Also worth mentioning: this being mono green allows you to alleviate Lotleh Troll in the Golgari section.
I might cut Troll, but I'm hesitant. I think trample, permanent stat boosts and regeneration will be relevant. Troll can keep beating down even if the opponent removes all the reanimated creatures, whereas Mongrel/Constrictor will just kind of stand there. Even though the troll has restrictions in what you can discard, there's an element of uncertainty in blocking it unless the defending player has perfect info on your hand. I think the ceiling for an unanswered Lotleth Troll is much higher than for either of the mono green options. Am I missing something here?
Also worth mentioning: this being mono green allows you to alleviate Lotleh Troll in the Golgari section.
I might cut Troll, but I'm hesitant. I think trample, permanent stat boosts and regeneration will be relevant. Troll can keep beating down even if the opponent removes all the reanimated creatures, whereas Mongrel/Constrictor will just kind of stand there. Even though the troll has restrictions in what you can discard, there's an element of uncertainty in blocking it unless the defending player has perfect info on your hand. I think the ceiling for an unanswered Lotleth Troll is much higher than for either of the mono green options. Am I missing something here?
There are a lot of golgari cards you could run and by adding what is generally a similar effect in a coordinating mono-color you can get away with running a different flavor of card in your guild section.
Also worth mentioning: this being mono green allows you to alleviate Lotleh Troll in the Golgari section.
I might cut Troll, but I'm hesitant. I think trample, permanent stat boosts and regeneration will be relevant. Troll can keep beating down even if the opponent removes all the reanimated creatures, whereas Mongrel/Constrictor will just kind of stand there. Even though the troll has restrictions in what you can discard, there's an element of uncertainty in blocking it unless the defending player has perfect info on your hand. I think the ceiling for an unanswered Lotleth Troll is much higher than for either of the mono green options. Am I missing something here?
All relevant points, but at the end of the day for me, the primary function of all these cards are to be discard outlets. Black has Heir of Falkenrath / Oona's Prowler and now green has Wild Mongrel #2.
Right now my Golgari section is this:
- Pernicious Deed
- Maelstrom Pulse
- Life // Death
- Lotleth Troll
As you can see, I'm a big reanimation junkie. That being said, I'd rather cut Troll over Life // Death in this scenario since I've reached a critical mass on discard outlets. I would also like to make room to play Abrupt Decay again.
I'm also on the "run both" side because the card looks good enough on its own to worth a spot in non-reanimator decks. Reach seems like decent remplacement to Wild Mongrel's ability, but I really don't know which I like most. Speaking flavor, Wild Mongrel is a bad ass, but there's some serious chance this new snake could be better on the field. Though I had to admit, the nombo with Ophiomancer is sad.
I think cubes shoulf either run both or neither. Since having redundant effects on lower manna creatures helps make archetypes playable. Not running both is like running only 1 manna dork. Ramp needs multiple dorks for consistancy and reanimate needs multiple discard outlets.
Plus this guy and help green aggro if you are trying to make that work.
People allways speak highly of mongrel but I could never get behind it. Reach is a lot more useful than the colour change in my eyes so this may just be enough to get him in.
People allways speak highly of mongrel but I could never get behind it. Reach is a lot more useful than the colour change in my eyes so this may just be enough to get him in.
Mongrel's just a solid role player as a discard outlet / Natural Order fodder and can randomly alpha strike for the win. Outside of going off with a draw 7, he's nothing flashy.
I think card quality has pushed mongrel out of playable status. Imo mongrel or snake dog would need to have hexproof/shroud of indestructible in order be willing to discard enough cards to it to make it worth not just discarding reanimated targets. Of course, this is from someone who does not support green aggro. If you support green aggro mongrel and snake dog definitely go up in value.
Big card for Green Aggro if you support the archetype, we are approaching the critical mass of cards to properly support it at a powered level. (In my opinion) but still not quite there.
