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Force Spike
Tap target non land permanent it doesn't untap during it's controllers next untap.
This for 1UU was my guess, too. I really like the first two modes. The third one not so much (even though it is acceptable and realistic). I hope Wizards surprises us there. Like, something a little bit more pushed would be nice. This isn't a standard legal card, after all.
Since it is a commander product I think it'll be any permanent since that makes a difference in multiplayer but not nearly as devastating as it could be in standard. That for 1UU would be cool.
I'm not quite on the hype train for this card. I see the flexibility and it certainly is pushed. Midrange/Control definitely like this but does aggro truly love this? Any creature based deck really isn't going to want to pyroclasm often (and when you do, you are probably losing pretty badly). Super Lava Axe mode is fine as a finisher (but would you ever just run Lava Axe even for one mana cheaper and one more damage?). Shatter effects are nice (but less good in a cube with my artifact suite). And it costs the dreaded 4 mana (which in Red is just super tight). Combining all this together is certainly really strong though. Still, I really am not sure on this one.
I'm not quite on the hype train for this card. I see the flexibility and it certainly is pushed. Midrange/Control definitely like this but does aggro truly love this? Any creature based deck really isn't going to want to pyroclasm often (and when you do, you are probably losing pretty badly). Super Lava Axe mode is fine as a finisher (but would you ever just run Lava Axe even for one mana cheaper and one more damage?). Shatter effects are nice (but less good in a cube with my artifact suite). And it costs the dreaded 4 mana (which in Red is just super tight). Combining all this together is certainly really strong though. Still, I really am not sure on this one.
I agree with you that it's nothing special in non-powered cubes that don't have many artifacts.
Sidenote of it's sickness against the artifact deck: This card can kill a myr battlesphere, it's tokens, and kill a mana rock in the process
Any creature based deck really isn't going to want to pyroclasm often (and when you do, you are probably losing pretty badly). Super Lava Axe mode is fine as a finisher (but would you ever just run Lava Axe even for one mana cheaper and one more damage?).
This isn't Pyroclasm, it isn't Lava Axe, and it isn't Shatter. It is better than all three, and all three are things you'll regularly want at your disposal. When you need a Pyroclasm, you really need a Pyroclasm. When you want a Lava Axe, nothing is better. When you're looking for a Shatter, three for the price of two is more than enough.
This isn't Pyroclasm, it isn't Lava Axe, and it isn't Shatter. It is better than all three, and all three are things you'll regularly want at your disposal. When you need a Pyroclasm, you really need a Pyroclasm. When you want a Lava Axe, nothing is better. When you're looking for a Shatter, three for the price of two is more than enough.
I guess. The thing about Cryptic is that all 4 modes are things pretty much every blue deck wants. Countering is always good. Drawing a card is always good. Bouncing permanents is universally useful. Tapping creatures (the most conditional mode) has meaningful applications in many matches.
Fiery Confluence isn't quite that generically good. More than one shatter is very conditional. Throwing damage at your opponent's dome is fine but it might not be worth spending mana on depending on the game state. It's also worth mentioning I don't run walkers, so the value of dome burn is much lower in my meta. Dealing damage to all creatures is also very conditional. If I'm running an aggro deck, it's usually going to be a desperation play. I get the "whole being greater than the sum of the parts" thing. Not saying the card is bad at all. Just not completely sold is all.
So do I. I saw a quote above about it not being good and decided to be a little silly. Like most I think the card is great. Thanks for being respectful though.
If you don't run many artifacts, and no planeswalkers in your cube, then it's no surprise that you're not that impressed with Fiery Confluence. You're missing out on 2 of it's "4" modes (if counting burn to face and killing planeswalkers as seperate modes).
Any creature based deck really isn't going to want to pyroclasm often (and when you do, you are probably losing pretty badly). Super Lava Axe mode is fine as a finisher (but would you ever just run Lava Axe even for one mana cheaper and one more damage?).
This isn't Pyroclasm, it isn't Lava Axe, and it isn't Shatter. It is better than all three, and all three are things you'll regularly want at your disposal. When you need a Pyroclasm, you really need a Pyroclasm. When you want a Lava Axe, nothing is better. When you're looking for a Shatter, three for the price of two is more than enough.
If you aren't running planes walkers, and only run a small handful of artifacts then it's a LOT harder to make this card consistent 2 or 3 for 1, which is a huge part of the appeal for non hyper Agro decks.
Cryptic is RARELY less than a 2 for 1 , which is a huge part of its power level. Also "counter target spell and draw card" is relevant almost all the time vs all decks. Pyroclasm/lava axe split is still pretty situational
With lots of artifacts lying around, it gives so many more situations where you can get an extra card of card advantage out of the card, which is huge.
