I wonder if many of the naysayers on this card also don't play much with Ponder/Preordain. It seems if you consider these to be good cards you have to be willing to give Oath a shot. I think an understanding of Ponder/Preordain is necessary to properly evaluate this card.
If you don't think Ponder/Preordain are good you should force them into some decks and see if your mind changes. I had to do this myself to come around on them. Otherwise I only played them if there was nothing else. It is easy to play another counter, removal, utility creature or finisher instead. But this is basically the 23rd of the same stuff - the marginal utility is much less. Ponder/Preordain will make your other 22 much more potent than one more of the same stuff.
If Oath hits as often as expected it will be a welcome addition to green.
As one of the initial naysayers, I think you are right. There are a lot of people who look to pick those cantrips 10-15 and play them as cards 22-23. For me they are critical pickups once I know I am blue and are solid slots in the deck after the core 10-15 cards.
On the other side they are certainly not something I splash for, and are particularly useful to blue decks because they help maintain land drops while not decreasing threat density.
While there is the huge upside to having Oath in a color that doesn't get cubeable card selection cards, there are some things that will keep it from ever truly being ponder/preordain level.
1. A huge value in the blue cantrips is maintaining your mana development. Green has more cards that do this than any other color.
2. This can't get any card. It gets great 80% of your deck, but the times your cycle your Natural Order, Ancestral, Sol Ring, etc. you may feel bad and the odds of winning that game may have gone down. There may only be 8 misses in my deck, but in a powered cube many of those are rock stars (Except mana rocks).
3. Green has other ways to get threats. For my classification this is where I am looking at putting it. GSZ, Natural Order, Worldly Tutor, Sylvan Tutor, Primal Command all get exactly what you want. Sylvan Library gets used over and over. Only some of these replace themselves.
My initial impressions for working with it, show it above cards like Primal Command and Sylvan Tutor, but not above Worldly Tutor, GSZ, Natural Order, or Sylvan Library. So for me I cut into my bloated 3-5 creature section. But I will note that many 36o cubes don't play GSZ or worldly tutor so I would be surprised to see this in anyones small cube.
I'm not so sure about comparing this to NO/GSZ/etc. I mean, are we comparing Preordain/Ponder to Tinker? Maybe that's part of the difficulty in judging this card since it really doesn't have a cubeable precedent that it's similar to, but my mind doesn't go to NO and pals when trying to find similar cards.
Cards worse than Sylvan Library in terms of potential card draw / card selection.
But its decent enough to give a quick 1 mana option to smooth your draws.
However, to really benefit from the card, you really want to use its color fixing aspect aswell.
In Modern it does a good job to fix your mana in Junk decks to get a easy Liliana turn 3 and such. If you go full out with the planeswalkers you might further increase the benefit , which is all decent enough.
I would be surprised to see it miss small cube inclusion (surprised is the wrong word, because the card is undervalued right now ..."incorrectly excluded" would be the more opportune phrase). The density of powerful cards makes cantrip effects even stronger, and this is one of the best ones. Being able to choose between mana and gas isn't only important for blue. Green has ramp cards, but it doesn't make hitting lands any less valuable when you need them. More importantly, being able to use this to draw into late game gas is arguably more valuable than blue cantrips are for blue decks, because you're more likely to have lots of mana sources already. So when you're using a card selection effect because it can replace itself with a land or a body, it will be relevant in all stages of the game. Just like the blue ones.
As for #2, this can bottom cards and help you get to those broken spells just as often as it will bottom the ones you want. It's a common misunderstanding that mill effects or library manipulation effects help/hurt your ability to see specific cards. There's just as much of a chance that your best instant is in your top 3 cards as it is to be in the 3 cards right below them. Making this card just as likely to bottom a Natural Order as it is to help set one up for your next couple draws.
do people really value the second ability so little? While I disagree with this being the best cantrip in the cube even if you hit 3 targets (brainstorm is pretty broken) its at least comparable to ponder and preordain, and the second ability lets you make a lot less painful splashes. This and sylvan advocate are my includes for this set in my 360.
I would be surprised to see it miss small cube inclusion (surprised is the wrong word, because the card is undervalued right now ..."incorrectly excluded" would be the more opportune phrase). The density of powerful cards makes cantrip effects even stronger, and this is one of the best ones. Being able to choose between mana and gas isn't only important for blue. Green has ramp cards, but it doesn't make hitting lands any less valuable when you need them. More importantly, being able to use this to draw into late game gas is arguably more valuable than blue cantrips are for blue decks, because you're more likely to have lots of mana sources already. So when you're using a card selection effect because it can replace itself with a land or a body, it will be relevant in all stages of the game. Just like the blue ones.