The great thing about the Mongrels is that the threat of activation is what makes them so worthwhile. People don't want to attack into them of block them with creatures that would otherwise trade with them because they can activate. Most of the time, you never have to actually pitch a card to Mongrel to have its ability be worth a lot when it's on the battlefield. The reach will make that aspect of the card even better, as it can hold off small flying critters pretty effectively. Looking forward to playing this card!
All relevant points, but at the end of the day for me, the primary function of all these cards are to be discard outlets. Black has Heir of Falkenrath / Oona's Prowler and now green has Wild Mongrel #2.
Good point - I have yet to make my SOI update, but by the time I have Heir of Falkenrath and possibly the 3/3 skulk guy, in addition to Oona's Prowler that makes three aggressive discard outlets in black. With Mongrel #2, I guess the BG aggro-reanimator works just fine without Troll.
(OT, but being a reanimation junkie myself: how often do people actually cast Life from Life // Death?)
Holds back 2/1, 2/2, 2/3s flyers very well without actually having to pitch any cards, so I think I prefer slightly to mongrel. That said, if Kessig Prowler gets us to push green aggro we might add both in.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
All relevant points, but at the end of the day for me, the primary function of all these cards are to be discard outlets. Black has Heir of Falkenrath / Oona's Prowler and now green has Wild Mongrel #2.
Good point - I have yet to make my SOI update, but by the time I have Heir of Falkenrath and possibly the 3/3 skulk guy, in addition to Oona's Prowler that makes three aggressive discard outlets in black. With Mongrel #2, I guess the BG aggro-reanimator works just fine without Troll.
(OT, but being a reanimation junkie myself: how often do people actually cast Life from Life // Death?)
Not very often, but it's not unusual to have Life // Death in the same deck as Elesh Norn.
Slight improvement over Wild Mongrel, but I've cut that years ago and that's not better by enough to retry it. These are archetype enablers, so playing both or none is probably correct. Worth to keep in mind for when you might want to support reanimator in green more heavily.
Cool, I think we're really at the point now, where we have enough great discard outlets that we don't need to run them all. Not sure if we will play both, but I'd be sad to swap the beloved Mongrel for this ugly Constrictor.
The problem I've found why Noose Constrictor and Wild Mongrel aren't seeing enough play is often the best thing you can do at 2 CMC for green is ramp/ 2 CMC mana dork.
I think we really need move away from the 2 CMC mana dorks and this could be accomplished in two ways:
2. Add Unga Bunga/ Melira Combo to remove green from entirely focused on hyper ramp. The problem I found with a color focused on a single thing is that it limits cube diversity and the first 15 ramp spells are good, but it really drops off in quality if your cube is big.
So far I found this minor shift has made Wild Mongrel more playable as a serviceable 2 drop and I look forward to playing him more.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
In the last few weeks you've been advocating the removal of 2 CMC ramp dorks and I pointed out the "special" 2 CMC dorks I like to keep because of their increased value.
The dealbreaker for me regarding that will be what opportunity cost I get from freeing up my 2 CMC slot in green and I think you are making a good case for it. Since these days I'm far away from my cube due to having changed country, I didn't use brainpower to fully theorycraft what I'm going to do with 2 CMC green, but I think I would want it to be something that enables an interesting new archetype. I realised that the Colorpair lacking identity the most in my Cube is Gruul, since noone really plays Gruul, but either Jund or Temur. Gruul Aggro/Midrange is intriguing, and I think I will try to cater for this in my Green creature section this winter when I'm back home.
So I done some theory crafting around aristocrats/ melira/ flicker/ green midrange in general and I feel we need a strong theory not just card selection.
* I'm going to talk about 3-4 CMC first, then I'll jump back to Noose Constrictor
My motivation for writing up my match up analysis is the printing of the card - Grist, the Hunger Tide.
This card may look innocuous, but it has drastically shifted the way Modern/ Legacy - Collected Company / Green Sun's Zenith decks in that it gave the deck mainboard removal to the opponent's threats that could be tutored into play and advance your own gameplan.