I agree with you that it's nothing special in non-powered cubes that don't have many artifacts.
Yeah, 6 to the face for 2RR is just awful....lol. I'll grant you this is better in powered since the artifacts are stronger, but this easily makes the cut in both.
Edit: Also I'm terrible at quoting.....this was directed at Lucid Vision's comment
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Don't know why you would quote me then paraphrase something different than what I said.
6 to the face for 2RR is "nothing special" and some unpowered cubes run a lot more artifacts than others, I was referring to an unpowered cube with few artifacts. It's a playable card in that unpowered cube but a low pick and nothing to get excited about. However, it's a solid midpick in a small powered cube for any deck playing red... And given its competition that's paying a lot of respect to the card.
The mode it doesn't have it applying pressure, in quadrant theory that would be the development phase. But it can be ok from behind (Kill their stuff), when ahead (6 to the dome) or at pairity (lots of modes lots of options).
It's no cryptic but cyrptic is terrible in the development phase anyway.
I'm not convinced that Cryptic is better than Dismiss in the context of cube (it's certainly better in constructed). Obviously Cryptic is better in monoblue, but it's pretty far from splashable. I feel the same reasons people have cut Geralf's Messenger despite its power level also apply here. Considering how often Cryptic gets cast as just Dismiss (75% maybe?), it makes you think.
If you aren't running planes walkers, and only run a small handful of artifacts then it's a LOT harder to make this card consistent 2 or 3 for 1, which is a huge part of the appeal for non hyper Agro decks.
In an aggro deck, doing 6 damage to a player for a single card is as good as a two-for-one. And unless you're playing no artifacts, the ability to kill swords and mana rocks and still dome them is a huge bonus when you can get it.
There are decks that this isn't great against, so it's not like Cryptic in that sense, but it is great probably against 70%+ of decks, and it fits into multiple archetypes. Anything that reduces red's over-saturation of dedicated aggro spells without weakening those builds is worth playing, in my opinion.
Continuing the powered vs unpowered+few artifacts argument:
The diminished number of artifacts significantly impact it's playability in NON-agro red decks, in agro red decks, it's a very minor decrease in power.
I'm not sure exactly how powerful 6 damage for 2RR will be, but my guess is that it's a curve topper that I would be very happy to play in any Agro red deck.
BUT, for red agro decks, powerful curve toppers are way over-satured, which significantly impacts it's value.
Hellrider, Hero of oxid ridge, Koth of the hammer, thundermaw hellkite, bloodbraid elf, sarkhan vol, falkenrath aristocrat, ajani vengeant all should take a main deck slot over this card in an agro red deck.. And there are a handful of 4-drops that are in the cube for their roll in multiple archetypes that come close.
Why I love this card for cubes with a lot of artifacts so much is that, it's a great (but slightly below par) agro curve topper AND has strong play-ability in midrange and control.
When you significantly take away the impact of the artifact destruction mode, you take away it's maindeckability in slower decks, so it becomes a slightly below par agro curve topper and a sideboard card.. Which as the initial statements stated "is nothing to get excited about" and "is nothing special". Which somehow got mistranslated to "awful", and "isn't very useful". Two very different statements.
Red is typically pretty light on flexible cards so something that can function in control and beatdown decks is worth looking at for sure. It would go in my cube.
Trying not to derail the thread but:
Having the option on cryptic command to half-sleep the whole team for a turn at instant speed and bounce a permanant is a huge part of what makes the card amazing.
Dismiss is a great card when the board is not threatening, but it's close to a dead card when you are being pressured (relatively common). Tapping the opponents team on defense while cantriping to find an answer is very solid. Tapping their whole team, to attack for lethal, while rare, can be the difference between a won and lost game. Bouncing a permanant has been relevant countless # of times too.
It's harder to cast for sure, but the other modes are way more than enough to make up for that. I've seen cryptic be cut from blue decks for it's cost, I've seen it be subpar because of mana, and I've seen decks been made worse to accomadate UUU, but many many more times have I seen the card (and all it's modes) be an A+ workhorse.
If the card was easier to cast, it might be a top 10 blue card, whereas dismiss doesn't make most mid sized cubes.
I proxied this card up last night and played a 1v1 round with a buddy. It was a beast. One game he blew up my sword, and dealt 2 damage to the field to kill both my bears and his Academy Rector so he could search up Purphoros.
I lost that game.
There was another game where I lost 2 artifacts and ate 2 damage, which was also a severe beating.
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I agree with you that it's nothing special in non-powered cubes that don't have many artifacts.
Sidenote of it's sickness against the artifact deck: This card can kill a myr battlesphere, it's tokens, and kill a mana rock in the process
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"Cryptic Command isn't that good. Would you run a 4-mana Counterspell? A 4-mana draw 1? A 4-mana Boomerang? A bad Sleep?"
