Really? The first Kiora was the 4th best Simic card at best.
Eh, at one point people liked kiora, maybe it was when she first got spoiled. No simic cards have ever really been the bee's knees, I'm still waiting for a Dack Fayden or sorin, lord of innistrad or a kolaghan's command from the color combo.
Dack Fayden in my unpowered cube is always near last pick. When he does go off on a player running more than the average number of artifacts, he puts in good work. In my cube, no one respects or fears him in the draft portion until he actually hits play.
The jury is still out if I want to permanently swap out Kiora 1.0 for Kiora 2.0. Kiora 1.0 has been a good support card in my playgroup just nothing amazing. Sometimes she fogs one threat until the late game and other times she gets swarmed by tokens. I definitely don't think running both of them at the same time is a good idea especially since they're the same CMC so I probably will cut 1.0 to try the new Kiora.
This is a big winner in my book. She fits right into most UG decks we play and will make good things happen in ramp, control, midrange, and reanimator decks. IMHO clearly superior to Crashing Wave. Yay!
List of things Dack Fayden has stolen from me personally in two weekends while playing my 540 unpowered cube.
- Mox Diamond
- Grim Monolith
- Myr Battlesphere TWICE (once I stole with Bribery)
Dack Fayden is definitely a top-tier multicolored planeswalker that I feel belongs in all cubes in all sizes regardless if they're powered or not.
I forgot to mention that I took out the swords / clamp / jitte in my cube and Dack is STILL amazing.
Anyways, back to talking about Kiora... Simic has always been the hardest guild for me to evaluate because besides Edric, nothing else really seems to be an auto-include. I'm not running Kiora 1.0 and while I do think this new Kiora is better than the first, I'm probably not going to run this one either because I don't think it's more interesting / useful than the other useful Simic cards.
I move the Dack discussion to Dack's thread, as that's the more proper thread to discuss Dack's power level. If anyone want to see that discussion, it's in this thread here.
I like this Kiora better than most of you guys. She seems like she competes for the top Simic spot in unpowered cubes. She works really well with mana dorks, has good card advantage, and her ultimate is very sweet wrath. I see her as +1 Garruk Wildspeaker, -2 sweet card advantage, and her ultimate is basically Plague Wind + three 8/8s.
She isn't quite Kolaghan's Command or Dack Fayden power level but Simic isn't there yet and doesn't really need those effects since green and blue are already such a powerful color combo even without the gold cards.
I don't know what to think about that new Kiora. Overall, she's certainly more than fine. She ramps, draws gas and can win the game. The only problem that I've notice is that she don't protect herself great, a thing that her previous version could do pretty well. This one, unless you could manage to untap a dork and a land with it and then drop another creature to give you a board state, cannot manage to do it by her own. Her ultimate, while super sweet, is also one turn late on Kiora 1.0, making it a worst wincon. I might try it over First one but I don't have high expectation.
Maybe it could be a better card for my cube than Kiora's Follower but this one serves a particular role that can't be cut unless it gets replace by a similar one. Whit that saif, if Kiora 2.0 was able to untap permanent, it would be, whitout a doubt, an auto-include for me.
She can just untap a creature to defend herself with.
At first glance, this Kiora looks stronger than Crashing Wave. Not sure if she'll make the cut in our cube though, multi-colored cards always have to be *really* strong to secure a slot.
I like both the Kioras personally. The first one is a either a sort of removal spell attached to a 9/9 factory, or a rebound Explore. She's a perhaps a little underrated, and is pretty useful in most game states in my experience. I'm not quite sure how to rate this one at first glance. It's clearly more proactive (rather than reactive) in terms of untapping your stuff, which could help protect it while ramping a small amount, which is definitely a good [+1]. The [-2] is effective card advantage and allows for GY interactions. The ultimate is flavourful and fun. I think the card is pretty pushed, in fact, since shown these abilities I may have predicted the middle one to be [-3]; drawing two cards off it is not going to be that uncommon.
It's possible that we give this a shot and run the two Kioras, Edric and the new land, to mix things up a bit in Simic. U/G is a colour that can work wonder with good PWs, ramping into them and protecting them with countermagic while they generate a win condition. Original Kiora is perfect in that role. Problem is, we do lke Trygon and Sagu Mauler quite a lot as well.
I think she'll be pretty good. If you've got elves, her +1 mirrors Garruk Wildspeaker, and she has a fair opportunity for card advantage if you can protect her. Both abilities want you to play a lot of land and creatures; my UG decks tend to be heavy on both anyhow (I'm thinking Opposition, Pod), so I think it's a solid fit.
I wish this was untap two permanents and then I think it it might be a lock. People always discount ultimates but in my experience the ultimate is really what makes the first Kiora so good. Often dropping it on turn 3 and getting 3 fogs is super easy. The ultimate on this is no joke but the extra turn and what I believe is a weaker way of protection herself will make this Kiora less good for controlling decks.
I wish this was untap two permanents and then I think it it might be a lock. People always discount ultimates but in my experience the ultimate is really what makes the first Kiora so good. Often dropping it on turn 3 and getting 3 fogs is super easy. The ultimate on this is no joke but the extra turn and what I believe is a weaker way of protection herself will make this Kiora less good for controlling decks.