- You could see a drastic shift in Legacy Elves game plan as it resolves more around cards like Allosaurus Shepherd, Elvish Reclaimer and could play a much longer game rather than focused on all-in combos.
- Similarly, this is also becoming the case in Modern Company decks as its card draw from Dushwatch Recruiter/ Yawgmoth are focused on long term advantage, rather than assembling the combo as quickly as possible.
- This played a similar role to Oko, Thief of Crowns in my legacy affinity deck - It supported by main artifact plan, but provided disruption and resilience in the late against grindy decks.
I feel we have enough redundancy with cards like Grist - Ob Nixilis Reignited is no Grist, but the role he fills is too important IMO. The dual threat of a midrange deck / linear deck made these decks much stronger and added a lot of back and forth play.
This goes back to my thoughts on 2 CMC creatures - This is traditionally filled with a card like Tarmogoyf / Scavenging Ooze / Voice of Resurgence / Duskwatch Recruiter / Outland Liberator that could provide pressure, disrupt the opponent's game plan (Tax, Gravehate, Block aggro etc.), or advance your own game plan (Duskwatch Recruiter/ Voice etc.)
There are cases where Tarmogoyf is "unplayable" in a format - that's usually:
1) The removal is too good in the form of Fatal Push
2) The disruption is not sufficient and decks like Show and Tell/ Hogaak/ Storm are too powerful - How could a 2 mana 4/5 compete against a free 8/8 trample?
I feel #1 is almost never the case for cube - which prompts the second situation.
We often don't have enough of the traditional redundancy with cards like Daze, Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt etc. against combo decks but if you think about it - most of the combos in Vintage Cubes are creature based with Reanimator, Fatty Cheat, Creature Combos, Artifact Ramp etc.
Back to my previous point, I feel if people are saying 2 CMC mana dork is the best thing they can do on turn 2, then I feel the problem is with the lack interaction in the format and we should be re-evaluating other 3-5 CMC planeswalkers to fill the Grist role (Ob Nixilis/ Liliana the Last Hope both come to mind).
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I might cut Troll, but I'm hesitant. I think trample, permanent stat boosts and regeneration will be relevant. Troll can keep beating down even if the opponent removes all the reanimated creatures, whereas Mongrel/Constrictor will just kind of stand there. Even though the troll has restrictions in what you can discard, there's an element of uncertainty in blocking it unless the defending player has perfect info on your hand. I think the ceiling for an unanswered Lotleth Troll is much higher than for either of the mono green options. Am I missing something here?
There are a lot of golgari cards you could run and by adding what is generally a similar effect in a coordinating mono-color you can get away with running a different flavor of card in your guild section.
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All relevant points, but at the end of the day for me, the primary function of all these cards are to be discard outlets. Black has Heir of Falkenrath / Oona's Prowler and now green has Wild Mongrel #2.
Right now my Golgari section is this:
- Pernicious Deed
- Maelstrom Pulse
- Life // Death
- Lotleth Troll
As you can see, I'm a big reanimation junkie. That being said, I'd rather cut Troll over Life // Death in this scenario since I've reached a critical mass on discard outlets. I would also like to make room to play Abrupt Decay again.
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Plus this guy and help green aggro if you are trying to make that work.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
Once the list tightens up I might need to choose between them.
Mongrel's just a solid role player as a discard outlet / Natural Order fodder and can randomly alpha strike for the win. Outside of going off with a draw 7, he's nothing flashy.
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Color-shifting is relevant (protections, swords, terror effects, etc) on Mongrel ...but reach is a cool added ability two. Will happily play both.
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Good point - I have yet to make my SOI update, but by the time I have Heir of Falkenrath and possibly the 3/3 skulk guy, in addition to Oona's Prowler that makes three aggressive discard outlets in black. With Mongrel #2, I guess the BG aggro-reanimator works just fine without Troll.