As for #2, this can bottom cards and help you get to those broken spells just as often as it will bottom the ones you want. It's a common misunderstanding that mill effects or library manipulation effects help/hurt your ability to see specific cards. There's just as much of a chance that your best instant is in your top 3 cards as it is to be in the 3 cards right below them. Making this card just as likely to bottom a Natural Order as it is to help set one up for your next couple draws.
My long term play may change my mind and move it to 360. But just as cantrips are more important at 360, completely-unfair broken cards are more a part of the experience. I am not really arguing the math about bottoming good cards and your overall chance of seeing a card in a given game( I get that). But it will never be ponder in my mind because a ponder/preordain top deck may save me that turn if there is any card in my deck that can save me. If I don't have a creature/planeswalker out, Oath is a dead draw on that final turn. A minor distinction, but my group's style/preference means the ceiling is lower and less popular.
I would be surprised to see it miss small cube inclusion (surprised is the wrong word, because the card is undervalued right now ..."incorrectly excluded" would be the more opportune phrase). The density of powerful cards makes cantrip effects even stronger, and this is one of the best ones. Being able to choose between mana and gas isn't only important for blue. Green has ramp cards, but it doesn't make hitting lands any less valuable when you need them. More importantly, being able to use this to draw into late game gas is arguably more valuable than blue cantrips are for blue decks, because you're more likely to have lots of mana sources already. So when you're using a card selection effect because it can replace itself with a land or a body, it will be relevant in all stages of the game. Just like the blue ones.
As for #2, this can bottom cards and help you get to those broken spells just as often as it will bottom the ones you want. It's a common misunderstanding that mill effects or library manipulation effects help/hurt your ability to see specific cards. There's just as much of a chance that your best instant is in your top 3 cards as it is to be in the 3 cards right below them. Making this card just as likely to bottom a Natural Order as it is to help set one up for your next couple draws.
My long term play may change my mind and move it to 360. But just as cantrips are more important at 360, completely-unfair broken cards are more a part of the experience. I am not really arguing the math about bottoming good cards and your overall chance of seeing a card in a given game( I get that). But it will never be ponder in my mind because a ponder/preordain top deck may save me that turn if there is any card in my deck that can save me. If I don't have a creature/planeswalker out, Oath is a dead draw on that final turn. A minor distinction, but my group's style/preference means the ceiling is lower and less popular.
I might be playing it wrong, but in topdeck mode, ponder, preordain are some of the cards i want to see the most. They let me get the best of the top 3 or 4 cards for 1 extra mana, which usually provides me with something playable. rather than just 1 card which could be useless.
edit: ok i misread that, but in a green deck a creature or a planeswalker will be your answer to problematic things anyway.
If I don't have a creature/planeswalker out, Oath is a dead draw on that final turn.
But you're not cutting Ponder for this card. You're cutting a redundant card that would've been just as dead of a draw. Nobody's suggesting not playing Ponder or Preordain. What green cantrip would've secured the winning non-creature, non-planeswalker, non-land out you were looking for?
If I don't have a creature/planeswalker out, Oath is a dead draw on that final turn.
But you're not cutting Ponder for this card. You're cutting a redundant card that would've been just as dead of a draw. Nobody's suggesting not playing Ponder or Preordain. What green cantrip would've secured the winning non-creature, non-planeswalker, non-land out you were looking for?
You are very right there is no cantrip. I am arguing the esoteric "Not on the level of ponder/preordain". They are certainly not competing but some people (not me) might just rather play Harmonize. Or if I cut to 360 I would probably keep GSZ in over Oath.
If I don't have a creature/planeswalker out, Oath is a dead draw on that final turn.
But you're not cutting Ponder for this card. You're cutting a redundant card that would've been just as dead of a draw. Nobody's suggesting not playing Ponder or Preordain. What green cantrip would've secured the winning non-creature, non-planeswalker, non-land out you were looking for?
You are very right there is no cantrip. I am arguing the esoteric "Not on the level of ponder/preordain". They are certainly not competing but some people (not me) might just rather play Harmonize. Or if I cut to 360 I would probably keep GSZ in over Oath.
Harmonize is a totally different card. That's like comparing Ponder and Supreme Verdict.
If I don't have a creature/planeswalker out, Oath is a dead draw on that final turn.
But you're not cutting Ponder for this card. You're cutting a redundant card that would've been just as dead of a draw. Nobody's suggesting not playing Ponder or Preordain. What green cantrip would've secured the winning non-creature, non-planeswalker, non-land out you were looking for?
