3/2 menace is fine stats, but as a body independent of an ability, that's closer to 2 mana worth of value than 3 mana.
I've never seen a red 2-drop with such good stats. Considering the ability, which is damn real, the card definitly looks like a wonderful value 3-drop. But I understand the point the some tighter list might not find a spot for it. I guess the card is more likely to become 540 and more material.
Im saying that getting stuck at 3 mana because of it is awful and is not a floor I want to give my control decks for a card that is best in those decks when Im ahead.
While what your saying doesn't hold up against the math, the emotional argument is not completely unreasonable. Using fake figures here and ignoring the damage, let's say 80% of the time this card has no effect on your land drops. 10% of the time, this will dig closer to your land drop and win you the game because of it. 10% of the time, this will mill away the land you needed, losing you the game. When this does cause you to lose the game, it will feel like hot garbage and you will want to cut it.
Mathematically, it is a great card, but every so often it will randomly kill you. Kind of like Chaos Warp in EDH. It's overwhelmingly likely to be great, but once in a while Emrakul falls out and you get butchered.
I will echo that a land-denying opponent cannot keep you off your land with this card. This card is different than Jace, the Mindsculptor whose fate-seal ability can keep you off land. The difference is this card can't keep non-lands on top of your library. As other have said, it is a mill-effect (whether to your yard or hand) and so the next card has just as much chance of being a land as the first one.
I think the biggest strike against this card is when the card you reveal with its trigger is the spell you need (e.g removal, wrath, even cheap burn). Often times you want the card more than the pts. of damage you'll get from them binning it. It isn't the lands I worry about, it's the occasional time you'll lose a key spell and instead just get a negligible amount of damage. This card is incredibly fun though and I think it helps more often than it hurts you so definitely worth testing.
That's why this card really shines in an aggressive build. The cards you want a good percentage of the time are burn, and this makes those cards that. And rarely does it seem like them giving you a card is a bad thing, and when it is then it's probably pretty likely that you are not close enough to burn them out anyways.
But you know, no one is talking about a big strike against Zurgo being that he's not the best blocker, and as others have pointed out the fact that this ideally-aggressive card can be argued into slower builds is a really good sign for the power level it holds.
I think the biggest strike against this card is when the card you reveal with its trigger is the spell you need (e.g removal, wrath, even cheap burn). Often times you want the card more than the pts. of damage you'll get from them binning it. It isn't the lands I worry about, it's the occasional time you'll lose a key spell and instead just get a negligible amount of damage. This card is incredibly fun though and I think it helps more often than it hurts you so definitely worth testing.
Same as the lands. This is a mill effect, not responsible for not getting the cards you need. (Outside of effects that put something you want on top of your Library). Ohh that reminds me this is nice with the Worldly tutors of the world grabbing huuuuuuuggggee creatures. Occasionally it wil save you when they bin the game winning card and you have regrowth?
As an aside what red 3 drops do people think are better than this card?
Goblin Rabblemaster (Yes!)
Feldon (Maybe in reanimator but I don't think so)
Manic Vandal (Fine utility card but if they haven't played fast mana it is a rough turn 3 play)
Magus of the Wheel ( Close but I think Meance gives prodder the edge)
Morphs (I have found them a little slow for red aggro)
I think everyone is forgetting this card is a cheeky little devil. Risk, reward and all that stuff. I think it is great and it can take out Eldrazi Obligator since I tried forcing Eldrazi's into my Cube. Easy swap and this is pretty new territory, most people should be thinking about testing this card in their Cube, 360 and up I think. There are some good Red 3's but it isn't like Black 3's which is pretty stacked at the moment. I am sure everyone can find a cut somewhere and give this sneaky little guy a go.
I feel like this will lose you the game by land starvation as often as Dark Confidant will lose you the game because you lost too much life to its ability.
Pretty similar too
Crypt Brute 2R
Creature
Menace
At the beginning of your upkeep, flip a coin. If you win, deal 2 damage to your opponent. If they're at 2 life, draw a card instead.
3/2
Seems good enough to test at least, probably going to push out flip Chandra for good.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
I might not be comprehending the argument fully but isn't there just as much a chance that the land could be the card you draw normally and not be the card you reveal? You still get a normal draw? Also, isn't there a chance there are two lands in a row? Also, who cares, draw cards all day erry day?
