I will test it but I'm not that hyped. This is still a punisher card.
I mean, kind of, but not really. It's a 3/2 menace for 3 with an upside that gives your opponent a choice, but it's not a classic punisher card because it never does nothing. At worst, it says "at the beginning of your upkeep, put the top card of your library in your graveyard. Deal damage to your opponent equal to its mana cost," because, let's be honest, it's almost always going to be better for you opponent to bin whatever you would have drawn if it's remotely good, and if it's a card that is so useless that they give it to you, you get to move past that useless card.
Do you not play fact or fiction because it's a punisher mechanic (yes I know you get the final choice in FoF)? Not every card that gives an opponent a choice is bad.
I think all punisher cards warrant real hard scrutiny. What does this do?
In a control deck you stop at 3 lands, barring lands in hand; they will ALWAYS pitch a revealed land. Also menace is awkward evasion here.
In an aggro deck you pressure their life total. Your spells are also cheaper, because it's an aggro deck. (Duh ) This will then ping them for 1-2 a turn on average. Then it performs like a 4-5/2 menace no haste for 3 mana. Decent but not sick.
Playing devil's advocate here (yeah pun..) but it doesn't sound 100% convincing.
I would never play this in a control deck the same way I wouldn't play GG or Vortex so that's irrelevant, and hitting them for ~3+ from the reveals off this seems like a pretty good cube card for 3.
One difference between him and bob is that this guy lets you have a slightly longer curve. With Bob you really want to top out your curve at 4, but this guy will happily turn up a siege-gang commander.
Sure, moat situations you'll get the lesser option, but it still can put a lot of pressure on your opponent. The only downside I see to this guy is a fairly irrelevant creature type.
If ya'll don't see how this card is going to be fantastic in any red aggro deck, you must not spend a lot of time drafting aggro Without menace, this card would be un-cube-able, but menace makes it a premium 3 drop in my eyes. I'd be much more excited to run this in my aggro deck than Taurean Mauler or Countryside Crusher.
Getting the final choice is crucial in my opinion. I'm not saying Sin Prodder is bad, but the opponent will have some significant control over certain situations.
But the choice is all upside. Yes, there are some number of games where you need some specific card and your opponent gets to bin it, but there will also be some number of games where you flip 3 lands in a row and dig to that spell you need. If this guy was a 1-mana 2/2 with this ability, would anyone be hesitant about playing it? Of course not. What about a 3/2 flyer? Again, no. The main point is that it's a 3/2 with evasion for 3 that gives you either additional damage or card advantage, which is great. In any remotely aggressive deck, you will be happy with either choice. The WCS is that your opponent is binning bolts and you're getting 1 damage instead of 3, but you are still drawing a card every turn and your opponent has 0 control over that, just like normal. This guys ability is never a downside, which is why he's good. Literally never a downside.
Yes your opponent gets a choice, but you still draw for the turn, any damage it does is "free". Plus menace is underrated, its fairly easy at times to push through even more damage from this guy.
I think what separates Sin Prodder from other 'punisher' mechanics is that you don't need a specific outcome from any one flip. It's incremental advantage. If you cast a sorcery that gives your opponent a choice, you may not get what you want out of that spell. Turn wasted. Here, you know you're getting a 3/2 menace that has the potential to do something on each of your upkeeps. The opponent may do what's best for them on each flip but both choices are good for you and all you did was cast a creature on curve turns earlier.
I don't think this is really a punisher card. Just kind of a punisher trigger. The important difference there is that when I need a 3-power beater with evasion for 2R, I'll always get it. Other "punisher" cards give your opponent complete control over the effect you get from your mana investment. That's not the case with Sin Prodder. You always get a body.
Also, I think this is a good cube creature. It doesn't "hard-lock" you out of additional resources like Countryside Crusher might, but it limits your drawn lands ...which is a net positive in aggro. After that, you're either getting free reach or card advantage. All of the outcomes are positive for aggressive shells. But the important difference between this card and traditional punisher cards is that I'm casting this card for the body, and my opponent doesn't have an option that prevents me from having it.
This card is fantastic. The base creature is pretty decent. The card advantage/reach is great. You are never locked out of a draw since its an extra draw and doesn't effect your actual draw for the turn. This guy warrants testing for sure.