You are very right there is no cantrip. I am arguing the esoteric "Not on the level of ponder/preordain". They are certainly not competing but some people (not me) might just rather play Harmonize. Or if I cut to 360 I would probably keep GSZ in over Oath.
Harmonize is a totally different card. That's like comparing Ponder and Supreme Verdict.
If I don't have a creature/planeswalker out, Oath is a dead draw on that final turn.
But you're not cutting Ponder for this card. You're cutting a redundant card that would've been just as dead of a draw. Nobody's suggesting not playing Ponder or Preordain. What green cantrip would've secured the winning non-creature, non-planeswalker, non-land out you were looking for?
You are very right there is no cantrip. I am arguing the esoteric "Not on the level of ponder/preordain". They are certainly not competing but some people (not me) might just rather play Harmonize. Or if I cut to 360 I would probably keep GSZ in over Oath.
Harmonize is a totally different card. That's like comparing Ponder and Supreme Verdict.
It's more like comparing Ponder to Concentrate
Yeah, I was trying to pick a card that was generally cubed.
Not to beat the point to death but those who are including Oath aren't cutting a very similar card to put it in. I just grabbed harmonize as a another card that a lot of people like in there green section which is also is compared to an effect that is usually blue only. There are many who try to keep non creature green cards to a minimum so it is entirely likely things in the ballpark of harmonize will be cut.
What I don't like about the card is that it won't let you search for anything and that it seems to be restricted to creature/ramp deck only. That don't mean it's a bad card but only that it could mean the card is most likely to be narrow. Yeah a land and a planeswalker can also be found with it, but specific answer can't. The main difference with blue cantrip is that they let you select any card. For that reason, they fit into any deck and you just need to be able to produce blue mana to use them. OoN for it's part has to seek for a creature, a planeswalker or a land and that's all the difference in the world.
OoN just can't be thrown into any decks like all the blue cantrips can. Blue cantrips would be just as good in any deck you'll found a spot for whether it is in a midrange, ramp, control, tempo or combo deck. I think we just can't state the same thing about OoN. And that's pretty much what turns me off about the card.
If they printed this card in blue and it hit noncreature cards, it would be excellent. Just as good (if not better) than most other cantrips in blue. Since blue decks tend to run fewer creatures, the ability for it to be an incredible cantrip when it's picking from 3 that would default to a Sleight of Hand the rest of the time would make it amazing. Regardless of what the passive ability is. This is better than that theoretical spell, because choosing between resource or threat is better than being forced to bottom a win-con in the late game. Green decks play about as few "misses" for Oath as blue control decks run creatures, and this card hits a good percentage of cards an above-average number of times. And since green decks have a lot of their "answer" cards built onto their creatures, it CAN hit answers about as well as a non-green cantrip can in a non-green deck.
I think the disconnect is a basic failure to understand the fundamental value built into card selection. It gives you a choice of any of the cards half the time or better, and bottoms the other two. It gives you a choice of two cards and bottoms the other ones better than 9 times out of 10. That's just as good as the selection that you get from the other cantrips. Most of the time, you want to hit a land OR a nonland card. You play cantrips so they can be either gas or resources. And Oath does this as well as any of the other ones do. Arguably better, because you always see a 3rd card deep before you make any choices. None of the cantrips are particularly great at digging for specific outs in a singleton format. But the Abundance trigger effect of exchanging a 1-mana investment for any type of card you need is why they're good. It's not about whiffing on a card type, it's about the reliability of turning my 1-mana investment into either gas or a resource when I need to. And this does so reliably.
The basic nature of this card boils down to this. When you really need a land, if this whiffs, you were going to lose that game. If you really need a body to drop to the board, and this whiffs, you were going to lose that game. When you really need a clutch instant/sorcery/enchantment ...no green card you could've drawn would've been that card anyways. The same reason all the other cantrips are good apply to Oath. And as much as you can nitpick some of the things that the best cantrips in the game can do that this card can't, you're ignoring all the things that this card does that those cards can't. This is a premium cantrip. Premium. In a color that shouldn't have access to 1-mana effects of this ilk.
For me, it just feels too much like a 1-mana Grisly Salvage. And for that reason, I really doubt it could become as good as you said. It's a good cantrip, absolutly, but a premium one? Come on. I mean, Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain just come from another league. I'm not saying OoN is bad, just that the hype around it seems oversized IMO.
It's not a bad card. It draws you a random card that you may not need, but it's a fine card. It's not a 360 staple, but it can see plays in this level amongst other beastly card. I think 450+ cube should give this card a whirl.
