghave deck find it the other day to make Goblin Sharpshooters forever, and Chimera is probably flimsy and unpredictable enough to be fine, but savant is really really dangerous and needs to be watched.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Player A: Turn 1 Eureka
Player B: Land
Player A: Land
Player B: Nothing
Player A: Arcane Savant casting Armageddon
Player A: Craterhoof Behemoth
It was a pretty sweet deck and a pretty sweet play.
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What I just realized was Savant goes infinite with sublime epiphany.
Temporarily, my play group will errata the text on Arcane Savant (we're saying you cannot put Sublime Underneath) to prevent the Sublime - Arcane loop that essentially one side upheaval's the opponent's board + make an infinite number of tokens.
I like being able to do completely broken things, but I think Arcane might be a bit too high on the power level.
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Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
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I like the card - I'm actually okay with Arcane Savant + Nexus of Fate and he's flickered a few times. But one card loop that wins the game is too much for me.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
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You can also just make the opponent draw their entire deck
It might be enough of a disadvantage that you have to telegraph at the start of the game that you're doing it, but yeah it's pretty nasty. Sublime Epiphany might not be a forever cube card though since it costs 6.
Volatile is something I do not like my my cube - it sends the wrong draft signals when taken.
I don't have a problem with Caller of the Untamed - it works well with Blood Artists style effects and its usually drafted in the same archetypes as those decks regardless.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I feel that Clocknapper fills his role as a Flicker/ ETB/ Twin enabler in a more fair and reasonable manner, without the possibility of people creating loops/ unfair plays i.e. Ultimatums.
I haven't had good feedback from him in the past few drafts. Does anyone want to share their thoughts?
No offense but I think you are off about clocknapper. When I tested it, it was broken through the teeth. I tested for 4-6 months (we were cubing 6-8 cubes a week then) we were debating if it was equivalent to power. Only time vault and clocknapper has my playgroup nearly unanimously wanted it cut. It had many unfun play patterns. Average power level has risen a lot since then, but I doubt not enough to make this a fair magic card.
Arcane is a pet card of our playgroup and is one of the key enablers of my blink archetypes.
The key to making it fun was putting a few sorceries in the cube that are very strong with arcane savant, have uses in other decks and ommiting the most broken interactions (ultimatums, sublime epiphany, summon the pack).
Some examples: Time warp, Invoke despair, Emeria's call, Turntimber symbiosis, Tooth and nail
These take 2 picks and put the card in the "fair broken" territory
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What I mean by fair and unfair is that I would be okay with someone having Clocknapper + Kiki Jiki/ Recurring Nightmare or Time Vualt + Tezzeret the Seeker. You could make the case this is a bit too powerful, but I feel its still within reason.
However, my problem with Arcane Savant is if he puts something like Dance with Calamity or even Sublime Epiphany underneath. It makes no sense that someone could cast a 5 CMC spell and essentially storm through their entire deck or just instant win.
The reason I've been thinking about Arcane Savant is that Dance with Calamity is a card I had on my mind for a while to help boost storm, but I feel in order for me to add that, I would need to cut Savant. (Hence my concern with fairness).
Clock napper is not as powerful as the absolute most broken arcane savant “combos”.
It’s not so much going infinite with clock napper that I thought was broken, it’s more how nuts a time walk + draw a card is on a card that can be blinked. Time walk lends itself to more blinking.
Our best player ranked it higher than black lotus at the time
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My experience is that Clocknapper is strong but it isn't THAT strong.
I don't think its THAT strong either but its definitely the type of card you put in where intent is to abuse it
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