MTG Salvation

Quote from ahadabans »

There seems to be a lot of love for this card in the THIS OR THAT thread. Have people changed their minds on this card? Because this thread certainly seems fairly negative.

My love for this card has not increased, but I still like it more than some of the cards it was being compared to in the This or That thread.

Quote from BelerenRules »

Best. Fatty. Ever.

I'm going to have to disagree. Cube is full of fatties I prefer, like Elesh Norn, Tasigur, Dragonlord Atarka, Primus, four Titans, etc. This is just OK.

Cheers,
rant

Most. Okayest. Middling. Creature. Ever.

This is a fine niche constructed creature for decks that are capable of spilling 7 cards into their own 'yard by T3 with regularity. In the cube, where you pay 3-4 mana on average for this card in the middle of the game, it's fair at best.

I still think this card is a good card in medium to large cubes. I like it better than tombstalker, but i only really want 1 black delve fatty at 360, and tasigur wins due to utility. I don't think I've ever cast tasigur for 2B or more without it being a good play... Saying this is a 3B drop is just wrong. Its almost always a mid-late game B drop, but it has the upside of being able to be cast earlier for less of a discount. The next point of debate someone always brings up is, well a 5/5 for B is bad mid-lategame, which is also completely false. People flip their lids over that new priest because you can spend a couple mana to combo it and get a cheap 5/5 flying demon. A fatty for 1 is still great lategame, as it allows you to keep up mana for protection, or lay another threat. I'd probably be happy slotting this in to most of my black decks in cube, as a second tasigur.

Quote from Incendiaryspade »

I'd probably be happy slotting this in to most of my black decks in cube, as a second tasigur.

This isn't anywhere remotely close to Tasigur. Not only is it more expensive, but you lose the ability that makes Tasigur actually good.

Angler is a fine card, but a mid-late game vanilla creature isn't really what I'm looking for. And the evasion on Tombstalker was far more relevant than the cost. When this isn't coming down until later, the lack of any useful abilities really crippled the validity of the card.

In the cube, delve cards will cost half their converted mana cost on average in the mid-game, give or take. Which is why this card costing 2B to 3B for a vanilla 5/5 just isn't great. It's fine at the very end of the curve, but the mid-game value on this card is so ...middling.

We have very different experiences with tasigur then. His ability is gravy most of the time to us, and being a 4/5 for B on turn 3 or 4 is the reason he is great, he's seen play in decks without U or G and been pretty good. I just think our experiences are completely different with this card and the delve mechanic. playing this guy or tasigur for 3B or 2B seems much closer to WCS then ACS.

Clearly we have very different experiences. I'd never play Tasigur in a deck that can't activate it. And I don't know how you're getting 5 cards in your 'yard by turn 3 on average for Delving Tasigur out, but I'd be interested to see your average game roll out in which that's the case. That's the rate that constructed decks spill their cards on average to play their delve spells, and this format can't do that consistently. About 1.5 cards/turn being binned would be slightly above average for the cube (that would be in decks with fetches, cantrips and proactive disruption spells). So casting Tasigur for B is usually a T4-5 play on the early side in this format. He is cast for 2B on turns 3-4 more often than not, and Angler having a higher mana cost would either delay the spell by a turn or add 1 to his cost on average.

I mean, a perfect curve of fetchland -> cantrip, 2cc spell, 1cc spell + 2cc spell has still only spilled 5 cards to the bin by the end of turn 3. How you're playing Tasigur for B on T3/4 on average in this format I'll never know. And Angler costs more...

Tasigur's ability is expensive. It doesn't get used that often over here either.

As far as getting him out early, that only happens with an early Stinkweed Imp dredge or other self mill mechanic (Hedron Crab), otherwise I'm with wtwlf that casting him on T3 for B is very unlikely in your average cube (even if running double fetch lands).

In certain match ups, Tasigur gets activated 1+ time a turn. In others, he's a 4/5 for a low(er) cost. I wouldn't say it's rare in my experience, but Tasigur is not activating in every game, even if he lives to untag.

