Well I run those effects too, but there's definitely more creature- and artifact-based ramp than there is land-based ramp. Like I said, hitting 7 lands is a lot. When you can play her and flip her right away with your new land, she's going to be a stellar card. But in other situations, she's just a worse Borderland Ranger. That's not the worst floor in the world, but it's not particularly great either.
Makes me wonder how much Sarkhan Unbroken should cost if he was mono green.
Thats the closest parallel to her walker side: +1 draw, -2 4/4, ult you'll never use etc.
I don't think 7 lands specifically was where I thought I'd land on that answer.
I think this is a much better card than the others (except for Gideon of couse), because her non-flipped side is the best.
I don't agree at all, for several reasons.
First, even by your narrow evaluation metric, I'd absolutely rather have an 0/2 Merfolk Looter than a Borderland Ranger that can't fix your mana. And green is really good at ramping, and black has a ton of self-damage effects; an argument could be made that even a really bad Vampire Nighthawk might be more valuable for black than a bad Civic Wayfinder is for green.
Second, none of the cards can be properly evaluated by pretending that they aren't also planeswalkers. Balancing the creature quality vs the ease of transformation vs the quality of the 'walker is the only way to do it. And when all the factors are considered, this one is absolutely worse than Gideon, Jace and Liliana.
The 3 slot for creatures is actually pretty weak in green. After making an effort to be conscious of it, I find myself at 7 lands more often than I thought I did. I think I'm actually going to proxy up and test this, the other 4 are at least debatably cubable, and WotC wouldn't just be a jerk to green for no reason, right?
Green's shallowness at the 3cc creature slot makes me want to rank this ahead of Chandra in terms of which card is better for the cube, and I think this is better than it looks, but I'm still skeptical about inclusion in small-medium sized cubes.
Now that all five are spoiled, I definitely think Nissa is the worst and I don't think it's close at all. Her frontside being so mediocre and her flip condition being so difficult to reach makes her quite terrible, imo. Chandra can at least output some damage and has potential to flip the turn after you play her, even on curve.
Green's shallowness at green makes me want to rank this ahead of Chandra in terms of which card is better for the cube, and I think this is better than it looks, but I'm still skeptical about inclusion in small-medium sized cubes.
3?
I wasn't saying she was a homerun, or even top half of green. I'm just saying I'm going to actually physically test her, because she probably plays better than she looks, probably not much, but still.
Was thinking more about it , and maintain my stance for her being underpowered for small-medium powered cubes,
but think she's a clear include for bigger unpowered cubes.
Borderland ranger becomes much closer to cubeable for the non-flip side, the tier 2 ramp cards are more of farseek/explosive vegetation style which means she's more likely to flip.. AND games go longer because the card power is lower, so again, more likely she'll flip (more midrange slug fests).
All that combines into a pretty solid card (bottom 25%ile, but very playable). I expect her to see play in standard too fwiw, since games are much grindier than cube and many decks that are grindy might want a civic wayfinder.
I am probably going to include only the three first ones, because the power drops significantly after that. Nissa might still have a chance, because the amount of green 3-drops that don't cost double green mana is very low. It really pisses me off that she can't search for dual lands though. Why the hell did they put the word "basic" there!?
I am probably going to include only the three first ones, because the power drops significantly after that. Nissa might still have a chance, because the amount of green 3-drops that don't cost double green mana is very low. It really pisses me off that she can't search for dual lands though. Why the hell did they put the word "basic" there!?
Basic is something I would totally expect from wizards on these type of cards. But most of these type of cards are common. This is a #*!?ing legendary planeswalker who is a major figure in magic history and this is the origin card. It absolutely needed to loose the basic part. I also feel they could have let you put the land onto the battlefield tapped and it wouldn't have been too much for the card or for standard. Farseek didn't break standard and the shocks were in it then. There are not Forest duals in standard and I don't expect any in the next 18 months.
I find it interesting to compare these to what I would expect from just the front side.
Nisaa = Borderland Ranger Common
Liliana ~ Xathrid Necormancer Rare
Jace ~ Merfolf Looter, Sigled Starfish Common
Gideon ~ Dragon Hunter, Soldier of the Pantheon Uncommon to Rare
Chandra ~ Gelectrode Uncommon
So the only one that is moddled off of a common is Jace who has a spectacularly easy flip. Nissa has to be better than it looks......hrmmmmm
Seems to me that they made Nissa and Chandra really good in specific decks (land ramp and RDW) and probably limited their power level so they wouldn't be OP in those decks. Unfortunately the result is two planeswalkers with limited appeal. Is there any chance at this point the the black foil promos are fake?
Yes but looter is a good common and borderline ranger is a bad common.
Probably a closer parallel for chandra is guttersnipe, but he's still uncommon so woo
In what universe is borderland ranger a bad common? Civic Wayfinder was a 4 of, and extremely important card in a pro-tour winning deck that was legal when full powered standard faeries was legal.
