The point being made is that if you want a dependable looter, this guy doesn't fill that slot.
I'm not ao aure. I mean, by the time I have 5 cards in my 'yard, I've either looted a lot, or it's later in the game. And in both of those scenarios, the decks where I need looters for combo shenanigans will have provided the utility I need. And like I said, flashing back blue instants and sorceries in your 'yard is another good way to dig if that's what you need to do.
..........
Edit: Also, it's cool to note that in control decks, you can loot early, and once it flips you can Wrath; preventing you from having your looter be a casualty to your sweeper. Another relevant advantage it has over the other looting effects.
I am surprised people don't consider this a 360 staple. I think it becomes the second best 2 drop blue creature. And it is my favorite looter. Really the only concern I have is the amount of Jace cards you have. I think 4 of the same named planeswalker is too many at 450, so baby Jace might be a cut for some, or other might replace a Jace with Tamiyo or Tazzerat.
From a cube perspective this is my second favorite Jace.
This is definitely worth testing. The second power of toughness makes this a decent looter body, and the flipside 'walker looks like a useful suite of abilities for any control (or spells matter) shell. A very good first impression.
I definitely think this card is going to be really really good and will have a instant spot in my cube. I love the mini games these flip walkers have associated with them and this one is super powerful. The only point I was trying to make (and I will stop making at this point since its been said enough) is that I won't be cutting any of my other looters for it.
To be fair, I think the sentiment that it will barely loot more than once or twice is spot on. This could be one of the easier cards to flip. So if you need a hardcore looter than I wouldn't overly depend on this one.
This is true, but this is pretty fringe, as it has to be a deck that
a) Wants a looter
b) Wants a looter (after a single looting has taken place) MORE than a 2 mana super-undercosted planeswalker.
Maybe like a very specific show and tell deck (digging for a key piece is more important than flashing back spells). Living death deck?
But id estimate this is like 1/20 of the decks that actually would play a looter to begin with.
That doesn't make him a bad card at all, but I just can't see this card loots more than 2 or 3 cards very often. For some decks, this could be more than enough, but for some others, it could not be the case. For that reason, I won't count him as a pure looter when balancing archetypes in the cube. That doesn't mean I'm not considering running it or whatever. It is just a diffrent type of card.
To be fair, I think the sentiment that it will barely loot more than once or twice is spot on. This could be one of the easier cards to flip. So if you need a hardcore looter than I wouldn't overly depend on this one.
This is true, but this is pretty fringe, as it has to be a deck that
a) Wants a looter
b) Wants a looter (after a single looting has taken place) MORE than a 2 mana super-undercosted planeswalker.
Maybe like a very specific show and tell deck (digging for a key piece is more important than flashing back spells). Living death deck?
But id estimate this is like 1/20 of the decks that actually would play a looter to begin with.
I would also add:
c) Needs a looter that must activate more than 2-3 times
And most decks that specifically need looters are looking to use it once or twice in the early game to set up a quick graveyard play. Decks that are including looters solely for the purpose of grinding out long-term advantages with the card selection are dedicated control decks. And most of those decks will be happier with the wrath protection against your card investment, the defense against the opponent's attackers, a high-loyalty 'walker on the board and the flashback Jace provides FAR more than the value of looting a couple of extra times. In addition to the value gained by having it gifted an extra toughness for blocking random tokens or dodging 2-for-1s against Arc Trails and the like. It's hard to brainstorm up a final-40 that would want Merfolk Looter over this card in the vast majority of cases.
It's hard to brainstorm up a final-40 that would want Merfolk Looter over this card in the vast majority of cases.
It is not that hard for me. A lot of decks in my cube would consider running both if they had the chance to put their hands on. But I can understand that it may varies a lot from one cube to another.
As a random looter, Baby Jace is better because he offers so much more. But as a digger, the merfolk is way better.
It's hard to brainstorm up a final-40 that would want Merfolk Looter over this card in the vast majority of cases.
It is not that hard for me. A lot of decks in my cube would consider running both if they had the chance to put their hands on.
That's not the same thing as including Merfolk Looter in the deck over Loot Jace though.
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But I can understand that it may varies a lot from one cube to another.