@ Salmo Sure, but what will the average dmg/turn be though, subtracting 40-ish percent being lands? 3 sounds high for aggro. You'll never get a relevant card from a savvy opponent when they have life to spare. So it comes down to the "DPS"
As i wrote earlier, it's about 1.2 for an aggro deck including lands. However a card like fireblast screws this calculation, since it will always be drawn. So the average effect is less than 1.2 dmg, but with some draws from time to time.
But the choice is all upside. Yes, there are some number of games where you need some specific card and your opponent gets to bin it, but there will also be some number of games where you flip 3 lands in a row and dig to that spell you need. If this guy was a 1-mana 2/2 with this ability, would anyone be hesitant about playing it? Of course not. What about a 3/2 flyer? Again, no. The main point is that it's a 3/2 with evasion for 3 that gives you either additional damage or card advantage, which is great. In any remotely aggressive deck, you will be happy with either choice. The WCS is that your opponent is binning bolts and you're getting 1 damage instead of 3, but you are still drawing a card every turn and your opponent has 0 control over that, just like normal. This guys ability is never a downside, which is why he's good. Literally never a downside.
The problem with your argument is, that prodder sinner is not a 2/2 for 1 mana. He is exactly a 3/2 with menace without the ability, and those stats aren't cubable. So the ability HAS to pull it's weigh, it's not just gravy. This means that "never a downside" isn't good enough. The ability has to be good. This is the reason why all the other punisher creatures fail to be cubeable
This is basically impossible to evaluate without testing for me. Yes, it's punisher, but it's all upside and is attached to a very relevant (although not good enough on it's own) body. I think this will basically play out as 3/2 menace that pings for 1 on upkeep the overwhelming majority of the time, and a card that will occassionally just run away with a game for you.
I initially misread this card and thought that the trigger occured instead of you normal draw. Therefore I didn't understand why (almost) everyone was praising it.
After re-reading it, I certainly think it is one of the better red 3-drops in cube. It is going in mine .
I love this card on its own, and I double love this card in a Feldon/Alesha shell, which is one of my favorite archetypes! Easy include for me; will probably swap out Akoum Firebird, which has been just ok for us.
Boggart brute is really brutalized here. A 3/2 menace for 2R doesn't need an amazing ability to be cubable, some upside sure, but not a huge one. there is a reason boggart brute was like the best card in magic origins limited.
I think all punisher cards warrant real hard scrutiny. What does this do?
In a control deck you stop at 3 lands, barring lands in hand; they will ALWAYS pitch a revealed land. Also menace is awkward evasion here.
In an aggro deck you pressure their life total. Your spells are also cheaper, because it's an aggro deck. (Duh ) This will then ping them for 1-2 a turn on average. Then it performs like a 4-5/2 menace no haste for 3 mana. Decent but not sick.
Playing devil's advocate here (yeah pun..) but it doesn't sound 100% convincing.
I would never play this in a control deck the same way I wouldn't play GG or Vortex so that's irrelevant, and hitting them for ~3+ from the reveals off this seems like a pretty good cube card for 3.
I actually think this card could be awesome in a Jund style control deck. It will get you incidental damage, and sneak in for 3 quite a bit. And unlike hard red aggro you have lots of 4-6 mana cards that will be very tough to swallow. I also run lots of incidental value graveyard stuff in my Cube Jund decks like Kolaghan's Command, Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, etc. There are all kinds of high level cards in midrange Jund that play well with this. (Sylvan Library, Bloodbraid Elf, K Command, Firebolt.
Unlike Bob cards this can go in ramp decks as well.
I wouldn't get hung up on the punisher piece for those struggling with that part of it. Other punisher cards suck because there is always one option that is clearly underpowered for the cost, so if the opponent can always choose that one you wind up with a weak card overall. But IMO this card is a different situation. Sure, some scenarios will be better than others. But even worst case, it's still upside attached to an already playable card (3/2 menace for 3 is perfectly serviceable IMO). And I'm not sure it's true punisher since 2/3's of the time, they are going to be faced with a lose/lose (non-land card - either give you gas or take damage).
I think all punisher cards warrant real hard scrutiny. What does this do?
In a control deck you stop at 3 lands, barring lands in hand; they will ALWAYS pitch a revealed land. Also menace is awkward evasion here.
In an aggro deck you pressure their life total. Your spells are also cheaper, because it's an aggro deck. (Duh ) This will then ping them for 1-2 a turn on average. Then it performs like a 4-5/2 menace no haste for 3 mana. Decent but not sick.
Playing devil's advocate here (yeah pun..) but it doesn't sound 100% convincing.