Yeah, you are right, kiora 2.0 goes in less decks than 1.0, but I think her upside compensates for it.
Kiora 2.0 isn't worth splashing in control decks, needs plenty of creatures to be good and cannot be run with too many other durdly cards, since she can't protect herself or set the board to par.
She's only remotely useful at coming from behind if she can survive to ramp into something that stabalizes. (Thragtusk, dragonlord atarka, hornet queen, wurmcoil engine etc)
However, if you are ahead or at par ... Ppfffff....
Unless I'm forgetting a card, the -2 is the best card draw we've seen on a 4 mana planeswalker to date. In a ramp deck, it's approximately equal to draw 2 cards (you'll whif occasionally, but graveyard interactions + digging 4 deep offsets that).
Even a common scenario of -2ing and eating a removal spell is a 3 for 1.
A non-rare scenario of -2, +1 (cast the things you drew), -2.
Gets you +4 cards, mana, and a planeswalker that needs to be dealt with. It's not as game ending as kiora's ultimate, but the value generated is immediate and huge.
If Kiora 1.0 tries to tick up to ultimate vs a reactive deck , she has 3 draw steps to get answered and it's at best a 1 for 1. If she tries to tick down, she generates value very slowly.
I've never had kiora, the crashing wave ultimate in cube, in which I hadn't already won the game and slow played for fun. The starting loyalty honestly makes me feel like kiora, master of the sea might ultimate MORE than the crashing wave, because the crashing wave gets killed by random tokens or a burn spell almost every time.
I like this better than Kiora 1.0. The +1 ability can generate a lot of mana with a creature like Rofellos, or can just untap a dork who can block for Kiora. And the ultimate is bonkers. I'm currently running Kiora 1.0 in my Simic section but she's the 5th-best card of the 5. This looks like an upgrade.
I'm going to give her a try... I don't want both Kioras, and there isn't anything I'm eager to cut in my Simic section (which is currently Kiora 1.0, Edric, Mystic Snakee, Sagu Mauler, and Shardless Agent, but I'd at least like to see which of her versions play out better.
The big draw to Kiora 2.0 for me is that her WCS is incredibly low. Even if you have no protection for her, cashing her in for a Sudden Reclamation and a bit of virtual lifegain is far from embarrassing. And when she's allowed to stick, she just runs wild by netting you amazing amounts of card advantage and the mana to make use of it. Really excited to get some testing in with her soon.
I am currently running a lot of gold cards. I run 4 from each guild and for the Simic portion, it will likely flesh out to the following:
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Mystic Snake
Kiora, Master of the Depths
Edric, Spymaster of Trest and Kiora, the Crashing Wave are probably my top 2 picks for Simic with Trygon Predator being very easy to remove. I used to think the Predator was a really good card, and it is in many ways - however it overlaps with other cards you can slot in for those effects and I am not a fan of slotting it into the Gold sections where most of the cube tech resides.
I am also weird though, and I do not include cards like Celestial Colonnade in my gold section, which means I will be adjusting my lands section to fit in some of the new man lands. I currently only run some of the man lands that are from the original Zendikar block.
I know most people here like Mystic Snake but I like old Kiora much more. Regarding new Kiora I'm on board with the pros mentioned in this thread. 4 loyalty is pretty good too considering. I'd like to test her out.
Again a planeswalker that I find difficult to evaluate in theory. I also have seen Kiora 1 ultimate rather often compared to other walkers and take that into account when evaluating her (and with most other walkers, I don't care about the ulti'). But Kiora 2 has more starting loyality and a very strong draw effect. I'm just worried about her not protecting herself. Untapping a creature doesn't really protect her much, it's more like vigilance in that it allows you to attack with a creature that you would have otherwise kept to block.
I've never had kiora, the crashing wave ultimate in cube, in which I hadn't already won the game and slow played for fun. The starting loyalty honestly makes me feel like kiora, master of the sea might ultimate MORE than the crashing wave, because the crashing wave gets killed by random tokens or a burn spell almost every time.
That doesn't match my experience with Kiora, the Crashing Wave at all. In my cube, she is one of the planeswalkers with the most important and most dominant ultimate. Not only is it a strong win-condition, but it is also faster to reach than pretty much all other equally strong ultimates. And attempting to reach it protects her, making it more likely that you reach it. Sure, if the opponent has a direct removal spell, she won't get to ultimate. But it is really, really hard to prevent her from reaching it with creature attacks alone. Your opponent basically needs two more creatures than you have. And even if he kills her with creatures, it usually means that he had to concentrate on this task for multiple turns, meaning you had time to do other stuff. That's what I mean by "dominant": Even if Kiora I doesn't reach her ultimate, simply the threat of it has severely warped the game for multiple turns. And she does reach it quite often in my experience. There will be 9/9 Krakens on the table if she was in the draft.
