WCS of glory seeker is pretty bad. If it connects then it is one of the best creatures in the cube. I think at some point WTWLF was saying the average for pain seer was drawing one card, and this guy is the same as pain seer. I've come around to it.
Well if you're forced to trade it away in combat, things could be worse. At least it was only a 2-mana investment. But if you connect, getting a 3/3 and tutoring up a piece of equipment is pretty savage for 1W.
Stoneforge Mystic it aint, but I'm guessing we won't see an equipment enabler on that power level for a long time.
In a vacuum, Relic Hunter isn't particularly powerful. Stoneforge Mystic cuts the requirements in half by just giving you the card and the flexibility to work it through countermagic. This requires a clear path in combat, no removal from the opponent, and a piece or two worth searching for -- the latter being a defining characteristic that makes it much less flexible than Pain seer. Might not be worth it in the average cube, though a cube with an equipment subtheme would welcome it.
If you have Stoneforge but don't get any equipment you wouldn't play the Stoneforge. But you might actually still play this guy; not just because you could get him to 3/3 but because your opponent doesn't know you don't have the equipment like they do with Stoneforge. So you can use him to force opp to hold back a blocker or bait removal. And if you do connect you might be able to bluff that you already drew the Batterskull and are waiting on mana or some such.
So in that sense he has a better floor but to me the question is do you want two white 2-drops in your cube with a floor that low?
Between countermagic and removal, ensuring that your two drops can get through at least once shouldn't be too much of a challenge. If you can do that, this one represents exceptional value. One of the metrics I like to consider for evaluating cheap creatures like this is how much of a priority its death would be to me, if I'm the other player. In this instance, I would be extremely hesitant to let it live with just one available blocker. It's unfortunate that it only hits for 2 on the first swing through, but it's potentially coming in for a lot the next turn with counter and whatever gets searched up.
Equipment is often the go-to search target for tutor effects on aggressive decks, so anything that can reliably get those into your hand (especially whilst providing a body to stick it to) is very welcome, even if that can mean redundancy where you have the would-be target in hand on the odd occasion - just as with cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Aether Searcher.
The more I think on this card, the more I am certain that I will definitely include it. Another aggressive and splashable white two-drop was needed, and this also contributes to a potential white splash in those U/R artifact decks. The relevant creature type, nice art and superb flavour are all a plus in its favour as well.
1. Requires equipment to be playable, thus too narrow
-I would never play relic hunter without equipment, yes, but I believe it's playable with only one piece of equipment. Putting it into playable range is really not that hard. 75%+ of my white decks have at least 1 piece of equipment.
Unlike stoneforge mystic, I actually think relic hunter is BETTER than stoneforge if you only have one piece of equipment that isn't premium. She's not exciting for sure, but she makes for playable curve filler in more agressive oriented decks.
The only thing you need to be careful of is if you have too many conditional 2 drop creatures so you can still support agro. However, the conditionality of relic hunter on equipment is partially mitigated by the fact she is playable in good stuff decks with premium equipment. The same cannot be said for many other white two drops.
2. Not a good top deck
-Id argue shes definitely at her best on curve, but shes not like some of the other extreme examples that REALLY need to come down early in all situations (Champion of the perish, experiment one etc). How poor of a top deck she is, is highly deck dependent.
In a deck built to push a little longer than all-in, I wouldn't mind dropping her on turn 4-5. The value she can generate at that point is still significant in the right deck, and doesn't take many turns to accomplish.
I am not feeling this card. Quite often it will be just a 2/2 bear. I can see myself wishing it just had flying or first strike. This is white we are talking about, not known for having weak 2CC cards.
Sure if it hits it is great, but what if it doesn't. It blocks like a bear, it attacks into blockers like a bear. I love me some bears in Limited, but in Cube? Not so much.
The Pain Seer comparison is spot on (although this card is quite a bit better).
A 2cc bear that threatens so much more.