I might not be comprehending the argument fully but isn't there just as much a chance that the land could be the card you draw normally and not be the card you reveal? You still get a normal draw? Also, isn't there a chance there are two lands in a row? Also, who cares, draw cards all day erry day?
Yes, the ability on this card is literally 0 downside. It's just as likely that it mills you to the lands you need than that it mills away the lands you need. The fact that the opponent gets a choice doesn't make the ability suddenly have a downside - it just makes it worse than if you got to choose, or if it always milled, or whatever.
The top of your library reveal is irrelevant. It's just as likely to bin something you want as it is to dig you to something you need. It's just like mill. Card quality/type isn't a factor when evaluating a mill for 1, because random = random. Every time you say "oh man, this binned a card I needed" you're just as likely to say "oh man, I'm glad Mr. Sin binned the top card, because the one I needed more was the next one down and I drew it during my draw step!". This doesn't hurt your draw any more than it improves it, and vice versa.
This is a 3/2 menace for 2R that will occasionally deal some extra direct damage. What happens to the top of your library isn't part of a logical evaluation of the card.
This is a 3/2 menace for 2R that will occasionally deal some extra direct damage. What happens to the top of your library isn't part of a logical evaluation of the card.
That. Ocassionnaly deal extra damage. Dig for gaz. Or provide CA.
Also, I think this is a good cube creature. It doesn't "hard-lock" you out of additional resources like Countryside Crusher might, but it limits your drawn lands ...which is a net positive in aggro. After that, you're either getting free reach or card advantage. All of the outcomes are positive for aggressive shells.
I agree with your most recent comment though, but this one doesn't make much sense.
Because there's no chance that the opponent will give you free lands. But there's a small chance that they might be forced into giving you extra cards. You're not more or less likely to get something you need, but when it does draw cards for you, there's pretty much no chance that they'll be more lands.
So, it's basically a 3/2 menace for 2R that mills you for 1 during your upkeep. As a part of that mill, it will randomly deal damage to the opponent, and occasionally draw extra cards. Of the extra cards drawn specifically off the Prodder, they'll be non-land cards. So not less lands overall, but less lands in hand generated by the devil's card-advantage ability vs spells (which it actually has a >0% chance of generating non-land CA for you).
You are always going to get your own draw now matter if it is a land or a spell but you will only ever draw or do damage when the other card is not a land. Anytime the land is there you are discarding it since its free for the opponent to prevent you from getting card advantage. The only "downside" to this card is that sometimes it is just a 3/2 with menace and in those situations you could still draw a land like you could as if it was really just a 3/2 with menace and no other abilities. If anything, this guy is better in a midrange or control deck where you are playing spells with higher mana costs and its harder for the opponent to want to take the hits.
It seems like most people here actually do understand this card for the most part; it's just hard to internet and read internet. I am excited to add this, looks like some nice damage output.
Someone mentioned elsewhere that this card basically can be looked at as two cards.
Mandude
3/2 2R Menace
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and CARDNAME does damage to target opponent equal to the CMC.
and
Mandude
3/2 2R Menace
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and put it into your hand.
Of course, you'll typically get the worse situation of the two, but either one of those cards is pretty good. Getting the worse scenario is usually not too awful, unless you dropped him while landlocked, and get unlucky flips.
I'm 100% buying in on this guy. This is an amazing card on so many levels.
As am I. Very excited to play this card. It's not broken, but it's powerful and will offer a lot of play (for both players). Wonderful design.
I suspect a lot of people are going to end up skipping or dropping it quickly though because of perceived baggage that comes along with the "punisher mechanic" label. But what are you going to do?
I don't think it's broken or anything ...just a solid critter. We'll see if Boggart Brute + ~1.3 extra damage on upkeep winds up being good enough in the long run. My guess is yes, but I need to test it to be sure.
I don't like Keranos, but I do like this guy. It's the 5cc gold enchantment that kills Keranos for me, not the inconsistency in the ability. Getting some free damage and/or cards off of a 3cc 3-power evasive creature is much more reasonable.