I would never play this in a control deck the same way I wouldn't play GG or Vortex so that's irrelevant, and hitting them for ~3+ from the reveals off this seems like a pretty good cube card for 3.
I actually think this card could be awesome in a Jund style control deck. It will get you incidental damage, and sneak in for 3 quite a bit. And unlike hard red aggro you have lots of 4-6 mana cards that will be very tough to swallow. I also run lots of incidental value graveyard stuff in my Cube Jund decks like Kolaghan's Command, Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, etc. There are all kinds of high level cards in midrange Jund that play well with this. (Sylvan Library, Bloodbraid Elf, K Command, Firebolt.
Unlike Bob cards this can go in ramp decks as well.
Letting them bin your lands each turn sounds horrendously awful for a control deck, and is probably not worth the better scenarios you could encounter.
For the record the red 3 drops that have power 3 or greater and have an evasion ability (and no crappy echo, sacrifice lands requirement, or instant die like ball lightning).....
Boggart Brute
Red is very shallow here and I think boggart brute was closer to playable than I realized.
I think all punisher cards warrant real hard scrutiny. What does this do?
In a control deck you stop at 3 lands, barring lands in hand; they will ALWAYS pitch a revealed land. Also menace is awkward evasion here.
In an aggro deck you pressure their life total. Your spells are also cheaper, because it's an aggro deck. (Duh ) This will then ping them for 1-2 a turn on average. Then it performs like a 4-5/2 menace no haste for 3 mana. Decent but not sick.
Playing devil's advocate here (yeah pun..) but it doesn't sound 100% convincing.
I would never play this in a control deck the same way I wouldn't play GG or Vortex so that's irrelevant, and hitting them for ~3+ from the reveals off this seems like a pretty good cube card for 3.
I actually think this card could be awesome in a Jund style control deck. It will get you incidental damage, and sneak in for 3 quite a bit. And unlike hard red aggro you have lots of 4-6 mana cards that will be very tough to swallow. I also run lots of incidental value graveyard stuff in my Cube Jund decks like Kolaghan's Command, Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, etc. There are all kinds of high level cards in midrange Jund that play well with this. (Sylvan Library, Bloodbraid Elf, K Command, Firebolt.
Unlike Bob cards this can go in ramp decks as well.
Letting them bin your lands each turn sounds horrendously awful for a control deck, and is probably not worth the better scenarios you could encounter.
What this card does has nothing to do with my draw. I might as well be revealing cards off the bottom. And in a control deck I am more likely to play things to control the top of my deck and make it worse for them.
It seems as if a few people are confused by teh ability. Your top card goes to you or the graveyard. The next card becomes your normal draw and you still have the same chance to draw lands as you would without this card. Just 40% of the time with this card it just puts a land in your graveyard. There is just as much chance that you will be pulled into land as not. In a control deck this card might win half the game itself and then turn into a draw engine when they are low.
Every land that is milled is that much of a percentage less that I can hit a land, so if I'm in a control deck and mill a land it is that much more likely over the next X turns that I don't draw a land. This percentage may not make a different over one or two turns, but in a control deck where I am aiming to take as many turns as I can, turn after turn losing that percentage to draw a land makes a difference. Playing this guy on curve in a control deck with 3 lands if it's my only t3 play and then missing once on a land drop because it's milled seems really really bad. Again, I understand this is not the scenario that is always going to happen and that control decks often have built-in ways to find lands, but when my draw doesn't allow that and I am missing, then the card is helping you lose you the game by letting my opponent mill lands I otherwise would've happily drawn + played. Control decks are probably where this card actually becomes a punisher card for that reason.
Also if you're not turning the corner and the burn is just fire axing them, then it's not really performing in a control deck ideally. It's a card that seems to performs well for the control deck when you are ahead, but is not really that great if you are behind other than being a blocker that dies to everything as you'd rather be drawing these cards that are being converted into burn more likely than you would want to hit them.
True, but you still get your normal draw, so your chances of drawing additional lands is pretty much the same when this card hits the field.
3/2 for 3 with menace is solid by itself, but with the additional CA/Damage this guy is nutty. Will be popped into my cube.
I mean, kind of, but not really. It's a 3/2 menace for 3 with an upside that gives your opponent a choice, but it's not a classic punisher card because it never does nothing. At worst, it says "at the beginning of your upkeep, put the top card of your library in your graveyard. Deal damage to your opponent equal to its mana cost," because, let's be honest, it's almost always going to be better for you opponent to bin whatever you would have drawn if it's remotely good, and if it's a card that is so useless that they give it to you, you get to move past that useless card.