(OT, but being a reanimation junkie myself: how often do people actually cast Life from Life // Death?)
Somehow I completely forgot about swords. Good point.
Yeah, I think you've convinced me to play both.
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Not very often, but it's not unusual to have Life // Death in the same deck as Elesh Norn.
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I think we really need move away from the 2 CMC mana dorks and this could be accomplished in two ways:
1. Play cards like Rift Sower, Search for Tomorrow, Deathrite Shaman, Orcish Lumberjack in addition to the regular 1 drop mana dorks.
2. Add Unga Bunga/ Melira Combo to remove green from entirely focused on hyper ramp. The problem I found with a color focused on a single thing is that it limits cube diversity and the first 15 ramp spells are good, but it really drops off in quality if your cube is big.
So far I found this minor shift has made Wild Mongrel more playable as a serviceable 2 drop and I look forward to playing him more.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
The dealbreaker for me regarding that will be what opportunity cost I get from freeing up my 2 CMC slot in green and I think you are making a good case for it. Since these days I'm far away from my cube due to having changed country, I didn't use brainpower to fully theorycraft what I'm going to do with 2 CMC green, but I think I would want it to be something that enables an interesting new archetype. I realised that the Colorpair lacking identity the most in my Cube is Gruul, since noone really plays Gruul, but either Jund or Temur. Gruul Aggro/Midrange is intriguing, and I think I will try to cater for this in my Green creature section this winter when I'm back home.
* I'm going to talk about 3-4 CMC first, then I'll jump back to Noose Constrictor
My motivation for writing up my match up analysis is the printing of the card - Grist, the Hunger Tide.
This card may look innocuous, but it has drastically shifted the way Modern/ Legacy - Collected Company / Green Sun's Zenith decks in that it gave the deck mainboard removal to the opponent's threats that could be tutored into play and advance your own gameplan.
- You could see a drastic shift in Legacy Elves game plan as it resolves more around cards like Allosaurus Shepherd, Elvish Reclaimer and could play a much longer game rather than focused on all-in combos.
- Similarly, this is also becoming the case in Modern Company decks as its card draw from Dushwatch Recruiter/ Yawgmoth are focused on long term advantage, rather than assembling the combo as quickly as possible.
- This played a similar role to Oko, Thief of Crowns in my legacy affinity deck - It supported by main artifact plan, but provided disruption and resilience in the late against grindy decks.
I feel we have enough redundancy with cards like Grist - Ob Nixilis Reignited is no Grist, but the role he fills is too important IMO. The dual threat of a midrange deck / linear deck made these decks much stronger and added a lot of back and forth play.
This goes back to my thoughts on 2 CMC creatures - This is traditionally filled with a card like Tarmogoyf / Scavenging Ooze / Voice of Resurgence / Duskwatch Recruiter / Outland Liberator that could provide pressure, disrupt the opponent's game plan (Tax, Gravehate, Block aggro etc.), or advance your own game plan (Duskwatch Recruiter/ Voice etc.)
There are cases where Tarmogoyf is "unplayable" in a format - that's usually:
1) The removal is too good in the form of Fatal Push
2) The disruption is not sufficient and decks like Show and Tell/ Hogaak/ Storm are too powerful - How could a 2 mana 4/5 compete against a free 8/8 trample?
I feel #1 is almost never the case for cube - which prompts the second situation.
We often don't have enough of the traditional redundancy with cards like Daze, Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt etc. against combo decks but if you think about it - most of the combos in Vintage Cubes are creature based with Reanimator, Fatty Cheat, Creature Combos, Artifact Ramp etc.
Back to my previous point, I feel if people are saying 2 CMC mana dork is the best thing they can do on turn 2, then I feel the problem is with the lack interaction in the format and we should be re-evaluating other 3-5 CMC planeswalkers to fill the Grist role (Ob Nixilis/ Liliana the Last Hope both come to mind).
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i