I've never seen a red 2-drop with such good stats. Considering the ability, which is damn real, the card definitly looks like a wonderful value 3-drop. But I understand the point the some tighter list might not find a spot for it. I guess the card is more likely to become 540 and more material.
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While what your saying doesn't hold up against the math, the emotional argument is not completely unreasonable. Using fake figures here and ignoring the damage, let's say 80% of the time this card has no effect on your land drops. 10% of the time, this will dig closer to your land drop and win you the game because of it. 10% of the time, this will mill away the land you needed, losing you the game. When this does cause you to lose the game, it will feel like hot garbage and you will want to cut it.
Mathematically, it is a great card, but every so often it will randomly kill you. Kind of like Chaos Warp in EDH. It's overwhelmingly likely to be great, but once in a while Emrakul falls out and you get butchered.
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That's why this card really shines in an aggressive build. The cards you want a good percentage of the time are burn, and this makes those cards that. And rarely does it seem like them giving you a card is a bad thing, and when it is then it's probably pretty likely that you are not close enough to burn them out anyways.
But you know, no one is talking about a big strike against Zurgo being that he's not the best blocker, and as others have pointed out the fact that this ideally-aggressive card can be argued into slower builds is a really good sign for the power level it holds.
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Same as the lands. This is a mill effect, not responsible for not getting the cards you need. (Outside of effects that put something you want on top of your Library). Ohh that reminds me this is nice with the Worldly tutors of the world grabbing huuuuuuuggggee creatures. Occasionally it wil save you when they bin the game winning card and you have regrowth?
As an aside what red 3 drops do people think are better than this card?
Goblin Rabblemaster (Yes!)
Feldon (Maybe in reanimator but I don't think so)
Manic Vandal (Fine utility card but if they haven't played fast mana it is a rough turn 3 play)
Magus of the Wheel ( Close but I think Meance gives prodder the edge)
Morphs (I have found them a little slow for red aggro)
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Crypt Brute 2R
Creature
Menace
At the beginning of your upkeep, flip a coin. If you win, deal 2 damage to your opponent. If they're at 2 life, draw a card instead.
3/2
Seems good enough to test at least, probably going to push out flip Chandra for good.
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I think in theory this deals much more damage than flippy Chandra.
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Yes, the ability on this card is literally 0 downside. It's just as likely that it mills you to the lands you need than that it mills away the lands you need. The fact that the opponent gets a choice doesn't make the ability suddenly have a downside - it just makes it worse than if you got to choose, or if it always milled, or whatever.
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This is a 3/2 menace for 2R that will occasionally deal some extra direct damage. What happens to the top of your library isn't part of a logical evaluation of the card.
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With this and madness and possible other SOI cards, I think I may up the red graveyard/discard package a little bit.
Existing cards: Chandra's Phoenix, Squee, Goblin Nabob, Hellspark Elemental, Firebolt, Faithless looting.
I might add/put back: Hell's Thunder, Devil's Play, Firestorm
That. Ocassionnaly deal extra damage. Dig for gaz. Or provide CA.
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I agree with your most recent comment though, but this one doesn't make much sense.
So, it's basically a 3/2 menace for 2R that mills you for 1 during your upkeep. As a part of that mill, it will randomly deal damage to the opponent, and occasionally draw extra cards. Of the extra cards drawn specifically off the Prodder, they'll be non-land cards. So not less lands overall, but less lands in hand generated by the devil's card-advantage ability vs spells (which it actually has a >0% chance of generating non-land CA for you).
Hope that clarifies.
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Mandude
3/2 2R Menace
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and CARDNAME does damage to target opponent equal to the CMC.
and
Mandude
3/2 2R Menace
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and put it into your hand.
Of course, you'll typically get the worse situation of the two, but either one of those cards is pretty good. Getting the worse scenario is usually not too awful, unless you dropped him while landlocked, and get unlucky flips.
As am I. Very excited to play this card. It's not broken, but it's powerful and will offer a lot of play (for both players). Wonderful design.
I suspect a lot of people are going to end up skipping or dropping it quickly though because of perceived baggage that comes along with the "punisher mechanic" label. But what are you going to do?
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I think of it as a 3cmc Keranos, God of Storms. If you like Keranos, you're gonna like him as well.
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