Do you not play fact or fiction because it's a punisher mechanic (yes I know you get the final choice in FoF)? Not every card that gives an opponent a choice is bad.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I would never play this in a control deck the same way I wouldn't play GG or Vortex so that's irrelevant, and hitting them for ~3+ from the reveals off this seems like a pretty good cube card for 3.
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This card is also sweet with Fireblast.
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Sure, moat situations you'll get the lesser option, but it still can put a lot of pressure on your opponent. The only downside I see to this guy is a fairly irrelevant creature type.
But the choice is all upside. Yes, there are some number of games where you need some specific card and your opponent gets to bin it, but there will also be some number of games where you flip 3 lands in a row and dig to that spell you need. If this guy was a 1-mana 2/2 with this ability, would anyone be hesitant about playing it? Of course not. What about a 3/2 flyer? Again, no. The main point is that it's a 3/2 with evasion for 3 that gives you either additional damage or card advantage, which is great. In any remotely aggressive deck, you will be happy with either choice. The WCS is that your opponent is binning bolts and you're getting 1 damage instead of 3, but you are still drawing a card every turn and your opponent has 0 control over that, just like normal. This guys ability is never a downside, which is why he's good. Literally never a downside.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Also, I think this is a good cube creature. It doesn't "hard-lock" you out of additional resources like Countryside Crusher might, but it limits your drawn lands ...which is a net positive in aggro. After that, you're either getting free reach or card advantage. All of the outcomes are positive for aggressive shells. But the important difference between this card and traditional punisher cards is that I'm casting this card for the body, and my opponent doesn't have an option that prevents me from having it.
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As i wrote earlier, it's about 1.2 for an aggro deck including lands. However a card like fireblast screws this calculation, since it will always be drawn. So the average effect is less than 1.2 dmg, but with some draws from time to time.
The problem with your argument is, that prodder sinner is not a 2/2 for 1 mana. He is exactly a 3/2 with menace without the ability, and those stats aren't cubable. So the ability HAS to pull it's weigh, it's not just gravy. This means that "never a downside" isn't good enough. The ability has to be good. This is the reason why all the other punisher creatures fail to be cubeable
After re-reading it, I certainly think it is one of the better red 3-drops in cube. It is going in mine .
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I actually think this card could be awesome in a Jund style control deck. It will get you incidental damage, and sneak in for 3 quite a bit. And unlike hard red aggro you have lots of 4-6 mana cards that will be very tough to swallow. I also run lots of incidental value graveyard stuff in my Cube Jund decks like Kolaghan's Command, Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, etc. There are all kinds of high level cards in midrange Jund that play well with this. (Sylvan Library, Bloodbraid Elf, K Command, Firebolt.
Unlike Bob cards this can go in ramp decks as well.
I wouldn't get hung up on the punisher piece for those struggling with that part of it. Other punisher cards suck because there is always one option that is clearly underpowered for the cost, so if the opponent can always choose that one you wind up with a weak card overall. But IMO this card is a different situation. Sure, some scenarios will be better than others. But even worst case, it's still upside attached to an already playable card (3/2 menace for 3 is perfectly serviceable IMO). And I'm not sure it's true punisher since 2/3's of the time, they are going to be faced with a lose/lose (non-land card - either give you gas or take damage).
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Letting them bin your lands each turn sounds horrendously awful for a control deck, and is probably not worth the better scenarios you could encounter.
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Boggart Brute
Red is very shallow here and I think boggart brute was closer to playable than I realized.
What this card does has nothing to do with my draw. I might as well be revealing cards off the bottom. And in a control deck I am more likely to play things to control the top of my deck and make it worse for them.
It seems as if a few people are confused by teh ability. Your top card goes to you or the graveyard. The next card becomes your normal draw and you still have the same chance to draw lands as you would without this card. Just 40% of the time with this card it just puts a land in your graveyard. There is just as much chance that you will be pulled into land as not. In a control deck this card might win half the game itself and then turn into a draw engine when they are low.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Also if you're not turning the corner and the burn is just fire axing them, then it's not really performing in a control deck ideally. It's a card that seems to performs well for the control deck when you are ahead, but is not really that great if you are behind other than being a blocker that dies to everything as you'd rather be drawing these cards that are being converted into burn more likely than you would want to hit them.
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