People are seriously underestimating this card. A 2/2 that draws you a card and ensures you hit land drops is a fine playable in pretty much every green deck in cube. It smooths your draws, helps with mulligans, holds equipment, and provides an early, relevant road block. In this one, you're trading the ability to fix your mana, for the rather enormous upside of becoming a planeswalker if you hit 7 lands.
Cards that are good in both early in the game and the late gaem are often much better than they appear at first glance.
Borderland Ranger/Civic Wayfinder are both fine commons. But they don't see much cube play. Green has great ramp cards that provide card advantage at the 3-mana slot, that also fix your mana (which is a critical part of the evaluation for Ranger and Wayfinder). The 'walker is good if you can reach 7 lands reliably and quickly, and I agree that she's likely better than she looks. But we have to see how often she can flip in the average green deck. I've been tracking my 7-land board states in green since she's been spoiled, and they're few and far between. And that's with running the better green 3cc cards that help secure lands. I don't know if she's gonna get flipped often enough to justify using a worse Borderland Ranger in a tight powered cube. 7 mana is already a goal that ramp decks strive to reach. 7 lands is a much harder thing to do.
Borderland Ranger/Civic Wayfinder are both fine commons. But they don't see much cube play. Green has great ramp cards that provide card advantage at the 3-mana slot, that also fix your mana (which is a critical part of the evaluation for Ranger and Wayfinder). The 'walker is good if you can reach 7 lands reliably and quickly, and I agree that she's likely better than she looks. But we have to see how often she can flip in the average green deck. I've been tracking my 7-land board states in green since she's been spoiled, and they're few and far between. And that's with running the better green 3cc cards that help secure lands. I don't know if she's gonna get flipped often enough to justify using a worse Borderland Ranger in a tight powered cube. 7 mana is already a goal that ramp decks strive to reach. 7 lands is a much harder thing to do.
Again, it's the combination of the two that is important. I've always loved Phyrexian Rager/ Borderland Ranger in my cube decks, as they are card advantage spells that also affect the board on turn 3. They hold a stick as well as anything, and the body is a real thing against the aggressive decks. Against more controlling decks, the card advantage plus a body is very relevant. Obviously a card like this is at it's worst against a deck doing something completely broken, but lots of cards aren't very exciting in those situations.
Ramp decks often have huge issues with flooding and mulligans, and this card helps in both cases. This is just a kind of glue card, that won't enable your most explosive draws, but will just allow you more consistency from game to game.
I don't disagree. I think she's going to provide solid value on average, and those cards are reasonable value plays on their own. I just need to see her actually transform with some kind of regularity in order to justify a slot for her, and I don't know that I can.
I don't disagree. I think she's going to provide solid value on average, and those cards are reasonable value plays on their own. I just need to see her actually transform with some kind of regularity in order to justify a slot for her, and I don't know that I can.
This pretty much all the way for me. Even if she was 6 lands, or could just fix, she would be so much better. I'm guessing her power was trimmed for constructive reasons (as she does seem like the design that could be best in constructed, if not at her current power level) and cube players suffered for it.
People are seriously underestimating this card. A 2/2 that draws you a card and ensures you hit land drops is a fine playable in pretty much every green deck in cube. It smooths your draws, helps with mulligans, holds equipment, and provides an early, relevant road block. In this one, you're trading the ability to fix your mana, for the rather enormous upside of becoming a planeswalker if you hit 7 lands.
Cards that are good in both early in the game and the late gaem are often much better than they appear at first glance.
I've thought about Nissa (and Chandra) more and the more I consider her the more I agree. It's true a 2/2 body for 2G that fetches a basic forest is mediocre, but I'm convinced enough of her upside to at least give her a shot. She is a bit narrow considering not every deck can reliably hit 7 lands, but she's fantastic value for those decks that can. Early in the game she can help make sure you hit your land drops, trades with aggressive creatures and is a 2-power body against slower decks. Late game she provides gas that green decks otherwise don't have, which certainly helps midrange/value/ramp decks sustain pressure vs control.
It is a bummer that her starting loyalty is stupid low, but I like her upside a lot so I'll be making room to try her out myself.
I don't disagree. I think she's going to provide solid value on average, and those cards are reasonable value plays on their own. I just need to see her actually transform with some kind of regularity in order to justify a slot for her, and I don't know that I can.
This accurately sums exactly where I'm at with the card too. It helps that these effects are never really dead, and that she replaces herself immediately in terms of card advantage... but she's just really sub-par so often and in so many decks, as good as the flip is. I'll think I'll let others do the testing on this one.
The word "basic" should never have been print on this card. A 4th loyalty would also have been more than welcome. Those 2 little changes would have made the card at least testable.
The word "basic" should never have been print on this card. A 4th loyalty would also have been more than welcome. Those 2 little changes would have made the card at least testable.