Even when she doesn't connect, she forces your opponents to play around cards you COULD have , in fear of the upside of you connecting.
This forces them to play bad some of the time, and gets you value.
I think people are confusing the median case scenario with the "average performance". Maybe the median case scenario is a bear that makes your opponent play slightly bad. But the upside is so far above par for 2 drop that you don't have to connect 50%+ of the time for it to be worth it.
We are playing in a format with skullclamp, jitte, batterskull, sword of fire and ice and a high concentration of good equipment...
"+1/+1 counter and Search your deck for Broken equipment card catered to the matchup" im guessing is better than draw 2 cards on average.
A 2cc bear that threatens so much more.
Even when she doesn't connect, she forces your opponents to play around cards you COULD have , in fear of the upside of you connecting.
This forces them to play bad some of the time, and gets you value.
Part of the problem with this line of thinking is that there's so, so few combat tricks in cube. If my opponent attacks with this into an x/2, I am almost always snap blocking.
That being, said, it's a 2/2 for two that has the potential for huge upside. Certainly testable. Also human, for what it's worth.
That is true, it's more a question of removal in cube
"should I remove this now or play a blocker that they can potentially remove" "Should I leave 1 , 2 or 3 blockers back on defense".
Should I attack with my 3/3 flier? I have the ground locked up, but what if he has ajani, caller of pride? I know its in his deck etc.
A 2cc bear that threatens so much more.
Even when she doesn't connect, she forces your opponents to play around cards you COULD have , in fear of the upside of you connecting.
This forces them to play bad some of the time, and gets you value.
Part of the problem with this line of thinking is that there's so, so few combat tricks in cube. If my opponent attacks with this into an x/2, I am almost always snap blocking.
That being, said, it's a 2/2 for two that has the potential for huge upside. Certainly testable. Also human, for what it's worth.
Mutagenic growth is a cool one. My group keeps trying to get me to take out contagion, but its a great combat trick and I keep winning games with it in our cube drafts.
People should remember that Stoneforge was hardly considered a slam-dunk staple when *it* was spoiled, and how innocuous that card being spoiled was for a number of reasons. It has a particulary interesting history among cube staples of being universally pretty much ignored. Back then we did all our spoiling discussion on a single long thread. I was, as far as I can tell, the first to bring the card up at all in that thread, and even then I underestimated the usefulness of the tap ability:
Quote from Me in 2010 »
I'm thinking that Stoneforge Mystic might be a decent Cube card. Tutors are great in the Cube, and think of it as a 1/2 cantripping creature for 1W that cantrips into something guaranteed to be relevant to aggro. It's a bargain really. I can't see the tap ability being important often, but could be useful as a way of keeping mana open for burn/combat tricks during opponents' turns and then dropping your Jitte or SoFaI on the sly at EOT.
In fact it got spoiled around the same day as Stone Idol Trap and Summoning Trap, which were considered a lot more exciting (I went to proxy them up myself, and the green trap was pretty good!), so SFM almost passed under the radar until a bit later. Of course, equipment ratios were slightly lower back then (before Batterskull and SoM block Swords) which made his apparent power that much lower, as summed up by wtwlf:
The problem that I see with Stoneforge Mystic is that you may not have enough equipment in the cube itself to make him viable. I only use 7 pieces out of 500 cards, which makes the value of an "equipment tutor" pretty low (for me anyways). In a 360 card cube with 12-15 equipment cards, he'll be a lot better, IMO.
Aside from all these factors, and there was a huge Absorb argument derailing the whole thread, which of course there was, this being 2010.
Anyway, not saying this is on a level with Stoneforge Mystic, but all the inevitable talk surrounding the latter brought this to mind. I think this card is being underrated (quite a bit, in fact) even though at least we're talking about it this time around.