As one of the ones who wasn't too hot on this card when it was first spoiled, I'm starting to see how useful it is. After cubing with Kiora, Master of the Depths for a while, I've come to appreciate any form of card selection in any green build. Like Kiora, Oath of Nissa both searches for either the mana you need to develop your board state or dig for that one threat you need on the board, but Oath of Nissa only costs one mana. We all love Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet because he shores up many of black's weaknesses. While not as bomby / flashy, Oath of Nissa helps patches up one of green's weaknesses in card filtering.
Let's compare Oath of Nissa to two other (somewhat) commonly played green enchantments: Evolutionary Leap and Curse of Predation. Both of these cards have much, much higher ceilings than Oath of Nissa, but I'm much more willing to maindeck Oath of Nissa than either of these two cards in any green deck that's heavy on permanents.
Ponder / Preordain aren't very likely to be first picked, but they're always going to make the cut in the blue deck. The same goes for Oath of Nissa in green and that's why it's so good. It's no Survival of the Fittest, Sylvan Library, or Rancor, but I predict that its maindeck percentage is going to be way higher than every other green enchantment that's currently played
i'm surprised @ the amount of disdain OoN is getting here. it seems to be getting a bad rap when compared to the blue cantrips. i assume that most of the cube folks posting here also play other eternal formats or @ least have a passing familiarity w/ them, how often have you kept a 1 land hand w/ a ponder/brainstorm/preordain? i daresay that most of the time you're keeping that 1 land hand w/ a cantrip isnt b/c you're hand is so good that you think it can win w/ off that 1 land, i bet you're hoping to hit a land w/ that cantrip. or later in the game you're brainstorm-ing trying to hit that 2nd blue card to pitch to a force. in both scenarios you're digging for resources &/or answers, which is exactly what this card does, the same as those, so whats the problem? brainstorm/ponder/preordain are all cube staples & so is this, it just happens to be green...
That's my biggest issue with the naysayers: How can you say this card is not great when you look at the math? If you understand the numbers and compare them to what you expect/want out of a cantrip, then this card is great. Is this going to perform well in a deck that doesn't have X options to choose from? No, but when this card is in that deck--something green tends to want to do--it's pretty easy for it to be able to choose what you want out of those top 3, which is pretty great. AND you can bounce or blink this cantrip, AND it has a random planes walker ability that when it's relevant is probably the difference between you winning and losing the game. (Since casting your spells is important.)
I was looking at this card in a negative/underwhelmed light at first; then the math was done, I looked at it, and admit I was wrong.
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@steve_man I would p2/3p1 a ponder/preordain if I'm in blue and that's the best option, and I imagine the same can be said about this card if I'm in green at the same point in the draft.
I cast this card 4-5 times last night. It never whiffed, and I was never sad to draw it. One game I mulled to five on the play, cast Oath of Nissa and Sleight of Hand on turn 2, and won them game. Digging 3 cards into your deck is so valuable. Id say this card is 360 and at worst 450 material.
As one of the initial naysayers, I think you are right. There are a lot of people who look to pick those cantrips 10-15 and play them as cards 22-23. For me they are critical pickups once I know I am blue and are solid slots in the deck after the core 10-15 cards.
On the other side they are certainly not something I splash for, and are particularly useful to blue decks because they help maintain land drops while not decreasing threat density.
While there is the huge upside to having Oath in a color that doesn't get cubeable card selection cards, there are some things that will keep it from ever truly being ponder/preordain level.
1. A huge value in the blue cantrips is maintaining your mana development. Green has more cards that do this than any other color.
2. This can't get any card. It gets great 80% of your deck, but the times your cycle your Natural Order, Ancestral, Sol Ring, etc. you may feel bad and the odds of winning that game may have gone down. There may only be 8 misses in my deck, but in a powered cube many of those are rock stars (Except mana rocks).
3. Green has other ways to get threats. For my classification this is where I am looking at putting it. GSZ, Natural Order, Worldly Tutor, Sylvan Tutor, Primal Command all get exactly what you want. Sylvan Library gets used over and over. Only some of these replace themselves.
My initial impressions for working with it, show it above cards like Primal Command and Sylvan Tutor, but not above Worldly Tutor, GSZ, Natural Order, or Sylvan Library. So for me I cut into my bloated 3-5 creature section. But I will note that many 36o cubes don't play GSZ or worldly tutor so I would be surprised to see this in anyones small cube.
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But its decent enough to give a quick 1 mana option to smooth your draws.
However, to really benefit from the card, you really want to use its color fixing aspect aswell.