As a random looter, Baby Jace is better because he offers so much more. But as a digger, the merfolk is way better.
Eh, maybe. I mean, at some point I want to switch from dig mode to card advantage mode, which is what makes Cryptologist so much better than Merfolk Looter (well that and the faster looting). I can get that from Loot Jace, but not from a regular Looter. I can dig better by flashing back a good draw spell than I can by replacing Jace with a plain Looting critter. Ymmv, of course, but I can't imagine what my other 39 cards would have to look like before I would ever play Marfolk Looter over this card.
I don't think anyone in this thread is saying they would play Merfolk Looter over PreJace (thats my bid for a nickname). They are saying that adding this card to their cube doesn't mean they aren't going to include merfolk looter too. For example, I am already running three looter effects in my cube and I am adding this one too. I am not cutting a looter for it but I am not not including it. The looting effect isn't as dependable but the card itself is great.
I would love to see the post where someone said they were including Merfolk Looter over PreJace but it doesn't exist in this thread.
There will be plenty of times where I have five cards in the graveyard and I want to keep digging. Maybe they are counters, burn, or ramp spells and I need to find my combo piece? Maybe a fetch land too? What if I draw this midway through the game and still haven't found what I'm looking for. While the other side is amazing, it doesn't help me get to whatever it is I need a looter for. That is why I am going to cut something that isn't a looter for it.
I don't think anyone in this thread is saying they would play Merfolk Looter over PreJace (thats my bid for a nickname).
My point was that there aren't decks that would play Looter that won't play this new Jace first/instead. And if that's the case, Merfolk Looter is a great place to look if you want to cut something that will largely fill the same role but better.
Quote from cuttups »
I would love to see the post where someone said they were including Merfolk Looter over PreJace but it doesn't exist in this thread.
The post you're looking for is my post. I said that you wouldn't play Looter over the new Jace, implying that it's a great cut. Despite not digging for as long, it's a much better looter variant than Merfolk Looter itself. So if you only want to dedicate X looter effects in the cube, this would easily be one of my X before Merfolk Looter/Thought Courier would. That's the point.
I've talked with my group about it and we'll be running micro-Jace in lieu of the Bouncer. My personal ranking of the looters in Cube would be Looter il-Kor, followed by Enclave Cryptologist and then this new Jace. Looter is a crowd favorite because of its ability to carry a sword and deal damage while filtering draws, and Enclave Cryptologist can loot on turn 2, and I've turned it into an Archivist many times. That said, I am willing to change the ranking based on how the new Jace performs. His planeswalker abilities aren't too impressive, but lest we forget, it's the cheapest walker that also has the easiest flip condition of the walkers revealed thus far; I think the card will do work.
I like the new Jace more than Waterfront Bouncer. Bouncer has been in and out of my cube a few times over the years and he's never been overly impressive. I think that says a lot considering that we tend to push the Blink archetype and a few of the guys will P1P1 something like Crystal Shard fairly often.
This card is NUTS! It doesn't do anything insane, but it has an INSANE cost to effect ratio!
I already like a 0/2 Merfolk Looter a little bit more than a 1/1 Merfolk Looter and then you get a really good planeswalker at the low, low cost that you can loot only a limited amount of times? What a bargain! As wtwlf said: A reanimator deck usually needs only to loot once or twice to set up an early reanimation and a control deck would be just as happy - if not more so - with the planeswalker side than with a Looter in play.
Note that the planeswalker side has all the ingredients for a good planeswalker:
A) An ability that protects the walker (and also yourself).
B) An ability that gives you card advantage.
C) An ultimate that acts as a win condition.
I would be hard pressed to say that this new Jace will be good in competitive, constructed decks but he is extremely good in powered cubes. He fuels multiple archetypes and can recast a few powered cards. I think every cube should give him a shot.
I would be hard pressed to say that this new Jace will be good in competitive, constructed decks but he is extremely good in powered cubes. He fuels multiple archetypes and can recast a few powered cards. I think every cube should give him a shot.
Definitely seems better suited for cube (discard outlet and flashback is at a premium).
But.... Like... He's 2 freaking mana! Wouldn't be surprised if people try to make him work in standard.
Would Thassa be a reasonable cut for this Jace? I do plan on ordering one as soon as I can preorder it.