This is actually my main problem with her: The second ability is nothing but a situational afterthought, because ramping her towards a quick ultimate is so strong. This makes her rather one-dimensional. For this reason alone, I might switch her for Kiora, Master of the Depths. They seem roughly on the same power level, but with Kiora II, both her + and her - ability will see play and her ultimate is harder to reach. Plus, I've recently cut Jace, Architect of Thought and Kiora II's - ability will fill a similar role to Jace's.
I'm just worried about her not protecting herself. Untapping a creature doesn't really protect her much, it's more like vigilance in that it allows you to attack with a creature that you would have otherwise kept to block.
Sure, she can't protect herself as well as Kiora I does, but even if you have no creature to untap, you can pass your turn with her at 5 loyalty after having effectively paid only 1GU for her. That is a rather beefy loyalty to cost count.
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Dack Fayden in my unpowered cube is always near last pick. When he does go off on a player running more than the average number of artifacts, he puts in good work. In my cube, no one respects or fears him in the draft portion until he actually hits play.
The jury is still out if I want to permanently swap out Kiora 1.0 for Kiora 2.0. Kiora 1.0 has been a good support card in my playgroup just nothing amazing. Sometimes she fogs one threat until the late game and other times she gets swarmed by tokens. I definitely don't think running both of them at the same time is a good idea especially since they're the same CMC so I probably will cut 1.0 to try the new Kiora.
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I forgot to mention that I took out the swords / clamp / jitte in my cube and Dack is STILL amazing.
Anyways, back to talking about Kiora... Simic has always been the hardest guild for me to evaluate because besides Edric, nothing else really seems to be an auto-include. I'm not running Kiora 1.0 and while I do think this new Kiora is better than the first, I'm probably not going to run this one either because I don't think it's more interesting / useful than the other useful Simic cards.
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She isn't quite Kolaghan's Command or Dack Fayden power level but Simic isn't there yet and doesn't really need those effects since green and blue are already such a powerful color combo even without the gold cards.
Maybe it could be a better card for my cube than Kiora's Follower but this one serves a particular role that can't be cut unless it gets replace by a similar one. Whit that saif, if Kiora 2.0 was able to untap permanent, it would be, whitout a doubt, an auto-include for me.
And awesome art BTW.
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At first glance, this Kiora looks stronger than Crashing Wave. Not sure if she'll make the cut in our cube though, multi-colored cards always have to be *really* strong to secure a slot.
It's possible that we give this a shot and run the two Kioras, Edric and the new land, to mix things up a bit in Simic. U/G is a colour that can work wonder with good PWs, ramping into them and protecting them with countermagic while they generate a win condition. Original Kiora is perfect in that role. Problem is, we do lke Trygon and Sagu Mauler quite a lot as well.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
You may have sold me Blue
How are you untapping Pod with this?
Yeah, you are right, kiora 2.0 goes in less decks than 1.0, but I think her upside compensates for it.
Kiora 2.0 isn't worth splashing in control decks, needs plenty of creatures to be good and cannot be run with too many other durdly cards, since she can't protect herself or set the board to par.
She's only remotely useful at coming from behind if she can survive to ramp into something that stabalizes. (Thragtusk, dragonlord atarka, hornet queen, wurmcoil engine etc)
However, if you are ahead or at par ... Ppfffff....
Unless I'm forgetting a card, the -2 is the best card draw we've seen on a 4 mana planeswalker to date. In a ramp deck, it's approximately equal to draw 2 cards (you'll whif occasionally, but graveyard interactions + digging 4 deep offsets that).
Even a common scenario of -2ing and eating a removal spell is a 3 for 1.
A non-rare scenario of -2, +1 (cast the things you drew), -2.
Gets you +4 cards, mana, and a planeswalker that needs to be dealt with. It's not as game ending as kiora's ultimate, but the value generated is immediate and huge.
If Kiora 1.0 tries to tick up to ultimate vs a reactive deck , she has 3 draw steps to get answered and it's at best a 1 for 1. If she tries to tick down, she generates value very slowly.
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Edric, Spymaster of Trest and Kiora, the Crashing Wave are probably my top 2 picks for Simic with Trygon Predator being very easy to remove. I used to think the Predator was a really good card, and it is in many ways - however it overlaps with other cards you can slot in for those effects and I am not a fan of slotting it into the Gold sections where most of the cube tech resides.
I am also weird though, and I do not include cards like Celestial Colonnade in my gold section, which means I will be adjusting my lands section to fit in some of the new man lands. I currently only run some of the man lands that are from the original Zendikar block.
This is actually my main problem with her: The second ability is nothing but a situational afterthought, because ramping her towards a quick ultimate is so strong. This makes her rather one-dimensional. For this reason alone, I might switch her for Kiora, Master of the Depths. They seem roughly on the same power level, but with Kiora II, both her + and her - ability will see play and her ultimate is harder to reach. Plus, I've recently cut Jace, Architect of Thought and Kiora II's - ability will fill a similar role to Jace's.
Sure, she can't protect herself as well as Kiora I does, but even if you have no creature to untap, you can pass your turn with her at 5 loyalty after having effectively paid only 1GU for her. That is a rather beefy loyalty to cost count.
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