I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.
Being weak against removal is something I will never holds a 3 drop to, ever.
I've heard people saying this multiple times in this forum and it's 1000% incorrect.
Losing tempo efficiency to removal (while generating no value) is absolutely something that devalues a card. In a format of bolts, shocks, path to exile, doom blades, multiple wrath of gods 3 mana creatures that generate no value to sorcery speed removal need to be excellent to be playable.
How well creatures align with the removal of the format is one of the central attributes in magic that determines a creatures value. In a powered cube too.... I was too high on Drana, underestimating this concept. I will never make that mistake again.
I agree with your first point but not your second.
Losing a three drop to a 1 or 2 mana spell is absolutely a tempo killer, and if it's not something that left you with some juice (say, they bolt your Golem but you still have a blade splicer) than losing a three mana spell to a one mana spell is still a thing. Like, if I tap our for Brimaz and they Path or Swords it and they're able to (potentially) have another spell open, that's not a good feeling.
However, Drana has been a boss. Unlike a lot of the other 3 drops, Drana pretty much gives your opponent one turn to answer her with burn since she gets out of control so quickly. I put a lot more stock into 3 drops that bolster themselves pretty much immediately, since forcing your opponent to have the answer now vs 2-3 turns from now is a real issue for some decks to overcome. Sure, they sometimes answer it in that turn, but when you force your opponents to do things in the immediate future and not turns later, then dying to removal is less of a problem since they move out of there. Plus Drana is so insane in combat with a bunch of other creatures. Frankly I don't see how anyone can be down on Drana, but ymmv as always.
Dying to removal is an important thing to consider. But the impact it has on the overall quality of a creature certainly scales with the converted mana cost. A 3-drop that dies to removal without guaranteeing some kind of value is significantly more tolerable than something that costs 5 or 6 mana. And the tempo setback of having a 3-drop killed by Go For the Throat is infinitely easier to recover from than when the same thing happens to a 5+ mana investment. So it's not that the removal test is irrelevant, it's simply that the significance is scaled way back. Additionally, since so much of the removal in the cube is in the 2-3 mana range, it's just not all that critical for a 3cc creature to pass the removal test. Important to consider, but not enough so that I'd call it a strike against its cubability.
What you don't want to do is compound a vulnerability to removal with a weakness in combat. Luckily in this case, her combat strengths are pretty high (made even more so by her particular brand of disruption) ...so her "dies to removal" clause is pretty easy to live with.
I think Mirror Entity will be my cut, but... that's a tough cut. Can't add any more three drops though!
Mirror Entity would be my cut. If I can go 1 drop 2 drop 3 drop spend turn 4 mana on a attacking, I am probably winning that game as an aggressive deck. So that or flickerwisp would ( But blink decks have been scaled back in my cube, the displacer can still do broken things and create locks)
As to you other point, I do think people need to take potential 3 drop for cube in the context of the other great cube 3 drops. Many of those will give you value in the face of removal. Flickerwisp, Mentor, Splicer, and Spiritkeeper almost always give me value even when killed. So you raise a fine point. No it is not a deal breaker like for 6 drops, but we are getting to the point where many of our 3 drops are not tempo losers to removal so we should be asking that question. Brimaz sets a nice bar, partially because it can't be bolted.
But this is why crusader should be considered a top pick. It is explosive and it blanks a big portion of removal. I have lost my taste for protection but that may change. It was jsut the last one left in my cube so it's gone.
I don't find Mirran Crusader's protection to be that great, actually. Not being able to be blocked by 2-colors is really nice, but Black still has plenty of ways to deal with protection with edicts and sweepers, and green isn't exactly a removal heavy color. Better than nothing, but protection from red and blue is much more valuable IMO because pretty much everything targets or is damage based.
I used to love Mirran Crusader on paper, but in practice he has always been "meh" for me. He trades with 2/3s and bigger, his protection colors could've been better, he's underwhelming without boosting his stats, and he's not very splashable.
A brand new splashable and efficient white 3-drop. Intesresting. Seems good in Midrange and great in Aggro. Poor in Control though.
I also on the same boat as wtwlf and Edward about the "Die to removal" thing. In traditionnal powered cube environment, 3-drops and less doesn't really need to pass the Vindicate test if they can bring some sort of value in a different way. And this one does. As a 3 power frist striker, added to the disruption effect, I think Thalia 2.0 is fine. I wouldn't fault anyone for running this instead of Mirran Crusader, Mirror Entity or Soltari Champion (or even Exalted Angel for those who sort it as a 3-drop).
In counterpart, I think Blade Splicer, Flickerwisp, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Brimaz and Monastery Mentor are all better suit for cube. The first three bring sure value to the table at ETB or LTB and the last two have an immense ceiling potential.
About the art, it doesn't seem to bad. But I'm also open for a better original None-Promo art. Maybe some sort of un-zoom version of it.