In Modern it does a good job to fix your mana in Junk decks to get a easy Liliana turn 3 and such. If you go full out with the planeswalkers you might further increase the benefit , which is all decent enough.
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As for #2, this can bottom cards and help you get to those broken spells just as often as it will bottom the ones you want. It's a common misunderstanding that mill effects or library manipulation effects help/hurt your ability to see specific cards. There's just as much of a chance that your best instant is in your top 3 cards as it is to be in the 3 cards right below them. Making this card just as likely to bottom a Natural Order as it is to help set one up for your next couple draws.
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My long term play may change my mind and move it to 360. But just as cantrips are more important at 360, completely-unfair broken cards are more a part of the experience. I am not really arguing the math about bottoming good cards and your overall chance of seeing a card in a given game( I get that). But it will never be ponder in my mind because a ponder/preordain top deck may save me that turn if there is any card in my deck that can save me. If I don't have a creature/planeswalker out, Oath is a dead draw on that final turn. A minor distinction, but my group's style/preference means the ceiling is lower and less popular.
I might be playing it wrong, but in topdeck mode, ponder, preordain are some of the cards i want to see the most. They let me get the best of the top 3 or 4 cards for 1 extra mana, which usually provides me with something playable. rather than just 1 card which could be useless.
edit: ok i misread that, but in a green deck a creature or a planeswalker will be your answer to problematic things anyway.
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But you're not cutting Ponder for this card. You're cutting a redundant card that would've been just as dead of a draw. Nobody's suggesting not playing Ponder or Preordain. What green cantrip would've secured the winning non-creature, non-planeswalker, non-land out you were looking for?
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You are very right there is no cantrip. I am arguing the esoteric "Not on the level of ponder/preordain". They are certainly not competing but some people (not me) might just rather play Harmonize. Or if I cut to 360 I would probably keep GSZ in over Oath.
Harmonize is a totally different card. That's like comparing Ponder and Supreme Verdict.
It's more like comparing Ponder to Concentrate
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Yeah, I was trying to pick a card that was generally cubed.
OoN just can't be thrown into any decks like all the blue cantrips can. Blue cantrips would be just as good in any deck you'll found a spot for whether it is in a midrange, ramp, control, tempo or combo deck. I think we just can't state the same thing about OoN. And that's pretty much what turns me off about the card.
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I think the disconnect is a basic failure to understand the fundamental value built into card selection. It gives you a choice of any of the cards half the time or better, and bottoms the other two. It gives you a choice of two cards and bottoms the other ones better than 9 times out of 10. That's just as good as the selection that you get from the other cantrips. Most of the time, you want to hit a land OR a nonland card. You play cantrips so they can be either gas or resources. And Oath does this as well as any of the other ones do. Arguably better, because you always see a 3rd card deep before you make any choices. None of the cantrips are particularly great at digging for specific outs in a singleton format. But the Abundance trigger effect of exchanging a 1-mana investment for any type of card you need is why they're good. It's not about whiffing on a card type, it's about the reliability of turning my 1-mana investment into either gas or a resource when I need to. And this does so reliably.
The basic nature of this card boils down to this. When you really need a land, if this whiffs, you were going to lose that game. If you really need a body to drop to the board, and this whiffs, you were going to lose that game. When you really need a clutch instant/sorcery/enchantment ...no green card you could've drawn would've been that card anyways. The same reason all the other cantrips are good apply to Oath. And as much as you can nitpick some of the things that the best cantrips in the game can do that this card can't, you're ignoring all the things that this card does that those cards can't. This is a premium cantrip. Premium. In a color that shouldn't have access to 1-mana effects of this ilk.
This card is really, really good.
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Let's compare Oath of Nissa to two other (somewhat) commonly played green enchantments: Evolutionary Leap and Curse of Predation. Both of these cards have much, much higher ceilings than Oath of Nissa, but I'm much more willing to maindeck Oath of Nissa than either of these two cards in any green deck that's heavy on permanents.
Ponder / Preordain aren't very likely to be first picked, but they're always going to make the cut in the blue deck. The same goes for Oath of Nissa in green and that's why it's so good. It's no Survival of the Fittest, Sylvan Library, or Rancor, but I predict that its maindeck percentage is going to be way higher than every other green enchantment that's currently played
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I was looking at this card in a negative/underwhelmed light at first; then the math was done, I looked at it, and admit I was wrong.
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@steve_man I would p2/3p1 a ponder/preordain if I'm in blue and that's the best option, and I imagine the same can be said about this card if I'm in green at the same point in the draft.
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