I thought for sure this card would be unanimously accepted by everyone -- even just to try out. Seems like it can slot in easily over guys like Lone Missionary or Cloistered Youth based on power/upside. Hitting a player shouldn't be that hard considering Geist and Rabblemaster bash face a lot.
I will test this out for sure, hard to quantify how good it will be without testing. I wouldn't put this into my deck without any targets, but even only one would be enough. Usually the kind of decks that would want this card, will be the most happy to tutor for an equipment.
I am not feeling this card. Quite often it will be just a 2/2 bear. I can see myself wishing it just had flying or first strike. This is white we are talking about, not known for having weak 2CC cards.
Sure if it hits it is great, but what if it doesn't. It blocks like a bear, it attacks into blockers like a bear. I love me some bears in Limited, but in Cube? Not so much.
The Pain Seer comparison is spot on (although this card is quite a bit better).
I will have to disagree alot here. I consider white 2 CMC one of the places I expect the most improvement in. The creature power creep over the last couple of years has caused almost all other colors and casting costs to get get better but all we have been able to do with white 2 drops is move away for WW. Everyone is basically bear with upside, even my 2 favorite Stoneforge and Thalia have the battle prowess of a modern one drop. Until we start getting 3/3s or at least 3/1 first strike we are pretty much stuck with bears or arc lightning bait. Which has caused equipment to be even more valuable.
At first I was like "did he really go back and look at all the spoiler threads? Or did he just remember?" Then I looked at the expansions symbols. lol.
The more I think about it, the more I like this card. Hardb0dy makes an excellent point; Geist of St. Traft and Goblin Rabblemaster connect all the time, and they don't have any combat stats. In addition, they both cost more than Relic Hunter! They opponent almost have to have a response to it or risk you tutoring up something like a Sword or Jitte, while needing to deal with a 3/3 to boot.
And 3/3 isn't exactly small in cube. If anyone here tested Beast Within before, they should know from experiences that 3/3 isn't exactly that small in cube.
If you are not playing with Stoneforge Mystic does Relic Hunter work as a good replacement card? I have been trying to reduce the amount of white drops I have that require 2 white mana like Precinct Captain and figure I could replace one of the Soltari Cards with the Relic Hunter. This seems a lot like Pain Seer where it can be a good card if you are able to deal damage to opponent with it.
Stoneforge Mystic is definitely better than this, but I'm planning on trying it out in addition to SFM, so I don't see any reason not to try it as a budget replacement if that's what you're after.
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No, good catch, I had to go back and check. There was indeed a different mediocre green card which was the correct spoiler grabbing much attention - Wolfbriar Elemental. 4/4's for 2GG with upside weren't in abundance then so it was praiseworthy enough.
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In a vacuum, Relic Hunter isn't particularly powerful. Stoneforge Mystic cuts the requirements in half by just giving you the card and the flexibility to work it through countermagic. This requires a clear path in combat, no removal from the opponent, and a piece or two worth searching for -- the latter being a defining characteristic that makes it much less flexible than Pain seer. Might not be worth it in the average cube, though a cube with an equipment subtheme would welcome it.
So in that sense he has a better floor but to me the question is do you want two white 2-drops in your cube with a floor that low?
Equipment is often the go-to search target for tutor effects on aggressive decks, so anything that can reliably get those into your hand (especially whilst providing a body to stick it to) is very welcome, even if that can mean redundancy where you have the would-be target in hand on the odd occasion - just as with cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Aether Searcher.
The more I think on this card, the more I am certain that I will definitely include it. Another aggressive and splashable white two-drop was needed, and this also contributes to a potential white splash in those U/R artifact decks. The relevant creature type, nice art and superb flavour are all a plus in its favour as well.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
1. Requires equipment to be playable, thus too narrow
-I would never play relic hunter without equipment, yes, but I believe it's playable with only one piece of equipment. Putting it into playable range is really not that hard. 75%+ of my white decks have at least 1 piece of equipment.