FWIW, I said Drana I was "too high" on Drana . Then two people disagreed with me without any reference to how high I was on her.
I think drana is still a great creature , but not a premium 3 drop like brimaz, ophiomancer, flesh carver, rabble master which is what I initially thought.
people please pay more attention to the language used. I said Drana I was "too high" on Drana . Then two people disagreed with me without any reference to how high I was on her.
I think drana is still a great creature , but not a premium 3 drop like brimaz, ophiomancer, flesh carver, rabble master which is what I initially thought.
In fairness, you didn't say 'how high' that initially was in that post, so without giving a bit more context, it's a bit much to expect folks to go and read all the other posts you originally made about Drana and hence possess a reference for your prior and current 'height'
Otherwise, I agree. It's not quite as good as Ophio, Flesh Carver and Brimaz, but they are just A* creatures. Drana is still easily good enough for most cubes I can imagine.
people please pay more attention to the language used. I said Drana I was "too high" on Drana . Then two people disagreed with me without any reference to how high I was on her.
I think drana is still a great creature , but not a premium 3 drop like brimaz, ophiomancer, flesh carver, rabble master which is what I initially thought.
In fairness, you didn't say 'how high' that initially was in that post, so without giving a bit more context, it's a bit much to expect folks to go and read all the other posts you originally made about Drana and hence possess a reference for your prior and current 'height'
Otherwise, I agree. It's not quite as good as Ophio, Flesh Carver and Brimaz, but they are just A* creatures. Drana is still easily good enough for most cubes I can imagine.
That's fair, my initial statement doesn't mean much without being explicit about how high I initially was. Makes it easy to misinterpret.
Notice a trend of misinterpretation and that was the specific issue I decided to explain heh.
the main point I was trying to make is that I underestimated the consequences of being vulnerable to removal. Watching drana in action really hit that home for me.
This seems sweet, my group has wanted some nonbasic hate and this is that and much more. I will cut Soltari Champion for it. No morr shadow in my cube after that.
Like Thalia 1.0, both arts are pretty good so it's always nice to have options. I'd like the promo art MUCH MORE if it weren't for that vile watermark. The only thing worse than one cupcake with tentacles is having another one in giant form.
Like Thalia 1.0, both arts are pretty good so it's always nice to have options. I'd like the promo art MUCH MORE if it weren't for that vile watermark. The only thing worse than one cupcake with tentacles is having another one in giant form.
Everyone seems grumpy about the waterwark, but I like it because it actually represents the set unlike so many nonsensical ones.
Yes, but is it more insane than the other eight white 3 drops? It's a really stacked slot, and there's nothing I want to cut for her for the time being.
Yes, but is it more insane than the other eight white 3 drops? It's a really stacked slot, and there's nothing I want to cut for her for the time being.
I'd replace Fiend Hunter or Silverblade Paladin with New Thalia without even blinking.
Can I ask why people are so down on Mirran crusader? Seems that it's still quite a strong card and that it pairs well with the myriad of mass pump continually being added to support token strategies. Also, blanking one of the main removal colors is a nice addition. Is it people just dislike protection in general?
Can I ask why people are so down on Mirran crusader? Seems that it's still quite a strong card and that it pairs well with the myriad of mass pump continually being added to support token strategies. Also, blanking one of the main removal colors is a nice addition. Is it people just dislike protection in general?
I think it's just a guy. It doesn't support a particular strategy, disrupt a particular strategy or shine in matchups that are otherwise unfavorable for the kinds of decks he goes in. It's just kinda an effective beater. White's 3cc suite is full of creatures that are both effective beaters AND have one of the other qualities I listed above.
I think Crusader is one of the cards that when I started cubing (Last Innistrad) until now has fallen the most. R/W Aggro equip was the best deck in my cube and double strikers were nutz there. My cube has gotten more powerful, but at the same time wizards has given a lot more to creatures low on the curve. I find I actually have very little room for dudes that beat down, and white 3s already do that in Brimaz. I would never fault anyone for still running it and I pop it in sometimes still. But anymore I am looking for things that give more value if killed, can reinforce a strategy, disrupt the opponent, or are unique.
The new Thalia give me the disruption I am looking for and still does a very handsome job holding a sword.
For me, yes, this is it primarily. I just don't like a guy that's a 2/2 doublestriker in some matches and an instant ragequit in others. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but there's just something uniquely frustrating about your opponent having a card that specifically hates on the particular colors you happened to draft. It's just arbitrary and feel-baddy. I go back and forth on the swords for that very reason. /2cents
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I agree with your first point but not your second.
Losing a three drop to a 1 or 2 mana spell is absolutely a tempo killer, and if it's not something that left you with some juice (say, they bolt your Golem but you still have a blade splicer) than losing a three mana spell to a one mana spell is still a thing. Like, if I tap our for Brimaz and they Path or Swords it and they're able to (potentially) have another spell open, that's not a good feeling.