Agreed. The ability to search for Forest duals or even just any basic land would've improved this so much. For me this is easily the worst of the bunch.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Bummer.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Thats the closest parallel to her walker side: +1 draw, -2 4/4, ult you'll never use etc.
I don't think 7 lands specifically was where I thought I'd land on that answer.
I don't agree at all, for several reasons.
First, even by your narrow evaluation metric, I'd absolutely rather have an 0/2 Merfolk Looter than a Borderland Ranger that can't fix your mana. And green is really good at ramping, and black has a ton of self-damage effects; an argument could be made that even a really bad Vampire Nighthawk might be more valuable for black than a bad Civic Wayfinder is for green.
Second, none of the cards can be properly evaluated by pretending that they aren't also planeswalkers. Balancing the creature quality vs the ease of transformation vs the quality of the 'walker is the only way to do it. And when all the factors are considered, this one is absolutely worse than Gideon, Jace and Liliana.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
thats my cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
3?
I wasn't saying she was a homerun, or even top half of green. I'm just saying I'm going to actually physically test her, because she probably plays better than she looks, probably not much, but still.
thats my cube
but think she's a clear include for bigger unpowered cubes.
Borderland ranger becomes much closer to cubeable for the non-flip side, the tier 2 ramp cards are more of farseek/explosive vegetation style which means she's more likely to flip.. AND games go longer because the card power is lower, so again, more likely she'll flip (more midrange slug fests).
All that combines into a pretty solid card (bottom 25%ile, but very playable). I expect her to see play in standard too fwiw, since games are much grindier than cube and many decks that are grindy might want a civic wayfinder.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
1. Gideon
2. Liliana
3. Jace
..gap..
4. Nissa
5. Chandra
I am probably going to include only the three first ones, because the power drops significantly after that. Nissa might still have a chance, because the amount of green 3-drops that don't cost double green mana is very low. It really pisses me off that she can't search for dual lands though. Why the hell did they put the word "basic" there!?
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Basic is something I would totally expect from wizards on these type of cards. But most of these type of cards are common. This is a #*!?ing legendary planeswalker who is a major figure in magic history and this is the origin card. It absolutely needed to loose the basic part. I also feel they could have let you put the land onto the battlefield tapped and it wouldn't have been too much for the card or for standard. Farseek didn't break standard and the shocks were in it then. There are not Forest duals in standard and I don't expect any in the next 18 months.
I find it interesting to compare these to what I would expect from just the front side.
Nisaa = Borderland Ranger Common
Liliana ~ Xathrid Necormancer Rare
Jace ~ Merfolf Looter, Sigled Starfish Common
Gideon ~ Dragon Hunter, Soldier of the Pantheon Uncommon to Rare
Chandra ~ Gelectrode Uncommon
So the only one that is moddled off of a common is Jace who has a spectacularly easy flip. Nissa has to be better than it looks......hrmmmmm
Probably a closer parallel for chandra is guttersnipe, but he's still uncommon so woo
In what universe is borderland ranger a bad common? Civic Wayfinder was a 4 of, and extremely important card in a pro-tour winning deck that was legal when full powered standard faeries was legal.
People are seriously underestimating this card. A 2/2 that draws you a card and ensures you hit land drops is a fine playable in pretty much every green deck in cube. It smooths your draws, helps with mulligans, holds equipment, and provides an early, relevant road block. In this one, you're trading the ability to fix your mana, for the rather enormous upside of becoming a planeswalker if you hit 7 lands.
Cards that are good in both early in the game and the late gaem are often much better than they appear at first glance.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Again, it's the combination of the two that is important. I've always loved Phyrexian Rager/ Borderland Ranger in my cube decks, as they are card advantage spells that also affect the board on turn 3. They hold a stick as well as anything, and the body is a real thing against the aggressive decks. Against more controlling decks, the card advantage plus a body is very relevant. Obviously a card like this is at it's worst against a deck doing something completely broken, but lots of cards aren't very exciting in those situations.
Ramp decks often have huge issues with flooding and mulligans, and this card helps in both cases. This is just a kind of glue card, that won't enable your most explosive draws, but will just allow you more consistency from game to game.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This pretty much all the way for me. Even if she was 6 lands, or could just fix, she would be so much better. I'm guessing her power was trimmed for constructive reasons (as she does seem like the design that could be best in constructed, if not at her current power level) and cube players suffered for it.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
It is a bummer that her starting loyalty is stupid low, but I like her upside a lot so I'll be making room to try her out myself.
This accurately sums exactly where I'm at with the card too. It helps that these effects are never really dead, and that she replaces herself immediately in terms of card advantage... but she's just really sub-par so often and in so many decks, as good as the flip is. I'll think I'll let others do the testing on this one.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
Agreed. The ability to search for Forest duals or even just any basic land would've improved this so much. For me this is easily the worst of the bunch.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.