I think most non-broken staples are a good cut for this card. Only the times I have pushed for more of a blue devotion section has Thassa been really good. And I think you will get your card value back faster from this guy. Thassa is hard to get rid of but she excels when you have other permanents.
And what insane developer let this guy out with more than 2-3 starting loyalty. Even then I would play Proto-Jace.
Well, I guess if I had to pick one color from origins to get a good PW, I would have chosen black, so at least I'm glad lilliana looks great on paper, but I really would have preferred, if not a balanced cycle, that white and blue, as the colors that need the least help in this department, got the mediocre PW's. This guy looks like an auto-test, and will probably find a home in most cubes, while Nissa is absolutely horrendous and Chandra, while I think she will be strong in a few decks, is absurdly narrow.
I am very confused by how far apart in power these PW's seem. This might be the flashiest, most important cycle wizards had ever done, and you'd think they'd want the power levels to be a little closer. While it may be true that Chandra ends up better than jace in constructed, it just looks like lilli is a home run for the strongest everywhere (although I don't know if any of these guys will see play in modern) and Nissa is just complete garbage. I'm pretty disappointed with the balance here.
Now, setting that disappointment aside, taking this card in a vacuum, I like it. It's good early for filtering, can block and live slightly better than other looter variants (although obviously can never kill anything), which is relevant against tokens, and late game (assuming it survives, which may be hard for an 0/2) you get to loot, give a spell flashback, and have leftover a PW with 2 loyalty, all for 2 mana. That's pretty good, but fair.
Well, I guess if I had to pick one color from origins to get a good PW, I would have chosen black, so at least I'm glad lilliana looks great on paper, but I really would have preferred, if not a balanced cycle, that white and blue, as the colors that need the least help in this department, got the mediocre PW's. This guy looks like an auto-test, and will probably find a home in most cubes, while Nissa is absolutely horrendous and Chandra, while I think she will be strong in a few decks, is absurdly narrow.
I am very confused by how far apart in power these PW's seem. This might be the flashiest, most important cycle wizards had ever done, and you'd think they'd want the power levels to be a little closer. While it may be true that Chandra ends up better than jace in constructed, it just looks like lilli is a home run for the strongest everywhere (although I don't know if any of these guys will see play in modern) and Nissa is just complete garbage. I'm pretty disappointed with the balance here.
Now, setting that disappointment aside, taking this card in a vacuum, I like it. It's good early for filtering, can block and live slightly better than other looter variants (although obviously can never kill anything), which is relevant against tokens, and late game (assuming it survives, which may be hard for an 0/2) you get to loot, give a spell flashback, and have leftover a PW with 2 loyalty, all for 2 mana. That's pretty good, but fair.
I think this card will be the first real 2 mana planeswalker test case. I know it is a creature first, and we had Tibalt but..... I am absolutely certain this will see some modern play. Not a ton, maybe not right away, and not a four of, but 2 mana in modern is so much less than 3, and light years less than four mana in that format. I can see this thing in combo, control, tempo.... it will find a home.
I'm not ao aure. I mean, by the time I have 5 cards in my 'yard, I've either looted a lot, or it's later in the game. And in both of those scenarios, the decks where I need looters for combo shenanigans will have provided the utility I need. And like I said, flashing back blue instants and sorceries in your 'yard is another good way to dig if that's what you need to do.
..........
Edit: Also, it's cool to note that in control decks, you can loot early, and once it flips you can Wrath; preventing you from having your looter be a casualty to your sweeper. Another relevant advantage it has over the other looting effects.
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From a cube perspective this is my second favorite Jace.
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This is true, but this is pretty fringe, as it has to be a deck that
a) Wants a looter
b) Wants a looter (after a single looting has taken place) MORE than a 2 mana super-undercosted planeswalker.
Maybe like a very specific show and tell deck (digging for a key piece is more important than flashing back spells). Living death deck?
But id estimate this is like 1/20 of the decks that actually would play a looter to begin with.