However, Drana has been a boss. Unlike a lot of the other 3 drops, Drana pretty much gives your opponent one turn to answer her with burn since she gets out of control so quickly. I put a lot more stock into 3 drops that bolster themselves pretty much immediately, since forcing your opponent to have the answer now vs 2-3 turns from now is a real issue for some decks to overcome. Sure, they sometimes answer it in that turn, but when you force your opponents to do things in the immediate future and not turns later, then dying to removal is less of a problem since they move out of there. Plus Drana is so insane in combat with a bunch of other creatures. Frankly I don't see how anyone can be down on Drana, but ymmv as always.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
What you don't want to do is compound a vulnerability to removal with a weakness in combat. Luckily in this case, her combat strengths are pretty high (made even more so by her particular brand of disruption) ...so her "dies to removal" clause is pretty easy to live with.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Mirror Entity would be my cut. If I can go 1 drop 2 drop 3 drop spend turn 4 mana on a attacking, I am probably winning that game as an aggressive deck. So that or flickerwisp would ( But blink decks have been scaled back in my cube, the displacer can still do broken things and create locks)
As to you other point, I do think people need to take potential 3 drop for cube in the context of the other great cube 3 drops. Many of those will give you value in the face of removal. Flickerwisp, Mentor, Splicer, and Spiritkeeper almost always give me value even when killed. So you raise a fine point. No it is not a deal breaker like for 6 drops, but we are getting to the point where many of our 3 drops are not tempo losers to removal so we should be asking that question. Brimaz sets a nice bar, partially because it can't be bolted.
But this is why crusader should be considered a top pick. It is explosive and it blanks a big portion of removal. I have lost my taste for protection but that may change. It was jsut the last one left in my cube so it's gone.
I used to love Mirran Crusader on paper, but in practice he has always been "meh" for me. He trades with 2/3s and bigger, his protection colors could've been better, he's underwhelming without boosting his stats, and he's not very splashable.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I also on the same boat as wtwlf and Edward about the "Die to removal" thing. In traditionnal powered cube environment, 3-drops and less doesn't really need to pass the Vindicate test if they can bring some sort of value in a different way. And this one does. As a 3 power frist striker, added to the disruption effect, I think Thalia 2.0 is fine. I wouldn't fault anyone for running this instead of Mirran Crusader, Mirror Entity or Soltari Champion (or even Exalted Angel for those who sort it as a 3-drop).
In counterpart, I think Blade Splicer, Flickerwisp, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Brimaz and Monastery Mentor are all better suit for cube. The first three bring sure value to the table at ETB or LTB and the last two have an immense ceiling potential.
About the art, it doesn't seem to bad. But I'm also open for a better original None-Promo art. Maybe some sort of un-zoom version of it.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
I think drana is still a great creature , but not a premium 3 drop like brimaz, ophiomancer, flesh carver, rabble master which is what I initially thought.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
In fairness, you didn't say 'how high' that initially was in that post, so without giving a bit more context, it's a bit much to expect folks to go and read all the other posts you originally made about Drana and hence possess a reference for your prior and current 'height'
Otherwise, I agree. It's not quite as good as Ophio, Flesh Carver and Brimaz, but they are just A* creatures. Drana is still easily good enough for most cubes I can imagine.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
That's fair, my initial statement doesn't mean much without being explicit about how high I initially was. Makes it easy to misinterpret.
Notice a trend of misinterpretation and that was the specific issue I decided to explain heh.
the main point I was trying to make is that I underestimated the consequences of being vulnerable to removal. Watching drana in action really hit that home for me.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I like the original art as well, but the beauty level of the promo one is unreachable IMO.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Everyone seems grumpy about the waterwark, but I like it because it actually represents the set unlike so many nonsensical ones.
Twitter
Youtube Channel
Cube Podcast
Draft my Cube!
I'd replace Fiend Hunter or Silverblade Paladin with New Thalia without even blinking.
In my cube, the cut will be Mirran Crusader.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
(CubeTutor & MTGS)
360 Peasant Cube!
Custom Cube
RWU Miracles RWU
I think it's just a guy. It doesn't support a particular strategy, disrupt a particular strategy or shine in matchups that are otherwise unfavorable for the kinds of decks he goes in. It's just kinda an effective beater. White's 3cc suite is full of creatures that are both effective beaters AND have one of the other qualities I listed above.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
The new Thalia give me the disruption I am looking for and still does a very handsome job holding a sword.
For me, yes, this is it primarily. I just don't like a guy that's a 2/2 doublestriker in some matches and an instant ragequit in others. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but there's just something uniquely frustrating about your opponent having a card that specifically hates on the particular colors you happened to draft. It's just arbitrary and feel-baddy. I go back and forth on the swords for that very reason. /2cents
Akrasia, a Custom 360 Cube
New To Cube?
Cubing with Two: A Guide to Two-Player Draft Formats