It's not impossible for t3 casting of either, but I agree with the others, that's an idea situation if you're casting either off of 3 lands and the rest delve.

Quote from Incendiaryspade »

I still think this card is a good card in medium to large cubes. I like it better than tombstalker, but i only really want 1 black delve fatty at 360, and tasigur wins due to utility. I don't think I've ever cast tasigur for 2B or more without it being a good play... Saying this is a 3B drop is just wrong. Its almost always a mid-late game B drop, but it has the upside of being able to be cast earlier for less of a discount. The next point of debate someone always brings up is, well a 5/5 for B is bad mid-lategame, which is also completely false. People flip their lids over that new priest because you can spend a couple mana to combo it and get a cheap 5/5 flying demon. A fatty for 1 is still great lategame, as it allows you to keep up mana for protection, or lay another threat. I'd probably be happy slotting this in to most of my black decks in cube, as a second tasigur.

I'll take Tombstalker over this any day. The reason Priest of the Blood Rite was so lauded is because getting the evasive power is what's great. It (and Tombstalker) win games that a vanilla 5/5 won't be able to.

Whenever I've tried tombstalker, BB really, really sucked. I'd definitely play this over tombstalker. I know what you are thinking, BB is really easy, your mana bases are *****. But usually the problem was playing a black spell and tombstalker on the same turn, GftT on baneslayer, tombstalker, and it proved a large drawback. I'd much prefer consistency to evasion.

I agree that the BB cost of Stalker makes it a bit more difficult to cast than Angler. But, I don't really have interest in running Tombstalker as is anymore, so one less B at the cost of flying isn't a big enough selling point for me to run it.

The evasion makes all the difference in the world. If I'm waiting for a full graveyard and/or paying 3+ mana for my threat, I'd much rather pay the extra black to make it actually relevant instead of just being a big dork. Tombstalker has continued to be fantastic, and the evasion is the reason why it's good. Just like the activated ability is the reason why Tasigur's good. Big vanilla dorks aren't great unless they can come down early and/or scale as the game progresses. The evasion is critical.

Tombstalker is a lot better than Angler imo. Its a fantastic curve topper for aggro. Regularly costs 2-4 mana.

Gurmag Angler was discussed Here in the Random Cube Card of the Day thread. Why not delve into the thread and see what you come up with?

(Spoiler: More of a pauper/peasent cube card.)

What do folks think of ol’ Gurmy (and Tombstalker) in 2022? It’s the type of card that, in my opinion, may have gotten better in the past couple years. Curves are lower, and double-spelling in the mid-game is very powerful, which the delve guys allow you to do. Murktide Regent has been great for us which put the black delve creatures back on the map for me.

I agree with steve_man. Gurmag is third behind Tasigur and Tombstalker for B delve creatures and there are just so many others like Kroxa (not technically delve) Murktide Regent, etc that having him is just not great.

You all are probably right. I’ve been high on Mama Tass and the other delve/GY creatures, but the Gurm is much worse.

I think without rarity to consider, I would always just go with Tasigur, the Golden Fang. He is a bit smaller, but I've rarely found myself thinking "if only my Tasigur had +2/+1", where as his ability has definitly came in very handy.

Size matters, but not as much as you think. Both are outside of burn range for the most part and it's a narrow band of creatures that can block/be-blocked by one but not the other.

I don't think I'm in the market for a second black delver in my cube, and if I was I would lean towards Tombstalker because of its evasion, I'd value that over a second beefy ground pounder.

Gurmag Angler was popular in Legacy (prior to Murktide) because it dodges Karakas and its 5/5 was incredibly important when the rest of the format was playing Gurmay Angler from the mirror, Reality Smasher, Tarmogoyf etc.

My experience in cube is Tasigur is the best of the bunch primarily because Taisgur can consistent come down on turn 3, while Angular/ TomeStalker struggle.