Unlike stoneforge mystic, I actually think relic hunter is BETTER than stoneforge if you only have one piece of equipment that isn't premium. She's not exciting for sure, but she makes for playable curve filler in more agressive oriented decks.
The only thing you need to be careful of is if you have too many conditional 2 drop creatures so you can still support agro. However, the conditionality of relic hunter on equipment is partially mitigated by the fact she is playable in good stuff decks with premium equipment. The same cannot be said for many other white two drops.
2. Not a good top deck
-Id argue shes definitely at her best on curve, but shes not like some of the other extreme examples that REALLY need to come down early in all situations (Champion of the perish, experiment one etc). How poor of a top deck she is, is highly deck dependent.
In a deck built to push a little longer than all-in, I wouldn't mind dropping her on turn 4-5. The value she can generate at that point is still significant in the right deck, and doesn't take many turns to accomplish.
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Sure if it hits it is great, but what if it doesn't. It blocks like a bear, it attacks into blockers like a bear. I love me some bears in Limited, but in Cube? Not so much.
The Pain Seer comparison is spot on (although this card is quite a bit better).
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Even when she doesn't connect, she forces your opponents to play around cards you COULD have , in fear of the upside of you connecting.
This forces them to play bad some of the time, and gets you value.
I think people are confusing the median case scenario with the "average performance". Maybe the median case scenario is a bear that makes your opponent play slightly bad. But the upside is so far above par for 2 drop that you don't have to connect 50%+ of the time for it to be worth it.
We are playing in a format with skullclamp, jitte, batterskull, sword of fire and ice and a high concentration of good equipment...
"+1/+1 counter and Search your deck for Broken equipment card catered to the matchup" im guessing is better than draw 2 cards on average.
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Part of the problem with this line of thinking is that there's so, so few combat tricks in cube. If my opponent attacks with this into an x/2, I am almost always snap blocking.
That being, said, it's a 2/2 for two that has the potential for huge upside. Certainly testable. Also human, for what it's worth.
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"should I remove this now or play a blocker that they can potentially remove" "Should I leave 1 , 2 or 3 blockers back on defense".
Should I attack with my 3/3 flier? I have the ground locked up, but what if he has ajani, caller of pride? I know its in his deck etc.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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Mutagenic growth is a cool one. My group keeps trying to get me to take out contagion, but its a great combat trick and I keep winning games with it in our cube drafts.
thats my cube
In fact it got spoiled around the same day as Stone Idol Trap and Summoning Trap, which were considered a lot more exciting (I went to proxy them up myself, and the green trap was pretty good!), so SFM almost passed under the radar until a bit later. Of course, equipment ratios were slightly lower back then (before Batterskull and SoM block Swords) which made his apparent power that much lower, as summed up by wtwlf:
Aside from all these factors, and there was a huge Absorb argument derailing the whole thread, which of course there was, this being 2010.
Anyway, not saying this is on a level with Stoneforge Mystic, but all the inevitable talk surrounding the latter brought this to mind. I think this card is being underrated (quite a bit, in fact) even though at least we're talking about it this time around.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I will have to disagree alot here. I consider white 2 CMC one of the places I expect the most improvement in. The creature power creep over the last couple of years has caused almost all other colors and casting costs to get get better but all we have been able to do with white 2 drops is move away for WW. Everyone is basically bear with upside, even my 2 favorite Stoneforge and Thalia have the battle prowess of a modern one drop. Until we start getting 3/3s or at least 3/1 first strike we are pretty much stuck with bears or arc lightning bait. Which has caused equipment to be even more valuable.
At first I was like "did he really go back and look at all the spoiler threads? Or did he just remember?" Then I looked at the expansions symbols. lol.
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No, good catch, I had to go back and check. There was indeed a different mediocre green card which was the correct spoiler grabbing much attention - Wolfbriar Elemental. 4/4's for 2GG with upside weren't in abundance then so it was praiseworthy enough.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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