This isn't Pyroclasm, it isn't Lava Axe, and it isn't Shatter. It is better than all three, and all three are things you'll regularly want at your disposal. When you need a Pyroclasm, you really need a Pyroclasm. When you want a Lava Axe, nothing is better. When you're looking for a Shatter, three for the price of two is more than enough.
I guess. The thing about Cryptic is that all 4 modes are things pretty much every blue deck wants. Countering is always good. Drawing a card is always good. Bouncing permanents is universally useful. Tapping creatures (the most conditional mode) has meaningful applications in many matches.
Fiery Confluence isn't quite that generically good. More than one shatter is very conditional. Throwing damage at your opponent's dome is fine but it might not be worth spending mana on depending on the game state. It's also worth mentioning I don't run walkers, so the value of dome burn is much lower in my meta. Dealing damage to all creatures is also very conditional. If I'm running an aggro deck, it's usually going to be a desperation play. I get the "whole being greater than the sum of the parts" thing. Not saying the card is bad at all. Just not completely sold is all.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
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Modern: Jund
I respectfully disagree.
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So do I. I saw a quote above about it not being good and decided to be a little silly. Like most I think the card is great. Thanks for being respectful though.
Modern: Jund
If you aren't running planes walkers, and only run a small handful of artifacts then it's a LOT harder to make this card consistent 2 or 3 for 1, which is a huge part of the appeal for non hyper Agro decks.
Cryptic is RARELY less than a 2 for 1 , which is a huge part of its power level. Also "counter target spell and draw card" is relevant almost all the time vs all decks. Pyroclasm/lava axe split is still pretty situational
With lots of artifacts lying around, it gives so many more situations where you can get an extra card of card advantage out of the card, which is huge.
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Don't know why you would quote me then paraphrase something different than what I said.
6 to the face for 2RR is "nothing special" and some unpowered cubes run a lot more artifacts than others, I was referring to an unpowered cube with few artifacts. It's a playable card in that unpowered cube but a low pick and nothing to get excited about. However, it's a solid midpick in a small powered cube for any deck playing red... And given its competition that's paying a lot of respect to the card.
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It's no cryptic but cyrptic is terrible in the development phase anyway.
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Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
In an aggro deck, doing 6 damage to a player for a single card is as good as a two-for-one. And unless you're playing no artifacts, the ability to kill swords and mana rocks and still dome them is a huge bonus when you can get it.
There are decks that this isn't great against, so it's not like Cryptic in that sense, but it is great probably against 70%+ of decks, and it fits into multiple archetypes. Anything that reduces red's over-saturation of dedicated aggro spells without weakening those builds is worth playing, in my opinion.
The diminished number of artifacts significantly impact it's playability in NON-agro red decks, in agro red decks, it's a very minor decrease in power.
I'm not sure exactly how powerful 6 damage for 2RR will be, but my guess is that it's a curve topper that I would be very happy to play in any Agro red deck.
BUT, for red agro decks, powerful curve toppers are way over-satured, which significantly impacts it's value.
Hellrider, Hero of oxid ridge, Koth of the hammer, thundermaw hellkite, bloodbraid elf, sarkhan vol, falkenrath aristocrat, ajani vengeant all should take a main deck slot over this card in an agro red deck.. And there are a handful of 4-drops that are in the cube for their roll in multiple archetypes that come close.
Why I love this card for cubes with a lot of artifacts so much is that, it's a great (but slightly below par) agro curve topper AND has strong play-ability in midrange and control.
When you significantly take away the impact of the artifact destruction mode, you take away it's maindeckability in slower decks, so it becomes a slightly below par agro curve topper and a sideboard card.. Which as the initial statements stated "is nothing to get excited about" and "is nothing special". Which somehow got mistranslated to "awful", and "isn't very useful". Two very different statements.
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Having the option on cryptic command to half-sleep the whole team for a turn at instant speed and bounce a permanant is a huge part of what makes the card amazing.
Dismiss is a great card when the board is not threatening, but it's close to a dead card when you are being pressured (relatively common). Tapping the opponents team on defense while cantriping to find an answer is very solid. Tapping their whole team, to attack for lethal, while rare, can be the difference between a won and lost game. Bouncing a permanant has been relevant countless # of times too.
It's harder to cast for sure, but the other modes are way more than enough to make up for that. I've seen cryptic be cut from blue decks for it's cost, I've seen it be subpar because of mana, and I've seen decks been made worse to accomadate UUU, but many many more times have I seen the card (and all it's modes) be an A+ workhorse.
If the card was easier to cast, it might be a top 10 blue card, whereas dismiss doesn't make most mid sized cubes.
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I lost that game.
There was another game where I lost 2 artifacts and ate 2 damage, which was also a severe beating.
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