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I would also add:
c) Needs a looter that must activate more than 2-3 times
And most decks that specifically need looters are looking to use it once or twice in the early game to set up a quick graveyard play. Decks that are including looters solely for the purpose of grinding out long-term advantages with the card selection are dedicated control decks. And most of those decks will be happier with the wrath protection against your card investment, the defense against the opponent's attackers, a high-loyalty 'walker on the board and the flashback Jace provides FAR more than the value of looting a couple of extra times. In addition to the value gained by having it gifted an extra toughness for blocking random tokens or dodging 2-for-1s against Arc Trails and the like. It's hard to brainstorm up a final-40 that would want Merfolk Looter over this card in the vast majority of cases.
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It is not that hard for me. A lot of decks in my cube would consider running both if they had the chance to put their hands on. But I can understand that it may varies a lot from one cube to another.
As a random looter, Baby Jace is better because he offers so much more. But as a digger, the merfolk is way better.
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He's already micro-Jace to us...
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I can't believe he has 5 (or 6) loyalty when he flips. That's huge. Definitely finding room for him alongside my existing looters.
That's not the same thing as including Merfolk Looter in the deck over Loot Jace though.
Eh, maybe. I mean, at some point I want to switch from dig mode to card advantage mode, which is what makes Cryptologist so much better than Merfolk Looter (well that and the faster looting). I can get that from Loot Jace, but not from a regular Looter. I can dig better by flashing back a good draw spell than I can by replacing Jace with a plain Looting critter. Ymmv, of course, but I can't imagine what my other 39 cards would have to look like before I would ever play Marfolk Looter over this card.
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I would love to see the post where someone said they were including Merfolk Looter over PreJace but it doesn't exist in this thread.
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My point was that there aren't decks that would play Looter that won't play this new Jace first/instead. And if that's the case, Merfolk Looter is a great place to look if you want to cut something that will largely fill the same role but better.
The post you're looking for is my post. I said that you wouldn't play Looter over the new Jace, implying that it's a great cut. Despite not digging for as long, it's a much better looter variant than Merfolk Looter itself. So if you only want to dedicate X looter effects in the cube, this would easily be one of my X before Merfolk Looter/Thought Courier would. That's the point.
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I already like a 0/2 Merfolk Looter a little bit more than a 1/1 Merfolk Looter and then you get a really good planeswalker at the low, low cost that you can loot only a limited amount of times? What a bargain! As wtwlf said: A reanimator deck usually needs only to loot once or twice to set up an early reanimation and a control deck would be just as happy - if not more so - with the planeswalker side than with a Looter in play.
Note that the planeswalker side has all the ingredients for a good planeswalker:
A) An ability that protects the walker (and also yourself).
B) An ability that gives you card advantage.
C) An ultimate that acts as a win condition.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Definitely seems better suited for cube (discard outlet and flashback is at a premium).
But.... Like... He's 2 freaking mana! Wouldn't be surprised if people try to make him work in standard.
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I think most non-broken staples are a good cut for this card. Only the times I have pushed for more of a blue devotion section has Thassa been really good. And I think you will get your card value back faster from this guy. Thassa is hard to get rid of but she excels when you have other permanents.
And what insane developer let this guy out with more than 2-3 starting loyalty. Even then I would play Proto-Jace.
Blame Adam, he loves Merfolk Looter (he signed mine.)
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I am very confused by how far apart in power these PW's seem. This might be the flashiest, most important cycle wizards had ever done, and you'd think they'd want the power levels to be a little closer. While it may be true that Chandra ends up better than jace in constructed, it just looks like lilli is a home run for the strongest everywhere (although I don't know if any of these guys will see play in modern) and Nissa is just complete garbage. I'm pretty disappointed with the balance here.
Now, setting that disappointment aside, taking this card in a vacuum, I like it. It's good early for filtering, can block and live slightly better than other looter variants (although obviously can never kill anything), which is relevant against tokens, and late game (assuming it survives, which may be hard for an 0/2) you get to loot, give a spell flashback, and have leftover a PW with 2 loyalty, all for 2 mana. That's pretty good, but fair.
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I think this card will be the first real 2 mana planeswalker test case. I know it is a creature first, and we had Tibalt but..... I am absolutely certain this will see some modern play. Not a ton, maybe not right away, and not a four of, but 2 mana in modern is so much less than 3, and light years less than four mana in that format. I can see this thing in combo, control, tempo.... it will find a home.